Immigration

[Whaleboy]

" Persecute any people that would carry out actions that are against the law, but are the way according to their beliefs.

If parents insist on teaching their kids things that are obviously wrong, but part of their culture like "women should be subjegated", etc. steps will be taken to stop this"

Ah!! Was wondering how long it would take for someone to use this thread as a means to get at Islam. If its not illegal, and all sides agree to it (the women and those who would oppress them), then it can happen. Whatever we think as another culture is irrelevant to then, and as it is not the law, we have no business in forcing our beliefs on others.

With regards to crimes, we should prosecute the perpetrators, not the entire community. The community should be helped so they do not generate such terrorists. I take it you are referring to the Palestinians?

[Whaleboy]

It doesnt mean we have to live by their values, it means we can choose to, and it would be socially acceptable (as horrific that concept is to me ).

For example, my interest in buddism would not have been acceptable, or at least, would have been looked on as curious and eccentric 150 years ago, but today, it is not, because buddhism and its concepts are relatively mainstream in society. That is not to say that one has to be mainstream, but im sure you catch my drift... gotta go watch tv....

[Agathon]

The BNP is a creature partly born out of bad policy decisions. Often it's been the case that immigration policy takes no account of cultural norms and thus admits people who have radically different customs and mores than the locals. This can create a lot of trouble.

In countries like the United States and Canada which are composed almost wholly of immigrants, people from different cultures tend to mix very well.

In countries where there has been a long standing cultural norm connected to the indigenous inhabitants or a well established colonising group it is harder to get a multicultural society proper going because the locals have the idea that it is their country so it's their way or the highway - hence the vitriol at those who won't integrate.

In New Zealand, which is a reasonably diverse country everyone gets on pretty well. However, there has been a lot of complaining about excessive Asian immigration over the past 10-15 years. One complaint is that the immigrants keep to themselves and don't integrate well into New Zealand society another is that they are terrible drivers. The first complaint is somewhat justified, the second wholly so. Many of these immigrants don't speak English at all well and this hampers their integration into New Zealand society.

What's bizarrely funny is that there are a lot of Chinese people in New Zealand who are the descendents of those who came during the gold rush 150 years ago. These people are wholly integrated into New Zealand society and more than once I've heard some of them unselfconsiously complain about "these bloody Asians" who are ruining the country.

[Shi Huangdi]

Immigration into Europe is a topic that interests me. As I understand, Europe is undergoing a large influx of Islamic immigrants. Islamic immigrants come in at a high rate and then have a birth rate substantially higher then the native population. I have heard in some cases Islamic immigrants integrate poorly and reject the secularism around them. In Britain there was a case where a hard-line Islamic group dedicated to seeting up an Islamic State in Britain orchestrated a suicide bombing in Israel. In France I know there have been some cases where Islamic youths have attacked the country's Jewish population. I think the European countries, with some interest in preserving a free and secular state, may wish to formulate policies so as to avoid ever having an Islamic majority sometime down the road.

"Why? Is there any rational reason for that, or is it merely based on prejudices. "

For Moslems they have the Koran, which the Islamic religion universally teaches is the absolute truth revealed words of Allah.

[Imran Siddiqui]

another is that they are terrible drivers.

Man, if that was a case for deportation, you should soon ship your women over .

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

another is that they are terrible drivers.

Man, if that was a case for deportation, you should soon ship your women over .

It isn't really funny. Any time you see some lunatic going 50 km/h on the open highway or moronically cutting people off, chance is it's an Asian immigrant. Apparently it is the norm to drive like a nutter where they come from.

[Dinner]

It depends on the country. In Korea and Japan people drove like an old lady going to church; slow, slow, slow.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Any time you see some lunatic going 50 km/h on the open highway

That doesn't seem very fast to me, Agathon. Unless you have a different defintion of 'highway'?

Oh, and around here (New Jersey), the people moronically cutting others off are usually New Yorkers .

[Starchild]

I had a lovely post that the server ate...I'll try to remember most of it:

Western culture has a set of core values that is deeply seductive and appealing to aspects of the human condition. The adoption of these core values is part of the cultural contract between the already present Western culture and the arriving/emerging cultures. So appealing are these core values that cultural beliefs that disagree with them are often discarded, if not by the first generation than by the second, because such integration represents a better long term cultural adaptation than isolation does.

Liberty. Freedom. Democracy. The ability to think independently and speak one's own mind. Tolerance and equality. Whether you believe these values to be God-given or not (I go with not), they do form a common link tying together cultures.

However, I will admit I do worry at times about poor integration. It's easier in countries built on immigration, such as the USA and Canada. The basic idea is that you're trading one set of values for another when you move there. In European countries, there isn't the tradition of being seen as a nation built built from immigration. Sometimes, we should stress more that we have a set of core values that must be agreed to as part of the social-cultural contract. That applies to all citizens, whether racist BNP fascists or homophobic, anti-semetic Muslim extremists.

I regard your average British Muslim, moderate and tolerant, as more British than a BNP member. The BNP member has rejected the core values of society while the British Muslim has embraced them.

[Whaleboy]

Agreed, although I do hesitate to say that a culture is more suited to aspects of the human condition than other, due to environmental issues. For example, nomadic Arabs have a certain culture that is best adapted for that location, people and way of life. Ours is best adapted here. The question is, how can one make a culture more appealing to the human condition? It is a sliding scale within a culture, but does not necessarily invoke an entirely different society in itself, in other words, a person at age 4 60 years later at 64, is the same person (for all intents and purposes).

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Any time you see some lunatic going 50 km/h on the open highway

That doesn't seem very fast to me, Agathon. Unless you have a different defintion of 'highway'?

They are slow drivers (limit is 100) which is often more dangerous than speeding: especially on New Zealand's small winding roads (if I showed you a picture of NZ State Highway 1, you'd wet yourself laughing)

Oh, and around here (New Jersey), the people moronically cutting others off are usually New Yorkers .

Yeah - death to NY and its snobby inhabitants!

I found a pic of SH1 - this is what it looks like for the most part (there is a dual carriageway just out of Auckland, but almost all of it looks like this). Can any other people boast such a grand major road?

[Whaleboy]

You can have no idea how much I want to take a suped up mini cooper down that road right now!!!

[Agathon]

Originally posted by elijah
You can have no idea how much I want to take a suped up mini cooper down that road right now!!!

That would fit right in. My last car before I came to Canada in 99 was a 1980 Toyota Corona (like the pic below - except mine was brown with a beige vinyl roof - :P)

Best car I ever drove (previously I had a 1971 Hillman Hunter).

[Whaleboy]

You're all with the pictures today Agathon!! No offense, but it looks like a 1988 Ford Escort!!

What would also be good would be a 1973 Porsche 911 Carrarra RS 2.7L.

[Whaleboy]

Was it 73 or 77? I forget, I wasnt born!