France Tied Up in Knots Over Islamic Headscarf

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
What is supposed to be special about our western civilizationis that we allow for freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, that we don't impose conformity on those who are different. It is essential that they be allowed to practice religion so long as it is non-interfering

The point of the traditional hardocre laicism of the French school (which begun in 1880, so the issue is also historical and emotional) is to make school a place of pure knowledge devoid of politics and religion. Nobody is forbidden to practice his religion or his political beliefs out of the school, but the inner is meant to be protected from that.
Actually, the State wanted to have its own propaganda / assimilation machine without having any competition inside it. But the idea of "no proselytism at school" has remained extremely strong.

Headscarves are a religious symbol, and are a visible one. The muslim girls who don't wear it can feel guilty at the sight of other muslim girls who wear it, and can be led to wear it themselves in the future. I call this religious pressure. For historical reason, it should be kept out of school. For practical reasons, we cannot be that extreme.

[DanS]

and if private schools are forced to enforce them at the same time as public schools

Why on earth would the rules be enforced in private schools?

[cinch]

I agree with Shi. Turbans, yamulkahs, crucifixes, headscarves... All should be allowed by students. The key point should be that the religions represented by those symbols cannot be pushed on the student population by teachers or groups. What individual students want to wear is their own business.

[Sandman]

From my point of view, the very idea of going to schools where there are prayers is utterly shocking

For all the weekly prayers, hymns and occasional bible stories and visits by ministers, it has had no effect on me. Most of the religion stops when you enter high school, apart from the ministers.

Britain and France have similar low levels of church attendance, so does it really make much difference?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
and if private schools are forced to enforce them at the same time as public schools

Why on earth would the rules be enforced in private schools?

Because it would otherwise create a huge appeal to religious / private schools, which will effectively push muslim parents to send their kids there. It will hurt the French integration machine, and will hurt the French society in the end by making it less homogenous.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by cinch
The key point should be that the religions represented by those symbols cannot be pushed on the student population by teachers or groups.

When you have several headscarved girls gathering at recess, and this group has the reputation of being virtuous, while un-headscarved girls have the reputation of being sluts, it is pressure.
And that's why the problem isn't as simple as it sounds.

[Adalbertus]

What individual students want to wear is their own business.

I got the impression that this is the lesser part of the problem. The bigger is if teachers wear religious symbols because (it is thought that) teachers have a greater impact on student's opinions than fellow students. Be it or not, as soon as the teachers aren't forced to do the same or do the same for some other reason this diversity can make students think about what they believe, which is a good thing.

[Dinner]

If student's get to wear religious symbols then teachers must as well. Either it is a religion free zone or everyone gets to wear what they please.

[cinch]

Spiff:

When you have several headscarved girls gathering at recess, and this group has the reputation of being virtuous, while un-headscarved girls have the reputation of being sluts, it is pressure.

But won't these categorisations appear anyways, regardless of headscarves? It is one thing to be against the pressuring of religion on students, and entirely another to attempt to rid all high schools of social cliques and peer pressure.

[Bereta_Eder]

very interesting matter indeed.


I also got a flash with the film with departieu (you know the one hollywood copied as usual and made it watered down) with the school and all the muslim kids and that principle who got the nervous breakdown with all those matters


fun movie, most of it, some was serious.


notable quote: mais qui est ce gaulois, pour qui'l se prend, pour clind estwood?

[Ben Kenobi]

Interesting.

My church apparently had this internal debate as well, since many conservative Mennonite churches require women who attend to wear headscarves.

Their decision to not require headscarves follows the logic that it is more important to be chaste on the inside than the outside. Clearly, from Spiffor's problem, the kids are not getting this point.

From my point of view, I agree with Shi, that this is a fundamental part of religious freedom. So long as the headscarves do not interfere with education, they should be allowed, as would a yarmulke or a crucifix.

This is why PE might be a sticky point, would it be possible to ask the girls to remove their headscarves for sports?

As for the teachers, if the students are allowed, so should the teachers be allowed so long as it does not interfere with the student's education. I don't buy this argument that religious freedom is harmful to France.

[Imran Siddiqui]

If student's get to wear religious symbols then teachers must as well. Either it is a religion free zone or everyone gets to wear what they please.

Well you can easily make an argument why the kids should be able to wear things but the teachers shouldn't. Teachers being employees of the school, and following a dress code. Students aren't employees (if they are, I want my back pay ).

Personally I think they should allow people to wear religious attire, students as well as teachers.

[Shi Huangdi]

Spiffor:

But wearing a headscarf does not amount to proselytization! Seeing that someone is of a certain faith does not amount to proselytization, or that class will be disrupted. If people are tolerant, they should be fine and not get bothered by the headscarf. If not, well then that is something they will need correction on by the schools, but still the solution is not to punish the victim. If they are going to be around women in headscarves throughout their live, why not in school?

Furthermore, Islam is religion that calls for you to be Moslem all the time. You don't stop being the slave of Allah when you enter school. Furthermore, school is something they will be taxed for anyway, so they have a right to it. By forcing them to remove their headscarf, you are unnessecarily requiring them to go against their religion.

"The muslim girls who don't wear it can feel guilty at the sight of other muslim girls who wear it,"

Don't you think they will be seeing moslem girls with scarves in their lives? You won't solve any problems by banning them in school. Moreover, if they believe not weare the scarf is ok, they should be confident and firm in such beliefs. Moreover, the threat passive peer pressure is no excuse to violate someone's freedom of religion.

If France wishes to place itself outside the bounds of the Western norms of tolerance, i certainly hope the European Court of Human Right can bring it into line...

[Bereta_Eder]

well the argument is not if religious freedom is harmful to France but wether the xercise of it through headscarfs interferes with the egality part of the threefold constitutional ideal.


It would be intersting to hear what goes on in other countries so brits, fins, spanish, belgians and all others i'd like to hear it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You'll have to drag them here, paiktis. I suppose they don't care about headscarfs in France that much .