Bush Administration's latest excuse...

[Master Zen]

The UN was never meant to be a police, it was meant to be an arbitrer and to solve world problems multilateraly. Thanks to the veto power it has not way of performing this role.

And Fez: the US may be the police, it may be a fact of life, but not for one moment does it mean we have to accept it or tolerate it.

[Giancarlo]

Well Zen, I accept it.

[mindseye]

Imran wrote of Saddam:

Dangerous in long term goals.

Unfortunately, that's not what the administration said. They said that Iraq posed a pressing, imminent threat to the USA. At least that's what they told Congress.


Some vintage Donald Rumsfeld:

"No one I know in this administration ever claimed that Saddam had nuclear weapons."

It was **** Cheney who made the claim.


"Hesitation could lead to war."

So not hesitating to go to war could somehow avoid war? At least he was a man of his word, about two weeks later we were at war.

[HershOstropoler]

MtG:

"You mean you think there will be a free election in Iraq? I thought much more highly of you. Every candidate in the show will be one of our boys, or in there just as a patsy."

Of course not. I think there will be a half-free election for exactly the reason that the neocons won't tolerate what I described as the result of a free election. Of course that policy adds to the potential of turning Iraq into Lebanon. Also, even your puppets might turn against you - wouldn't be the first time. But it's a virtual guarantee for a fiasco either way.

"The neocons didn't want the stinking resolution - they got exactly what they wanted. The UN was painted into a corner of killing it's credibility by getting on it's knees to US policy demands"

I consider that to be their preferred option, but I might be wrong on this one. It was the goal of the state department side of the issue.

"If the US really needed their approval, the bribe amounts would have gone up until they rolled over."

Why didn't that work with Turkey?

"So they do it out of charity?"

I'll spare you the headshaking smileys. It's funny that you'd fall for Wall street propaganda on that one.
It's a function of dollar recycling, not some kind of new economy pull. But ok, tell me, how are US investments more attractive?

"Or as a form of "constructive engagement." (I'm dating myself a bit, but I'm pretty sure you'll pick up on that one)"

I don't think constructive engagement or critical dialogue will work with Bush's America.

"As Master Zen pointed out - it is realised by being driven by perception. The underlying accuracy of the perception isn't important."

Until someone shouts that the emperor is naked.

"If it really comes down to it, they get reamed hard. It will just cost the US quite a bit more than it's worth. We do have the capacity to stick it to them, but that really stretches things to the limit and compromises occupation of Iraq."

And I wish you a lot of fun with the occupation of Iran. The Israelis really enjoyed their vacation in the shiite part of Lebanon.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
MtG:
But it's a virtual guarantee for a fiasco either way.

As long as the fiasco happens after election day, there's four years to find something to distract the public and prep for Jeb. We should rename him to George though, so we'd have our George III all over again.

"If the US really needed their approval, the bribe amounts would have gone up until they rolled over."

Why didn't that work with Turkey?

We could have paid them more. In the end, the US figured the extra loss of life from the delayed entry of those forces wouldn't be that big, and that the war didn't depend on it, so we saved the money.

"So they do it out of charity?"

I'll spare you the headshaking smileys. It's funny that you'd fall for Wall street propaganda on that one.
It's a function of dollar recycling, not some kind of new economy pull. But ok, tell me, how are US investments more attractive?

I can't resist that sort of troll. It gets you every time.

"Or as a form of "constructive engagement." (I'm dating myself a bit, but I'm pretty sure you'll pick up on that one)"

I don't think constructive engagement or critical dialogue will work with Bush's America.

Probably about as effectively as it worked with Botha's RSA.

"As Master Zen pointed out - it is realised by being driven by perception. The underlying accuracy of the perception isn't important."

Until someone shouts that the emperor is naked.

In the US, people would denounce that as unpatriotic, all the talk show types would debate it to death and fuzzify the issue, the admin press secretary would say it's just a new kind of transparent clothing, then most people would go watch the next reality show or pro wrestling.

"If it really comes down to it, they get reamed hard. It will just cost the US quite a bit more than it's worth. We do have the capacity to stick it to them, but that really stretches things to the limit and compromises occupation of Iraq."

And I wish you a lot of fun with the occupation of Iran. The Israelis really enjoyed their vacation in the shiite part of Lebanon.

Actually, man for man, Iran wouldn't be much worse than Iraq, but the logistics are a pain in the ass due to all the mountains.

[HershOstropoler]

"As long as the fiasco happens after election day, there's four years to find something to distract the public"

Yup. But didn't you say you expect the madness of king George to be corrected in the political process?

"I can't resist that sort of troll. It gets you every time. "

"Get" is exaggerated. But I can't let it stand, that's true.

"Probably about as effectively as it worked with Botha's RSA."

Roughly.

"In the US, people would denounce that as unpatriotic, all the talk show types would debate it to death and fuzzify the issue, the admin press secretary would say it's just a new kind of transparent clothing, then most people would go watch the next reality show or pro wrestling."

The initial point was about perception of hegemonial power, or?

"Actually, man for man, Iran wouldn't be much worse than Iraq, but the logistics are a pain in the ass due to all the mountains."

3 times the population, 3 or 4 times the land area, mountains, a better equipped and motivated enemy. And that's just for starters. Of course Iran is another 3rd world country, but a somewhat tougher one than Iraq.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"As long as the fiasco happens after election day, there's four years to find something to distract the public"

Yup. But didn't you say you expect the madness of king George to be corrected in the political process?

Hope. Not expect until I have an idea what the Dems will do to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory this time.

"I can't resist that sort of troll. It gets you every time. "

"Get" is exaggerated. But I can't let it stand, that's true.

Get is close enough.

