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  • #76
    Originally posted by skywalker

    In fact, we wouldn't have joined in the war on Germany if it hadn't declared war on us.
    I doubt very much that the US would have permitted the Soviet Union to take over Europe. That's one big reason why the US joined the European war and why FDR was itching to do so.

    Look, much of what I've been claiming in this thread is based on the premise that foreign policy is generally formulated for purely selfish reasons and thus it is often despicable.

    What's controversial about that?
    Only feebs vote.

    Comment

    • #77
      Originally posted by Agathon


      I doubt very much that the US would have permitted the Soviet Union to take over Europe.
      Interesting...How were they going to do that when in 1942 their production capacity was almost at zero and they were relying on the US for over 80% of their arms and food. (which btw was not nearly enough to feed the population adequately)?

      Without a US/UK front to worry about in North Africa and then Italy, I believe that Germany over runs USSR by early 1943.

      The question is: Would the US have allowed Germany to take over USSR? (Which, resource wise, was a much bigger prize)
      "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

      Comment

      • #78
        Originally posted by Agathon


        I doubt very much that the US would have permitted the Soviet Union to take over Europe.
        What was it going to do? Declare war first? Monroe forbade this.

        Originally posted by Agathon

        That's one big reason why the US joined the European war and why FDR was itching to do so.
        FDR was itching to join the war because he didn't have much time for fascists OR communists. The reason the US joined the war in Europe was because Germany declared war on them. Go read history instead of making up your own.
        The fact that the US oil embargo forced the Japanese hand to bomb Pearl Harbour just goes to show that FDR was no fool. A declaration of war was no possible - so he scaled a demand that the Japanese could not tolerate (no oil, no war in China).
        If Hitler hadn't declared war on the US, things would have been very different. Being the complete loon that he was, he did.

        Originally posted by Agathon

        Look, much of what I've been claiming in this thread is based on the premise that foreign policy is generally formulated for purely selfish reasons and thus it is often despicable.

        What's controversial about that?
        Shh... don't tell the Yanks their Govt is actually a front for the rich corporate elite - they might actually listen and start to think, instead of letting Rupert Murdoch (aka FOX news) do their thinking for them.
        Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
        "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

        Comment

        • #79
          Originally posted by PLATO1003


          Interesting...How were they going to do that when in 1942 their production capacity was almost at zero and they were relying on the US for over 80% of their arms and food. (which btw was not nearly enough to feed the population adequately)?

          Without a US/UK front to worry about in North Africa and then Italy, I believe that Germany over runs USSR by early 1943.

          The question is: Would the US have allowed Germany to take over USSR? (Which, resource wise, was a much bigger prize)
          Well the Germans were on the back foot from Stalingrad onwards. My guess is that they didn't want to see either Germany or the USSR win. A win for either side would have been geostrategically disastrous for the US.
          Only feebs vote.

          Comment

          • #80
            Originally posted by Agathon


            Well the Germans were on the back foot from Stalingrad onwards. My guess is that they didn't want to see either Germany or the USSR win. A win for either side would have been geostrategically disastrous for the US.
            I would hardly call the German counteroffensive of 1942 being on the back foot (prelude to Kursk).

            Not content with rewriting history you are also inventing words never seen before in the English language. If you mean strategically please say so.
            Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
            "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

            Comment

            • #81
              Originally posted by Cruddy

              FDR was itching to join the war because he didn't have much time for fascists OR communists. The reason the US joined the war in Europe was because Germany declared war on them. Go read history instead of making up your own.
              OK - so the US government was so stupid that it couldn't see the consequences of a fascist or communist victory?

              Only feebs vote.

              Comment

              • #82
                Originally posted by Cruddy


                I would hardly call the German counteroffensive of 1942 being on the back foot (prelude to Kursk).

                Not content with rewriting history you are also inventing words never seen before in the English language. If you mean strategically please say so.
                "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                Comment

                • #83
                  Originally posted by Agathon


                  OK - so the US government was so stupid that it couldn't see the consequences of a fascist or communist victory?

                  Agathon, I think you misread his quote.
                  "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                  Comment

                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Agathon


                    OK - so the US government was so stupid that it couldn't see the consequences of a fascist or communist victory?

                    Neither would have been welcomed by the US. However, a certain other empire was involved in the war at that time and showed no inclination of surrending to either - indeed it allied with the USSR within days of the commencement of Barbarossa.

                    The commencement of Barbarossa meant that this empire's homeland was no longer threatened with invasion.

                    Guess who I'm talking about. Then go think why the US was worried, but not catatonic, about a fascist or communist victory.
                    Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                    "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                    Comment

                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Cruddy


                      As for Bush asking European states to be as generous as the US - he's whistling in the wind (nothing new there).


                      Some people forgot that Europe paid more than the US for Gulf War 1... (i'm almost sure of this, please correct me if I'm wrong though).
                      "An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind" - Gandhi

                      Comment

                      • #86
                        I'm sure you're wrong. We supplied the vast majority of the military equipment and personell. The only people who paid for stuff that wasn't theirs were the Saudis (and maybe the Kuwaitis... but I don't know there).

                        Comment

                        • #87
                          Oh, Agathon, even if it would have been disadvantageous, Monroe was still there. The most FDR could do was try and get the other side to declare war. So he wanted a war, yes. But he was strictly bound by certain limitations - not legal ones, not enforced, but a foreign policy that had been consistantly followed for a century and a half.

                          Comment

                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Menlas




                            Some people forgot that Europe paid more than the US for Gulf War 1... (i'm almost sure of this, please correct me if I'm wrong though).
                            Kind of irrelevent - the Kuwaiti Royal family reimubursed for most of it.

                            Actually, I didn't mean Europe wasn't generous, I meant Bush whistles in the wind a lot. (Asks for stuff that isn't going to happen, if anyone doesn't get it).
                            Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                            "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                            Comment

                            • #89
                              Put it another way - if FDR had wanted a war he would have had to get Congress and the Senate on his side. Almost impossible at the time.

                              He knew it was inevitable, so he did what he could to prepare for it.
                              Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                              "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                              Comment

                              • #90
                                Tosh. The US declared war in '17. Did they get more isolationist after '19? I doubt it.

                                The US would have entered the war in Europe eventually, the subs were out there again. Hitler being nuts helped a great deal though.
                                (\__/)
                                (='.'=)
                                (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

                                Comment

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