thank you france, germany, russia, china, etc

[Chris 62]

Nothing like Fantasy land Poly-commies!

Ah, uncle Joe would be proud!

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by Agathon




As if that's going to happen. It will be jobs for the boys as usual.

Considering how much experience Halliburton has working for Axis of Evil countries like Iran, Iraq, and Libya, I think it's a pretty good fit.

[Dinner]

More, more! I must hear more! Agathon you need to proclaim your hatred louder so everyone can hear.

[DinoDoc]

*ahem*

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Oerdin
More, more! I must hear more! Agathon you need to proclaim your hatred louder so everyone can hear.

Only if you come up with some decent arguments instead of posting the same old tired crap. If you can't understand that international relations are for the most part governed by realpolitik, then you really aren't qualified to enter this discussion.

Anyway, how about showing us these vaunted weapons of mass destruction? I haven't seen one yet, and there were supposed to be thousands, right?

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by Agathon
I said that it didn't matter what Chirac's motives were. My point was that the Ameri-scum weren't much different (in fact their motives were probably worse) and that Chirac was on the right side, albeit for different reasons.

So, Propping up Saddam = right side. suuuuuure.
Time to turn in your commie card.

You can flap on all you like, but this war was waged on fake pretexts partly to make sure that people of limited political awareness, like yourself, would vote for little George in the upcoming election. And you all bought it.

Oh, how I love it when the Truly Enlighted finally share their wisdom with us poor "limited" folk

Sorry, bub, wrong set of assumptions of your part. #1 I did not vote for Bush in 2000. #2 I did not support his crappy little war. #3 I won't be voting for Bush in 2004.

And don't give me that crap about the US helping the Iraqui people. Everyone with half a brain knows that foreign policy has very little to do with caring;

At least my half-a-brain works. Look, this is news to noone. The Bushies find themselves in the uncomfortable position of having the world microscope still focused on their silly war. Now anytime someone takes dump in Baghdad, the news media reports on the quantity and color. They'll simply HAVE TO behave better than Saddam.

[Dinner]

Agathon.

I apparently understand far, far more about realpolitic, international relations, and human nature then you do. You still can't understand why your vaunted communist theory violates human nature and your views of international relations are based up blind rage and bigotry.

Come on and lighten up a bit.

[Whaleboy]

Have to agree with Agathon, the quality (lack of) and evident outlandishness of some of the arguments posted here justifying Americas actions, both in the context of war and what has happened at UNSC, seem to suggest a point of view that is struggling to maintain its credibility against a combination of logic, reason, common sense, and objective analysis.

For example:

"America is an evil, evil place Agathon. Never forget it is far better to live in crappy Arab dictatorship"

If the best one can do is provide wholly subjective, provincialist arguments, then you are doing little better than the crusaders of Western Europe of centuries past. The Arabs may well have something to say in response to your claim. You are judging another culture, another form of government, another peoples way of doing things, by your own paramaters, which while they may work for you, need not work for everyone.

If you do as I do, and take a step back, view things, not from your own personal love of (in my case liberty) the American way of doing things, then you may well arrive at the same conclusion as I and others have, who are often people who have not been conditioned by cultural pragmatism and patriotism, so that they can now see things in an objective manner.

I know I keep going on about subjectives and objectives, but that is of critical importance here, and all issues of international relations. To those that would say that there is no ultimate objective thus there is only subjective, one must also consider that given a context of a certain number of subjectives, there is a pseudo-objective for that context. Otherwise, we will be engaged in a long debate about the nature of cosmology, which is of little relevance to Gulf War II.

[Spiffor]

Oerdin :

Like many Americans, you have a deep misconception over Chiracs tactics during the diplomatic crisis. Chirac didn't stir the French anti-Americanism, but rather the pacifism. Sure, the opposition to the Iraqi war would have been much less wide if there wasn't a small-scale antiamericanism already present in the French society. But Chirac's popularity was coming from the fact that he seemed on the highest moral groud (defending the peace threatened by greedy Bush was quite a moral high ground in the eye of the public opinion).

Of course Chirac was after political gain, and most of his barking came from the attempt to create the first new pole of the multipolar world. But he didn't use antiamericanism to achieve it, even though antiamericanism was an asset in having the population more eager to follow him.
As a matter of fact, the Anti-Frenchism in the US has raised much, much more than antiamericanism in France. The raise of Antiamericanism here was about unsignificant.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Chirac was doing anything in the issue for moral reasons. The idea of Chirac taking risks to "save the peace" is about as stupid and naive as the idea of Bush taking risks to "save the Iraqi people". Both leaders acted out of political interests.

[Whaleboy]

"I apparently understand far, far more about realpolitic, international relations, and human nature then you do. You still can't understand why your vaunted communist theory violates human nature and your views of international relations are based up blind rage and bigotry."

You evidence for this "communist theory" is? As for it violating human nature, that is another story, but I feel you may be referring to Stalinism there. Blind rage and bigotry? Where is your evidence. It would appear that your reasoning is based on prejudices and misconceptions, as well as plenty of strawmen, ad hominems, and the odd ad hoc. Begone cretin.

"Come on and lighten up a bit"

If I may be so presumptuous to speak for Agathon, it is hard to "lighten up", when we are dealing with issues of wars, the victims of war, and the future being dictated by these policies.

[Arrian]

Well, it didn't take long for this to turn into the usual ****fest.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

The thread mentioned France. It was inevitable.

[Chris 62]

Too bad truth and reality aern't playing into it.

But you guys never bother with that!

Viva Castro!

[Sandman]

As if that's going to happen. It will be jobs for the boys as usual.

Yeah, probably. I've yet to hear a convincing argument for awarding the contracts to American firms only, the only one I've heard are that French, German and Russian companies are somehow an 'evil' presence that Iraq should be protected from.

[Ming]

I see a chill order is needed,

Some of you people can't seem to argue with out making personal insults. I think I'm just going to ban you the next time I see it... and when you aren't able to post, just PM me and we will "CHAT ABOUT IT"...