"In the US, people would denounce that as unpatriotic, all the talk show types would debate it to death and fuzzify the issue, the admin press secretary would say it's just a new kind of transparent clothing, then most people would go watch the next reality show or pro wrestling."

The initial point was about perception of hegemonial power, or?

The perception about hegemonial power by the outside world. The ass-kissing, etc. The latter is about how the American people would respond to the notion that the US isn't the hegemon we/they think it is.

"Actually, man for man, Iran wouldn't be much worse than Iraq, but the logistics are a pain in the ass due to all the mountains."

3 times the population, 3 or 4 times the land area, mountains, a better equipped and motivated enemy. And that's just for starters. Of course Iran is another 3rd world country, but a somewhat tougher one than Iraq.

As far as a war goes, they're still ****. Occupation's another mess, but it doesn't get the news attention of the Fox cheerleading squad, or the American public.

[Vandal-1]

Perhaps with much of thee Arab teritory not under their controle as much as it is under the controle of outsiders(Interim Authorities) post hoc an armoured division,the Arab people want controle of thier lands,while radical theocrats long for a former empire in all its greatness. (as for the theocrats and Sultanates) Operating on Engrained trditions as the base of their power( as is the individuals choice....)They administer a paralell government which funds ,recruits , and , trains hostile cadres. since to many Arabs, if it would affect Arab controle of Arab lands then may be it will be the choice of the other Arab peoples also.Now they must choose. The power of the paralell government will now increase,as it is most representative of the will of the people.The validity of the Iran -Iraqii, border wll probably fall into question as Iran is utilized as a safe haven for paramiltary organizations.This will justify strikes into a expanding area.

[DAVOUT]

Secondly, I don't know you.

I was not aware that the Apolyton protocol required to be introduced … Forget it

And thirdly, is English your second language? It is for me, but at least state things clearly so everybody can understand.

Yes English is my second language, jibberish is the first one

Davout then should get pass his dyslexia if he wants to discuss with me.

Is not that an arrogant attitude, forbidding a poor guy suffering a terrible disease to discuss with you?

[Whaleboy]

"The US is the police. Even I can't deny that. Live with it. That is how it is."

It is a sad life in my opinion when people work solely with "woulds" instead of "coulds" and in my case, "shoulds". The US should NOT be the sole global policeman, the fact that it is so, is entirely irrelevant to the argument against, except perhaps for it being a causal necessary condition for its existence.

If people just "lived with it", it being stuff that they presumably thought was wrong, then humanity would be a pretty boring, stagnant, and unprogressive race. Fortunately, that is not the case as there are people around who are not blinded by "woulds", and live by "shoulds". I should form an idealistic movement: The Lennon Ressurection!

[Giancarlo]

Well Elijah, I accept it because the US is the valid force there and can enforce things keeping this world safe. Yes they should be the sole global policeman.

[Whaleboy]

"Well Elijah, I accept it because the US is the valid force there and can enforce things keeping this world safe. Yes they should be the sole global policeman."

It is not the valid policeforce, by the very fact that it is one nation with its own natural unilateral interests. As such, it is subjective, whereas the UN was objective. Instead of disbanding it, I think we should make the UN stronger, changing its form so other nations can no longer circumvent this "court".

"can enforce things keeping this world safe"

My point is that it leaves "safe" and "dangerous" down to the interpretation of one subjective nation, that isnt obligated to take into account the views of others. For example using its logic to go to war with Iraq, the US would go to war with lots of dangerous dictators, and would condemn actions in its past where it collaborated with them, like General Soeharto in indonesia (yet still the two million communists and socialists massacred with the help of the CIA goes largely undocumented in Western circles... it helped GAP after all).

There should be a unilateral, objective force that takes into account all arguments, where unilateralist concerns are not taken into account. You yourself must surely admit that America is a capitalist nation, and is thus open to capitalist interests. As such, as the policeman, or any position of official or practised power in the world, it is very open to corruption, and the people that suffer because of it? The rest of world, especially the poor.

No, the UN and its likes are the way to go.

[Whaleboy]

" There should be a unilateral, objective force"

Sorry I meant multilateral there

[ThePlagueRat]

And what if "The Policeman" causes a WW ?

There is reason for concern, you know.....

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by elijah
"Well Elijah, I accept it because the US is the valid force there and can enforce things keeping this world safe. Yes they should be the sole global policeman."

It is not the valid policeforce, by the very fact that it is one nation with its own natural unilateral interests. As such, it is subjective, whereas the UN was objective. Instead of disbanding it, I think we should make the UN stronger, changing its form so other nations can no longer circumvent this "court".

The UN are a bunch of corrupt whores who can't even peacekeep their way out of a wet paper bag. UN "Peacekeepers" taken hostage by ****ing African rebels, and the UN having to go in on it's knees and ask nicely if we can please have them back safely?

Or how about the Belgie paras who cut the UN insignia of their uniforms with their combat knives, then stepped on them, as an expression of disgust at how their hands were tied in dealing with the Rwandan genocide?

"can enforce things keeping this world safe"

My point is that it leaves "safe" and "dangerous" down to the interpretation of one subjective nation, that isnt obligated to take into account the views of others.

(snip)

There should be a unilateral, objective force that takes into account all arguments, where unilateralist concerns are not taken into account.

That would be nice, but until we're colonized by benevolent and enlightened aliens, we're kinda SOL here.

You yourself must surely admit that America is a capitalist nation, and is thus open to capitalist interests. As such, as the policeman, or any position of official or practised power in the world, it is very open to corruption, and the people that suffer because of it? The rest of world, especially the poor.

No, the UN and its likes are the way to go.

A corrupt bureaucracy paralyzed by a "management by committee" approach? Tell me, how hard has the UN slammed Mugabe, for just one example?