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Iran - will we soon face another aggressive act?

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  • #31
    Coming from you Fez, i am flattered. I must be saying the right things if you think they are wrong.

    Lets take your arguemn: Iran is the most conservative. lets then take another regime, lets say..I don't know,, saudi arabia. Lets compare:

    Last major parlimentary elections?
    Iran: 1999 I believe.
    SA: never

    Can women drive cars?
    Iran: yes
    SA: no

    Do reformist papers exist?
    Iran: yes
    SA: no

    Cna Women get degrees?
    Iran: yes
    SA: no.

    Opposed the Taliban regime in Afghanistan?
    Iran: yes
    SA: no.

    Iran is not a westerns syle democracy. It is a theocratic republic, and certainly the hard-liners are fighting back. BUt the fact that hardliners face a fight, that an opposition, which made electoral gains seems to me to be more than self-evident proof that Iran is not only not the most conservative regime in the region but that it is more progressive internally politically than several US allies in the Mideast.
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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    • #32
      I wonder if the US is trying to pull of the same feat they pulled with Syria and bluff Iran into turning these people over: http://www-cgi.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/me.../alqaeda.iran/
      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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      • #33
        Yes DanS, a positive comparison to saudi arabi does matter. After all, we are allies of one, and continue to call the other "evil". If you want to know why people look at American like hypocrites in the world, there is your answer.

        Politically, Iran is ahead not only of SA, but a place like Egypt, which is as, if not more, politically repressive than Iran.
        If you don't like reality, change it! me
        "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
        "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
        "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

        Comment

        • #34
          Eli, Edan: before I start a meaningless arguing about if Turkey belongs to the ME or Jordania is a relevant regional player, I made a small change in my entire post.

          Fez: it´s amazing that a facist like you are complains about the human right situation in a developing country, which is in an appearent progress to more civilisation and democracy.
          if you haven´t noticed yet, Khomeini is dead since 1989 and since then the country has significantally changed. what do you expect, anyway? Iran was at war with Iraq for 8 long years. and btw. it´s common knowledge that Iraq and not Iran was the agressor.
          after the islamic revolution in 1979, Iran may have turned to an evil regime. but if you compare the situation with countries in Europe after a revolution then you will find out, that there usually is an era of anarchy, corruption and barbarism. see what happened to France under Robbespierre or Britain under Cromwell. democracy didn´t develop itself from one day to another. Iran is obviously on a good way and meanwhile it made its way out of the international isolation and became an important stabilizing factor in the region.

          what do you know about Iran anyway, Fez? can you name me any civil war in Iran? do you know about any threat, that goes out of Iran? is Iran agressive or irrational in anyway?
          methinks you only hate muslims in general for being not compatible to your ideology and that´s why you you also hate Iran. it wouldn´t even matter which muslimic country the US is currently focusing, you just go with it.

          Shi:
          We are rasing emnity, while they are supporting Al Qaeda!?
          well, Washington spread the rumor, that Iraq would have huge amounts of WMDs and support Al Quaeda. they justified the war with it and now it seems to turn out that Washington was wrong.
          just claiming a terrorist connection is still enough for you to belive the dumbest BS that comes out of the pentagon?
          Ignorance Is Strengh, eh?

          I don't see how you call Iran a civlized and progressive country. That country is still a well known supporter of terrorism(Hezbollah, etc.) and is still a theocracy.
          according to CIA, Iran is a theocratic republic. I have no idea why anyone should have a problem with it. they even have a women suffrage.
          CIA.gov 404
          http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html


          actually, Shi, I still don´t know, if your postings are only ironic attacks or if you really believe in everything you write.
          Last edited by oedo; May 25, 2003, 12:14.
          justice is might

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DanS
            and that would be its democracy

