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Bush Administration's latest excuse...

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  • "Because them blowing up buildings is something we should be promoting?"

    Of course not. You dont hurt them with foreign policy, they wont do it.

    "Their oppresive nature is something we should tolerate?"

    Yes. Feel free to critisise it, or even take non-drastic measures against it (but be advised to take moral and well thought out measures). If the people want it changed, then it will be changed. If they dont or show no sign, then you have no right to waltz in there and change it.

    "It's time we draw a line in the sand"

    No it isnt. It never is. It is simply none of your nations business!

    "If they didn't have oil, they would have changed long time ago... or else they would have died"

    So it is about oil then?

    "When we decide we've had enough, we can go in and try to make things right"

    No you cant. Sure you can physically and you have the means as a powerful military, but ideally, you shouldnt, and you wouldnt be able to take such agressive, judgemental acts.

    "He who sets himself up as judge of a man will be shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods" - einstein.

    In the absense of the gods, I'm laughing.

    "We let them do what they wanted for years now, but after 9/11 it just isn't good enough."

    9/11 was an attack by a small number of individuals. Sure it kicked you where it hurts and it damaged your pride, another Pearl Harbour, but at the end of the day, it is no excuse to waltz in and change regimes. It is especially no excuse to go around changing societies, cultures, governments, simply because you dont like them on moral grounds. Im sorry but your morals are entirely subjective, and arent shared by everyone in the world. The sooner America ceases to assume otherwise, the better.

    Meantime, if you are that scared about terrorism (which actually causes relatively little collateral... compare 9/11 with a single night of the blitz), then beef up internel security and intelligence. Sure it wont win votes, but it'll work.
    "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
    "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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    • It is an excuse to change regimes (at least in Iraq) to me. We've stood by and let them get away with crap for too long 'because they had oil'. No more of that. We should push for more democratization and at the same time, less support for fundamentalism.

      At the VERY least, less support for fundamentalism. We've already been struck in Africa, New York (twice), our citizens in Indonesia. Governments that look the other way when these people camp out in their countries should be told that this won't be tolerated.

      Then they are given the choice. Either harbor terrorist groups or do business with the US. And if you pick doing nothing about terrorists, then don't be suprised if relations get MUCH worse before they get better. We probably won't attack another country, but we will engage in the war of rhetoric.

      At the very least, the regime change in Iraq was politically easy and showed how serious we are about this. This isn't going to be another lob a few hundred bombs and forget about it sort of thing.
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Lonestar


        Well, if you ever have a question about NSA, DIA, or Naval Intelligence come ask me next time.

        "Who killed Kennedy?"

        None of your damn buisness.
        I though the usual answer under these circumstances was "If I told you, I'd have to kill you!"
        A true ally stabs you in the front.

        Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)

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        • "It is an excuse to change regimes (at least in Iraq) to me"

          Why? Because they are a dictatorship? If so, please read the rest of this thread.

          "We've stood by and let them get away with crap for too long"

          You were never in a moral or legal position to NOT "let them get away with cr@p" as you put it. This crap, is part of another culture, which you have replaced with your own, which the Iraqis are rejecting.

          "We should push for more democratization"

          Why? Nothing holy about democracy, especially a culture whose only experience with it has been disastrous!

          "Governments that look the other way when these people camp out in their countries should be told that this won't be tolerated"

          Good! Am I to take it that you support a change in foreign policy that WONT antagonise these people? Of course, a pretty major part, if not the major part is no more preemptive wars, because thats been pretty good at antagonising people thus far!

          "Either harbor terrorist groups or do business with the US"

          Out of the two, I rather you use coins rather than bullets.

          "we will engage in the war of rhetoric"

          Good, thats got more of a chance of changing things willingly from within, if the reasoning is good enough. If not, well, sticks and stones.

          "At the very least, the regime change in Iraq was politically easy and showed how serious we are about this"



          Wait for a few years on that one. Seriously you got my laughing out loud now, you'll wake up my cat!

          Iraq will be hugely difficult, imo, nigh on impossible for the US at least. The UN stands a much better chance.
          "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
          "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            At the very least, the regime change in Iraq was politically easy and showed how serious we are about this. This isn't going to be another lob a few hundred bombs and forget about it sort of thing.
            That's both shortsighted and niave, in the long run the US has (probally) changed nothing except create more martyrs

            Comment


            • Sure it kicked you where it hurts and it damaged your pride, another Pearl Harbour, but at the end of the day, it is no excuse to waltz in and change regimes.
              Why not?
              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DinoDoc
                Sure it kicked you where it hurts and it damaged your pride, another Pearl Harbour, but at the end of the day, it is no excuse to waltz in and change regimes.
                Why not?
                Because that sort of attitude was a factor in 9/11 happening in the first place

                Comment


                • Originally posted by reds4ever
                  Because that sort of attitude was a factor in 9/11 happening in the first place
                  I thought self-defense was looked on as a good thing. Silly me.
                  I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                  For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DinoDoc
                    I thought self-defense was looked on as a good thing. Silly me.
                    Tell me please what Iraq had to do with 9/11...
                    A true ally stabs you in the front.

                    Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DinoDoc
                      I thought self-defense was looked on as a good thing. Silly me.
                      you really don't get it do you? if you'd (we'd) have left them alone in the first place..

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Master Zen
                        Tell me please what Iraq had to do with 9/11...
                        I wasn't thinking about Iraq. elijah mentioned 9/11 and I thought it was obvious that we were talking about Afghanistan.
                        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DinoDoc
                          I wasn't thinking about Iraq. elijah mentioned 9/11 and I thought it was obvious that we were talking about Afghanistan.
                          I'd check back through the posts if I were you....

                          Comment


                          • Every thread starts when I get to it.
                            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                            Comment


                            • Did you read the article on page 1 DinoDoc? Wolfowitz himself said that the US presence in Saudi Arabia was one of the reasons of al-Qaeda doing what it does. So, don't you think THEY had a right to self-defense too at a perceived threat?

                              Every argument you and others can give to support silly wars like this can backfire when looking from the other side of the fence.
                              A true ally stabs you in the front.

                              Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DinoDoc
                                Every thread starts when I get to it.
                                yeah, ok, good answer...
                                A true ally stabs you in the front.

                                Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)

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