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**Drogue** · May 19, 2003, 15:31

We have democracy because we elect the people that choose on our behalf. It is not disregading completely, but some issues are to complex for the people to vote on IMHO. Thus the people should elect someone who they agree with, to act on their behalf. Seems logical to me.

***End Is Forever*** · May 19, 2003, 15:49

Yes, but we elect people to act within our own democratic boundaries. These proposals fundamentally change those. Would you tolerate MPs voting to set up a one-party state and dictatorship "because they're choosing on our behalf"? Of course not.

**Drogue** · May 19, 2003, 15:54

You have a point. I don't think these change them that much though. Does anyone have a link that goes into detail about what this constitution is?

**Dauphin** · May 19, 2003, 15:56

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Edit: After reading the rest of the thread, I'm glad to see Big Crunch defending the absurd notion that people are too stupid to decide important issues such as this.

Why glad?

**Dauphin** · May 19, 2003, 16:11

Originally posted by Drogue
You have a point. I don't think these change them that much though. Does anyone have a link that goes into detail about what this constitution is?

Do like the average voter would on this issue. Vote first, then find out its implications later.

**TheStinger** · May 20, 2003, 03:44

I can't believe people saying that we shouldn't have a referendum as people are too stupid to decide such complex issues. Why bother having elections after all.

**Spiffor** · May 20, 2003, 07:13

The European Convention website publishes the draft of the future European constitution. It has it in all languages of the Union IIRC.

**Spiffor** · May 20, 2003, 07:18

Actually, this constitution doesn't change many things (from what I've read ca two months ago) and the scaremongering of the tories is just that - scaremongering.

The main role of the constitution is to get rid of the mess that are the founding texts of the EU, and to have one constitution that doesn't need a protocolar nightmare to have it amended.

When I've read the drafted articles two months ago, I found this constitution extremely inambitious. I don't think it will bring any significant change except for one thing : It will allow significant change to take place in the future.

By the way, I'm all for a referendum on it, after a real information campaign, so that people know what it is about (so that scaremongers aren't the only ones present on the issue). And I want this referendum to be Europewide, not nationwide. I think it is absurd to have nationwide referenda on an issue that is a common one, common to all Europeans.

**MikeH** · May 20, 2003, 07:23

Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Hey, why not disregard democracy completely?

Hold on... that's what these proposals are doing anyway!

The Conservatives had one issue to campaign on last election, Keep the Pound. They got absolutely slaughtered.

I'd be all in favour of a referendum but clearly it could never be fair with the amount of tabloid lies about Europe the public would be subjected to, to say nothing of the rampant racism.

**Worthingtons** · May 20, 2003, 07:24

I see Mike is bodd bashing again, shame he doesnt like people with different views to his own.

Anyway, If there is a referendum about 95% of the country will vote NO to Europe, and even that is probably an understatement. We do not want Europe, and we dont want the Euro either. While there may not be significant changes, it's a slippery slope and the people need to be given the chance to stop of from sliding down it NOW.

The only such merger I would agree to is if we Joined the USA.

**Worthingtons** · May 20, 2003, 07:26

And can you just try and leave Racism out of this thread now Mike, since the issue is Europe, and not the Racism of various tabloids.

**TheStinger** · May 20, 2003, 07:30

Well I don't think statement like 95% of the UK don't want europe help the cause of people who are in favour of close ties with europe but on a very differnt basis to the set up we have now.

**MikeH** · May 20, 2003, 07:31

You clearly don't know me very well. I actually like Boddies, I just don't agree with him about most things. I'm quite happy for people to have different opinions to me, doesn't affect me being friends with them.

I don't think you can have a referendum without the media influencing voters therefore it's a relevant point.

**TheStinger** · May 20, 2003, 07:34

I would prefer to debate europe ont he issues rather than just insulting the French ( I can do that anyway)

**MikeH** · May 20, 2003, 07:40

I also don't agree that it's 95% of Brits that don't want to be closer to Europe. In fact the numbers opposed to the Euro are 58%.

Food Technology - Mori formerly Cambridge Crops, Boston

http://www.mori.com/polls/2003/sw030508.shtml

Mori formerly Cambridge Crops manufactures all-natural protective layer to slow down the spoiling process of food and keep fresher food for longer.

Which is still clearly a majority against but nowhere near 95%. I'm pretty sure a lot of those against would change if Europe was more democratic.

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Blair Determined not to give British People a say on new EU Constitution

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