Who Shot Mohammed al-Dura? (long)

[gsmoove23]

Davout,

[Ned]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


This is a bit too much. I accept to be held responsible for what I say, but I feel free to stay silence when I have nothing relevant to say, and my silence cannot speak anything else. May I add also that I do not read all threads (I suppose I am not committed to do so), or not immediately, and this particular thread did not call my interest at first, simply because I did not remind the name of the children. After reading it, all my knowledge of the case results from this reading, so I have nothing of interest to comment.

Now, after interpreting the silence of your French comrades, you write that the French citizens remains rooted in anti-Semitism, which I can only understand as a personal insulting accusation.

I am not really harmed by such unsupported accusation, too well acquainted with the overall quality of your thinking, but I would regret that your consistent tendency to interpret any possible fact as explaining and justifying your so clear prejudices, depreciate the level of most of the debates held on this forum.

Davout, not all French are anti-Semitic, it is true. But when one sees a consistent pattern from the French left of openly siding with Palestine against Israel, to see that France2 participate in a propaganda event designed to provoke a war against Israel an to not see even one condemnation from a French poster, and to listen to the vile, racist comments coming from the pro-Palestinian left here in the the United States, what conclusions should one draw?

1 + 1 = 2

Give me one other explanation for not one single French leftist condemning the Palestinians for staging the little boy's death. Give me one other explanation for no one on the left condemning France2 for participating in an event designed to start a war against the Jews. The left is, after all, supposed to be anti-war. Or is there an exception if Israel is attacked?

How many leftists in Europe stood silent when the Nazi's defamed the Jews prior to WWII? Everyone? Why?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


No, it is not.

I must say he's right. While the US govt certainly pursues US interests first and foremost (how could they not?) there is a reservoir of good will for Israel in the US(and i am talking specifically about American gentiles), and a willingness to understand the Israeli situation, that does not seem to exist in Europe. The reasons have been explored in detail elsewhere (David Brooks of the Weekly Standard has some particurlarly cogent things to say) it existed before 9/11 and still exists today. As an example, some time ago on this forum, I asked if anyone had changed their views on the mideast situation based on Arafats rejection of the Barak peace offers. The only answers i got in the affirmative were from American gentiles. The whole thing seems to have flown right over the heads of the Europeans. The Americans are a remarkable people, and whatever issues Israelis may have with them, it is worth noting that, and I feel no embarassment as an American Jew in pointing that out.


Gott bench America!!!!!

[Az]

who's 'he' is it he, or is it me?

Of course there exists good will on both sides, but this wouldn't have happened if it didn't suit the interests of both sides. As I said before, it wasn't always like this.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel
who's 'he' is it he, or is it me?

Of course there exists good will on both sides, but this wouldn't have happened if it didn't suit the interests of both sides. As I said before, it wasn't always like this.

Azazel, I believe he thinks that I am right. Americans, but not the Armeican left who seem to have joined the Palestinian cause, have a significant amount of good will toward Israel. There could be many reasons for this, from the Holocaust to the fact that so many of our friends and neighbors are Jewish and not Arab. But Americans see Israel as a good nation, an nation that represents the highest of American ideals. A nation beset on all sides by hostile neighbors trying to destroy it. A nation that deserves our support because of its essential goodness which constrasts so sharply with the barbarity of its neighbors and the Palestinians.

As I have said here before, if the Palestinians elite were peaceful and democratic, and did not represent the very worst of human characteristics, my attitude towards Israel might be different. But, when the contrast between a civilized people and a Nazi-like opposition intent on destroying them is so great, I personally will support Israel 110%.

[Ned]

gsmoove, as a known leftist, are you or are you not against the goals of Hamas: to overthrow the Jewish state and drive any survivors into the sea?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


Azazel, I believe he thinks that I am right.

yes - sorry for not being clear.

I guess neither of you knows yiddish

[Arrian]

Hear that gsmoove? You're a known leftist!

By the way, as an "American gentile" I'd like to chime in:

1) I have sympathy for Israel, both because I can understand the desire of the Jewish people for a homeland/safe haven and because of the repeated attempts to destroy it. Their situation is a difficult one, and so I'm willing to cut them some slack.

2) I have sympathy for the palestinians, who did kinda get screwed in this (by the UN, which created Israel against their wishes, by the "leaders" of the Arab world who pay lipservice to their plight to play on the emotions of their people, and by Israeli occupation and collective punishment tactics). The militants who have chosen the path of suicide bombing targetting civilians have alienated me, however.

3) What's done is done. If we could use a time machine and go back to 1948, it might be worth looking at an alternative location for a Jewish State (not that I'd expect Zionists to be supportive of that). But that just isn't possible, any more than it's possible to go back and convince the Arabs not to attack. The only thing that can be done is to try and deal with the problems that exist now.

At this point I'm fed up with both sides.

-Arrian

[Az]

I guess neither of you knows yiddish

Yiddish is the language of the galut. Learn Hebrew!

[Dinner]

Yiddish is just Hebrew+German isn't it?

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Ned


Davout, not all French are anti-Semitic, it is true. But when one sees a consistent pattern from the French left of openly siding with Palestine against Israel, to see that France2 participate in a propaganda event designed to provoke a war against Israel an to not see even one condemnation from a French poster, and to listen to the vile, racist comments coming from the pro-Palestinian left here in the the United States, what conclusions should one draw?

1 + 1 = 2

Give me one other explanation for not one single French leftist condemning the Palestinians for staging the little boy's death. Give me one other explanation for no one on the left condemning France2 for participating in an event designed to start a war against the Jews. The left is, after all, supposed to be anti-war. Or is there an exception if Israel is attacked?

How many leftists in Europe stood silent when the Nazi's defamed the Jews prior to WWII? Everyone? Why?

You should try to understand what you write. You are again saying that all French are antisemitic. That is enough. Dont ask me to explain the French leftist behaviour, I am not one of them. Forget that some Frenchs have been instrumental in disclosing the case and publishing it.

And continue to indulge your absolute rightness based on arithmetical certitude. I am sure that you would have been a hero during WWII, protecting the Jews against the Nazis.

You probably dont know that the Jews who are able to chase for 20 years those who deserve their hatred, are as stubborn when they want to show gratitude. They have, till recently, confered to those who have protected their children during the darkest hours the title of Juste.

Surprisingly some are French.

[Az]

Yiddish is just Hebrew+German isn't it?

Not exactly, but yes, you could describe it that way.

[Az]

I'd like to use this moment to thank many french people that helped our people during the war. I would also like to thank you for the nuclear reactor.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel

I guess neither of you knows yiddish

Yiddish is the language of the galut. Learn Hebrew!

kein, ani rotze lelomed yotzer ivri, but i will not reject Yiddish - or Ladino, or Judeo-Persian, etc. Zionism and the rebirth of spoken Hebrew are also products of Galut Indeed modern Hebrew has plenty of galut elements, IIUC. the Hebrew that the maskilim revived in the 19thc had been shaped by its religious and occasionally secular uses in the galut for over 1200 years.

[Az]

You still have some way to go, but that's pretty good. Ale ve Hatslah!

Hebrew Hebrew Hebrew *cheer*