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**Dinner** · May 16, 2003, 17:33

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
If NK is bad, would that make Israel good?

Not at all. I was mirely pointing out that your accussation the evil/bad/naughty (insert derogitory phrase here) US can hardly be singled out for sticking up for its friends. You singled the US out like some how it's actions weren't in line with what ever other nation on earth does.

**Chemical Ollie** · May 16, 2003, 17:37

Originally posted by Eli

Instead it allows countries like Egypt and Syria to start wars of annihilation...

Syria or Egypt has been not exactly friendly but at least neutral since 1973 IIRC.

**Eli** · May 16, 2003, 17:37

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre

I would definately call stone throwers terrorists. There are plnty of these in Sweden too. Anyone remember the EU meeting in Gothenbourg 2001? And my UN buddie got a big stone right into his lap through the closed car window in Hebron. But he considers the IDF worse. A stone is preferred to a heavy MG bullet 8 days of the week.

Great. I guess you wont protest if Israel sends half of the Pal kids to detentions camps because they are terrorists.

**Chemical Ollie** · May 16, 2003, 17:40

There is a difference between terrorist and TERRORISTS. Some are just annoying, while others are deadly.

**Eli** · May 16, 2003, 17:45

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
There is a difference between terrorist and TERRORISTS. Some are just annoying, while others are deadly.

Then the vast vast vast majority of the attacks done by settlers are just annoying and one can safely say that major Israeli actions are done only by the IDF and therefore ordered from above, so they can be stopped as soon as terror threats stop.

**Chemical Ollie** · May 16, 2003, 17:52

Originally posted by Oerdin

Not at all. I was mirely pointing out that your accussation the evil/bad/naughty (insert derogitory phrase here) US can hardly be singled out for sticking up for its friends. You singled the US out like some how it's actions weren't in line with what ever other nation on earth does.

1) What good did Israel do that made them your friends?

2) I used US soldiers as an example of "not really bad guys, but somewhat thoughtless" while I referred to IDF as "thoughtless, not caring about other nations citizens at all" to get it more straight

Are you saying every other nation on earth are firing a heavy machine gun blindly in 360 degrees whenever fired upon (which is my buddies literal description of IDF)? At least Swedish UN soldiers are not. They are trained to try to distinguish between friend, foe and neutral before pulling the trigger.

**Eli** · May 16, 2003, 18:06

1) We sided with them during the cold war, while the Arabs sided with the Soviets.

2) Read one of my above posts. The UN soldiers are all nice and humane, but they dont do ****.

**Dinner** · May 16, 2003, 18:13

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
1) What good did Israel do that made them your friends?

First, of all they are the only real democracy in the middleeast unlike every single last one of the Arab states. Second, we feel the Israelis can be trusted to keep their word (again unlike just about everyone of the Arab states). Third, we feel the Israelis are far, far more likely to keep the rule of law over the world's holy sites compared to the alternative. Lastly, for various reasons (some religious some just ideological) most Americans think it is just that the Jews should have their country back and so we wish to help them keep their state.

Are you saying every other nation on earth are firing a heavy machine gun blindly in 360 degrees whenever fired upon (which is my buddies literal description of IDF)? At least Swedish UN soldiers are not. They are trained to try to distinguish between friend, foe and neutral before pulling the trigger.

Not at all. A soldier has a duty, where it is reasonable, to try to single out targets; they also have a right to do what ever is necessary to defend his life or his fellow soldiers lives. The trade off is that if one of those two rights is carried to an extreme then the other will suffer.

I've never been on the blue line like your friend has but I have been a soldier in a hostile fire zone and I can tell you people get jumpy. Now, realize that the Arab scum hide themselves in crowds and dress as civilians. In those circumstances if someone I don't know is running at my position then I'm going to order him twice to get down on the ground, and if he doesn't comply and keeps on running towards me, then I'm going to shot him. I will not risk him being a suicide bomber or a gunman.

It's war and unfortunately in war that is the way it goes. Those people who think other wise are deluded.

**MichaeltheGreat** · May 16, 2003, 18:21

Originally posted by Jaakko

a) Infantry support weapons might well be of a different calibre.

b) I seem to distinctly recall Israel arming the Palestinian security forces at some point, with US-made weapons.

I'm just interested in getting the facts straight.

Assuming the wounds were not all fully penetrating, recovery of the actual rounds that hit Mohammed would allow for verification of whether it's 7.62 x 39 NATO or 7.62 x 39 WP issue ammo. They're not the same, and not interchangeable.

**Chemical Ollie** · May 16, 2003, 18:26

I might reply more on this topic another day. But more on the thread topic - the incident discussed was just one of 100's of kids killed recently. Think about that.

**MichaeltheGreat** · May 16, 2003, 18:31

Kids throwing rocks in front of non-kids throwing copper jacketed lead is in a different category from a kid pinned down in a crossfire and caught on film.

**Chemical Ollie** · May 16, 2003, 18:56

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Kids throwing rocks in front of non-kids throwing copper jacketed lead is in a different category from a kid pinned down in a crossfire and caught on film.

You really have to think a while to realise that the above reply is 100% neutral. Or I'm just slow this late at night.

But what says they are kids and non-kids? 16 and 19 yo are both kids to me... But Ok the kid in question were just 10 IIRC.

**TCO** · May 16, 2003, 19:00

Well what about the Liberty? I could see Israeli's lying. They are a besieged country and will do what they need to do...

**MichaeltheGreat** · May 16, 2003, 19:56

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre

You really have to think a while to realise that the above reply is 100% neutral. Or I'm just slow this late at night.

But what says they are kids and non-kids? 16 and 19 yo are both kids to me... But Ok the kid in question were just 10 IIRC.

A sad fact of life in ME war zones is that kids on both sides grow up real fast.

**Panag** · May 16, 2003, 20:10

hi ,

Siro , a german , reporter made a great docu about it

oh and btw , did ever anyone tought of running the so called original tape in slow motion , .....

the large stone next to the kid and his father seems to move around as the tape rolls on , ..... ( on the oil drum )

the original was moved , never to be found , .....

have a nice day

edit ; typo

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