Announcement

**Lonestar** · May 28, 2003, 21:53

Elijah, the NSA breaks codes, although I cannot speak for what goes on at Langley...

**Whaleboy** · May 28, 2003, 21:54

"In the long run they would like stable democracies. I think that's clear... everyone wants that. In the short run, they'd settle for a neutral dictator (ie, doesn't have to be pro-American, but definetly cannot be anti-American)."

Would appear that Arab opinion, and the reactions of the Iraqis on the ground is countering that speculation.

**South killer** · May 28, 2003, 21:55

Suddenly becoming the victim of terrorists that take thousands of lives can do that to you.

i am really sorry about 9/11 but that isn't an excuse to continue with your imperialist actitudes towards 3rd world countries. Irak wasn't a threath to the world, hadnn't got MDW, There is no proof of it to be linked to international terrorism (except a report that was proved to be an essay from an university student

), The iraquis don't seem in better condition that before as all their resourses are being looted by foreign industries, the infraestructure is in shambles, their country is in anarchy and when they protest agains US they are shoot by yanquee soldiers.

Do you, americans, ever wonder why most of the world HATES you? Do you think they are just envidious ?! Or is perhaps for something you've done?

I've got the answer: It's because your imperialist foreign policies!!!!! Don't believe all the propaganda your government tells you; You aren't the bastion of democracy, it's the opposite thing. Ypu've installed more puppet dictatorships that any other country in the world.
Also remember that in the 80's the USA aided Saddam economycally and fueled the Iran-Irak war, that lasted 10 years.

**Whaleboy** · May 28, 2003, 21:56

"Elijah, the NSA breaks codes"

My mistake, the CIA spys. I dunno one of the RAOL's does it (random association of letters). My point is that America has, and has been using that capability.

**reds4ever** · May 28, 2003, 21:57

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

But do they want 'reforming'?

I believe so. At the very least get rid of the dictators that help out of the fundy's. In the long run they would like stable democracies. I think that's clear... everyone wants that. In the short run, they'd settle for a neutral dictator (ie, doesn't have to be pro-American, but definetly cannot be anti-American).

History says otherwise..IMO we just don't understand these people on a fundamental level

**Lonestar** · May 28, 2003, 21:59

Originally posted by elijah
"Elijah, the NSA breaks codes"

My mistake, the CIA spys. I dunno one of the RAOL's does it (random association of letters). My point is that America has, and has been using that capability.

Well, if you ever have a question about NSA, DIA, or Naval Intelligence come ask me next time.

"Who killed Kennedy?"

None of your damn buisness.

**Whaleboy** · May 28, 2003, 21:59

8 years IIRC, and it was probably the single greatest factor for Saddam staying in power so long. He was another of America's puppet dictatorships. Bring back memories of some guy in a cave with a beard?

SK: Couldnt have put it better. If you want to stop the terrorism, change the foreign policy, and give it time. The best defence against terrorism is good homeland security (to a point) and good intelligence (hint hint).

**Imran Siddiqui** · May 28, 2003, 21:59

Would appear that Arab opinion, and the reactions of the Iraqis on the ground is countering that speculation.

As long as we put in a good effort this time (and don't just leave), I think we can make it work.

History says otherwise..IMO we are just don't understand these people on a fundamental level

Perhaps but they MUST change! They can't go on like this, and now is the best chance we have in the foreseeable future to start that change.

**Whaleboy** · May 28, 2003, 22:05

"As long as we put in a good effort this time (and don't just leave), I think we can make it work"

They hate you, they hate your presence, they hate you for what you have done, they feel assaulted, they feel violated. They didnt like Saddam Hussein, thats for sure, but talking to some of my Iraqi friends, they say that at least he was a fellow Arab. This "project" is pretty much doomed to failure as I been saying all along, and I just dont believe that even with the best of intentions (which I doubt they have), America wont make this work, the way they are doing it.

"Perhaps but they MUST change!"

Why? Sure they dont conform to your sociological paramaters and sure they live in a society you might describe as primitive, and sure they do things differently to you, but that makes it no less valid. For you to force your subjective on them is ludicrous! They hold the same opinions about US society, who is to say is correct? Yet you, as an equal subjective, have been judge, jury and executioner!

**reds4ever** · May 28, 2003, 22:09

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Perhaps but they MUST change! .

Isn't that up to them? We only assume they aspire (sp) to a western-type democracy because it works for us.

**Imran Siddiqui** · May 28, 2003, 22:09

Why?

Because them blowing up buildings is something we should be promoting? Their oppresive nature is something we should tolerate? Their ruthless treatment of minorities is something we should turn our heads from? It's time we draw a line in the sand. If they didn't have oil, they would have changed long time ago... or else they would have died.

Yet you, as an equal subjective, have been judge, jury and executioner!

Yep... that's a good part about being hegemon. When we decide we've had enough, we can go in and try to make things right. We let them do what they wanted for years now, but after 9/11 it just isn't good enough.

**reds4ever** · May 28, 2003, 22:17

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Why?

Because them blowing up buildings is something we should be promoting? Their oppresive nature is something we should tolerate? Their ruthless treatment of minorities is something we should turn our heads from? It's time we draw a line in the sand. If they didn't have oil, they would have changed long time ago... or else they would have died.

Yet you, as an equal subjective, have been judge, jury and executioner!

Yep... that's a good part about being hegemon. When we decide we've had enough, we can go in and try to make things right. We let them do what they wanted for years now, but after 9/11 it just isn't good enough.

Imran, if you think the US should install a puppet dictator in as many of these 'problem' states as possible, just say so. Just don't wrap it up in this "Operation Iraqi Freedom - Democracy -Liberation" nonsense

**Imran Siddiqui** · May 28, 2003, 22:19

Imran, if you think the US should install puppet dictator in as many of these 'problem' states as possible, just say so.

But that's NOT the #1 aim! The #1 aim is a Turkey like democracy (preventing religious parties). The friendly dictator is a fallback. Puppet dictators are more trouble than they are worth... and is the fallback fallback.

**reds4ever** · May 28, 2003, 22:22

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[q]and is the fallback fallback.

I've never heard that phrase before

**Imran Siddiqui** · May 28, 2003, 22:24

Well it's better than saying 'The O'**** option'

Announcement

Bush Administration's latest excuse...

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment