France Tied Up in Knots Over Islamic Headscarf

[our_man]

I've been to two muslim countries (Egypt and Turkey) and nobody forced my sister and mother to wear veils in them! AFAIK Oerdin there are very few muslim countries where western women are forced to wear a veil while visiting - Saudi Arabia might be the only one.

The only reason why western women do wear veils (and sometimes wedding rings, even if they're not married) in these countries is stop themselves from being hassled by Arab men for sex, who basically look upon western women as being promiscuous.

[Dinner]

You went to very moderate Muslim countries. Until recently Turkey made it illegal for women to where the headscarf and Eygpt has always been pro-western.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, sudan, the northern part of nigeria, and perhaphes (though I'm not sure) Oman, and Yeman all require women to where the scarf. In Iran repeat offenders are publicly whipped if they refuse to where the scarf

[Spiffor]

One of my first political memories was the similar crisis back in 1988. My mother is a teacher and in the family, it has always been an issue much discussed upon, so my "banana" is deeply seated

David stars, Christian crosses etc. are allowed at school because, according to my mom, they are not 'obvious' signs of religion in the meaning that you cannot see them if you don't pay attention. By the same token, Muslim pendants are allowed at school.
However, headscarves are obvious to all, and make some girls avoid some courses, like Davout said. This should not happen in the strictly egalitarian French education system.
But, most of these girls DO want to wear the headscarf, and are rarely forced by their families to do so. For them, it is an indispensable piece of clothing ; they'd feel naked without it. Please also notice the people we are talking about are nearly all born in France and full-fledged French citizens. Some even descent of immigrant grandparents. So, it's not like they had a choice in their nationality.

I would personally favor the half-assed 'solution' :
- Deem the headscarf as a piece of clothing rather than religious belonging (no matter how hypocritical it is).
- Force headscarf-wearing girls not to wear it in courses that make headscarves dangerous (Gym, Chemics). The sanction of not complying would be to give a 0/20 in these courses because of inattendance.
- Force headscarf-wearing people not to wear it for ID pictures, the same way people are forced to remove their hats on ID pictures. The sanction for not complying would be to have the police make you a new ID with a proper pic and destroying the former.

Another solution could be thought out, but it would be much less half-assed : reintroduce uniforms at school. I was a strong opponent of this idea when I was a pupil myself, because I considered it killed freedom, but I have come to tolerate the idea much more over time. Notably because cloth-based 'freedom' is extremely shallow at school, and is mostly about showing in which gang you belong.

[Az]

I would personally favor the half-assed 'solution'

when you favor it, It's called compromise.

[Dinner]

School uniforms would solve this problem completely and would eliminate rich students showing off their expensive designer clothes and interjecting class conflict into the education enviroment.

[Az]

Oerdin

[Spiffor]

I'd favor school uniforms only if they look cool, and if private schools are forced to enforce them at the same time as public schools (about 17% of pupils/students go to private schools in France)

Edit : do you think these match the definition ?

[Wernazuma III]

I'm split, like GePap. On the one hand side I'd like to see muslims abolish headscarves, as it collides fundamentally with my views on gender equality. Yet it's stupid to "beat out" religious believes, it simply doesn't work - watch Turkey.
Furthermore I don't understand how the headscarf conflict with the secular state - you aren't obligued to wear it. Crosses put in classrooms by the schools is an example of such a collision, but why should the state interfer with how people dress? Maybe School uniforms would really be an answer, then it can make sense to ban the scarf even though I'd still advise the French not to do so.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, sudan, the northern part of nigeria, and perhaphes (though I'm not sure) Oman, and Yeman all require women to where the scarf. In Iran repeat offenders are publicly whipped if they refuse to where the scarf

Remote parts of Pakistan perhaps, but no where NEAR a city.

[Sandman]

School uniforms, with a school headscarfs for Islamic girls, would probably be a reasonable compromise. I agree that they should remove their headscarfs for identification photos and certain subjects.

Having said that, I don't know what it's like going to a school where religion is strictly banned. In British schools, religion is commonplace, particularly in primary schools, complete with hymns and prayers.

[Cruddy]

What's the problem? The Sikhs have the turban, why no headscarves?

Why not ban orthodox Jews, or Christian priests with their robes?

This is hypocrisy. No other word covers it.

[GePap]

Ahh, what Christian priest IN SCHOOL?

Oh, the Sikhs also have thier ceremonial daggers.

[gsmoove23]

I don't see how anyone could support forcing girls to take off their headscarves since it is primarily to do with modesty. It would be like forcing girls to wear mini-skirts as school uniform... mmmm...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Cruddy
What's the problem? The Sikhs have the turban, why no headscarves?

I wonder if we have any Sikh in our schools... Anyway, the Sikh minority is that unsignificant in France that I take every Turban-wearing Sikh must have a case-to-case resolution. And yes, religious robes are banned in French schools, except maybe private / religious schools.


Sandman :
From my point of view, the very idea of going to schools where there are prayers is utterly shocking

[Shi Huangdi]

"really don't see anything wrong with this law. The French are saying people are welcome to come to France but they must agree to act French and to assimilate into their culture. If you do not want to do this then you don't have to move to France."

What is supposed to be special about our western civilizationis that we allow for freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, that we don't impose conformity on those who are different. It is essential that they be allowed to practice religion so long as it is non-interfering, you cannot claim that the headscarve is I think. Moslem girls in my HS were allowed to wear their headscarve, the school was tolerant and it never caused any trouble.(well there were some jerks after 9/11, but that subsided...)