            Roland: In the article that I cited a couple of weeks ago, they said Armitage said it was a democracy. That quote doesn't say Iran is a democracy by a long stretch.
            And what does: "I would note there's one dramatic difference between Iran and the other two axes of evil, and that would be its democracy. [And] you approach a democracy differently"

            mean then, if translated from Washingtonian into plain english? Or the other way round....
            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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            • #36
              Another thing to note is that Iran's nuclear program is supported by both the reformers and the hardliners. But the target is Israel, not the United States directly. We think we could make a deal with the reformers, if they took over all of the executive ministries of the country.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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              • #37
                Hershell: One says that it's a democracy. The other says that it has democratic elements. We approach the democratic elements within Iran (Khatami) differently than we do the mullahs.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                • #38
                  Why woundn't Iranians want nukes? They are the last state to have WMD;s used against them. they have 1 immidiate nuclear neighbor, and 3 others in the general vacitnity (Russia, Israel, India) wth nukes as well. If I were an Iranian, I would want nukes.
                  If you don't like reality, change it! me
                  "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                  "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                  "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                  Comment

                  • #39
                    Originally posted by GP

                    Yeah, well you also think that Versailles created Hitler. That might even be irrelevant. It didn't stop us from killing your countrymen after Nuremburg.
                    You still don't understand the difference between cause and guilt, fine. But please stop trolling me with your intellectual nanism.
                    “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      Originally posted by DinoDoc
                      I doubt even then. We've already adopted two countries already. I don't see how Bush can sell to the country adopting another.
                      The Bush team is the best in recent years at engineering crises and having most of the country dutifully go along. He's probably kicking himself over that damned FDR amendment.

                      **********

                      Oedo - you are wrong about Iraq being the aggressor in the Iran-Iraq war in all but the most technical sense.

                      After Khomeini came in, Iran abrogated bilateral agreements on the al Faw peninsula and use of the Shatt al Arab waterway, sent agents into Iraq to foment rebellion among the Iraqi Shiites, and sent other agents into Iraq to assassinate Iraqi officials and Iraqi Shiite leaders who weren't sympathetic to Iranian "leadership." This sort of thing went on for nearly a year, and the Hussein government initially tried diplomatic solutions, but the Khomeini folks weren't real interested. Hussein didn't do this because he was a nice guy, of course, he did it because he knew the Iranians would have his lunch in any military conflict, unless he had massive help. (which the US and the Arab world gave)
                      When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DanS
                        Hershell: One says that it's a democracy. The other says that it has democratic elements. We approach the democratic elements within Iran differently than we do the mullahs.
                        Now that's some heavy sophistry.

                        But ok, he said "its democracy", not its "democratic elements". If he meant the latter, why didn't he say it (assuming the quote is correct)? And why does he say "you approach a democracy differently", not "you approach a country with cemocratic elements" differently?

                        Your interpretation is within the realm of the wording, but far from the single convincing one, not even very convincing IMO.
                        “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                        • #42
                          Well, it does have a democracy. But that democracy is relegated to the least powerful ministries. In Lenin's terms, the "commanding heights" of the country are controlled by the mullahs. If you control the commanding heights (heavy industry by Lenin), who cares if you have a free market in agricultural goods?
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                          • #43
                            Who's talking about free markets?

                            Anyway, the quote you initially criticized was an at least reasonable reflection of his comment, or?
                            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

                              The Bush team is the best in recent years at engineering crises and having most of the country dutifully go along.
                              Funny, ain't it?
                              Afghanistan is still a mess, and the Bushies have already made more mistakes in Iraq than even I expected from them. So their usual strategy would point towards Iran or Syria - "If you're in a hole, dig a bigger one"

                              "He's probably kicking himself over that damned FDR amendment."

                              I wouldn't be surprised - his friends of the SC will find some creative way around it...
                              “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                              Comment

                              • #45
                                No. It misquoted him.

                                The free markets is an analogy. Lenin's control economy relied on control of the most important portions of economic activity--at his time these were heavy industry. But it left the other, less important parts (in his mind) free.

                                The mullahs are controlling the commanding heights of the country as they see it. Internal/external security, intelligence, the judiciary, etc.
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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