Abolish Tuition Fees, Vote Conservative!

[*End Is Forever*]

I'm coming to them, don't worry.

[*End Is Forever*]

Old-Skool 'Poly Post!

MikeH,

Getting away from the ridiculous "don't pay tax" argument...

That'd be a good start. **** off Yanks...

I might not be totally behind the current government's policy but at least it is attempting to tackle those two problems, and they are beginning to address the problem of students from poorer backgrounds not wanting to get into debt at uni.

That's quite simply not true.

First of all, every indication is that the government's proposals for tuition fees will put off young people from poorer backgrounds from attending University. Indeed, one can see statistically that there has already been a regression since 1997. Furthermore, the government's social engineering meddling has actually only increased middle-class dominance at Universities; the percentage of middle-class students is actually higher amongst the postcode areas designated "deprived" by the government. Draw your own conclusions...

Secondly, the government is not even beginning to address the problems of underfunding; not a single penny of the money paid by students and their parents in tuition fees since 1997 has been invested in higher education. The new fees - if they produce any more income at all, buried as they are in extra bureaucracy, compromises and the "access regulator" - are going on expansion, not investment.

Once again I'm left feeling that this is another "we should say what they want to hear" Conservative policy with no actual substance behind it.

Right... so when people dislike our policy, we're hopeless, and when we announce a good policy, we're opportunist.

This is an extremely serious, detailed proposal and will be fleshed out further in the coming weeks. Labour are running scared, even NUS has given grudging praise, roll on 2005!

Drogue,

Universities need more money, else they just won't offer a decent degree.

Exactly. The Conservative proposal is to ensure that Universities do just that; should we really continue to fund degrees that are of no benefit to society or to the student?

[MikeH]

Hmmm...

New fees going to expansion - Yes, absolutely. That's where they are supposed to be going. Anyway, your points still don't address the fact that the Conservatives plans don't address the problem of uni underfunding either. All they do is cut uni places so that they can drop tuition fees. I think you are right that neither policy effectively tackles the problem of research underfunding but at least under Labour more people get to go.

As for reductions in low income applications, that's also true. Been some gov't backpedaling on that recently. Which is probably why low income families already dont' have to pay tuition fees, I think they are starting to trickle back in what amounts to a grant for the lowest incomes as well. Both parties are also spouting the same line about getting more vocational courses in place.

I don't think this is a good policy, but it's still attempting to be opportunist.

I also noticed that the other points of the BBC report on this speech were that IDS intends to "Increase police numbers" which Labour is trying to do and struggling with, especially with the housing problems in the SE - only way I can see to do this is to increase pay and conditions as the current recruitment campaigns aren't increasing numbers fast enough. But they are also commited to low taxation. So what are they going to cut to pay for it all? Just sounds like the same thing they've always said and I still don't believe you can have more/better services and pay less tax.

[*End Is Forever*]

Which is probably why low income families already dont' have to pay tuition fees

They have to jump through hoops to avoid payment. Have you seen the forms involved? Also, what about students like my housemate Amy whose parents refuse to contribute, and hence she works 35-hour weeks at TopShop in addition to studying and pays her own fees?

[Boris Godunov]

Re: Old-Skool 'Poly Post!

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Right... so when people dislike our policy, we're hopeless, and when we announce a good policy, we're opportunist.

The question is whether or not it is consistent with past policy and the overall ideology of the party and its current policies. If it isn't, it will certainly smack as opportunistic, coming from a party as far down in the polls as the Tories are.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever* They have to jump through hoops to avoid payment. Have you seen the forms involved? Also, what about students like my housemate Amy whose parents refuse to contribute, and hence she works 35-hour weeks at TopShop in addition to studying and pays her own fees?

No, but it doesn't surprise me. The old grant forms were an absolute nightmare. Much like a tax return.

Sad to say but before fees and grants were abolished she wouldn't have been much worse off. When I went in '94 maintenance grants wouldn't even cover your rent. Not that I got one of course. If they scrap the tuition fees it'd only mean she had less debt when she left, not that she wouldn't have to work 35 hours a week.

[David Floyd]

My comment about war was sarcastic, I thought that was obvious, and directed at PH, not all of you.

Come on, guys

[MikeH]

I wasn't being serious, don't think the other brits I was talking to earlier were either...

[Willem]

Originally posted by MikeH
If they scrap the tuition fees it'd only mean she had less debt when she left, not that she wouldn't have to work 35 hours a week.

That's an important factor in itself. If I didn't have to pay tuitions for my education, I would have saved at least $6-7,000 CAN from what I currently owe. At $283 per month, that shaves at least 3 years off the time it will take me to repay it all, with the interest compounded.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Unlike Labour and the Liberal Democrats, the Conservative Party never introduced tuition fees, and has never been in favour of tuition fees. Quite how it is suddenly our fault is something of a mystery...

Probably because they abolished the Student grant, Income support for students and Housing Benefit for students. Which equated to far more expense than the tuition charges.

Just a thought....

[Drogue]

Did the Lib Dems ever introduce tuition fees? IIRC correctly, they have never been in power, and thus could not have.

Moreover, that was a different conservative party. I very much doubt the Conservatives would have left it tuition fee free for long if they had won in 1997. Public services may be worse now under Labour than they used to be, but I think they would be even worse if the Conservatives had remained in power.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Abolish Tuition Fees, Vote Conservative!

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3022459.stm

That's way too progressive, I think Duncan Smith has been taken over by the ghost of Karl Marx.

[Drogue]

I'm not so sure. It is removing a payment that mostly falls on the middle class, reducing expansion, and thus breaker near to even. It simply means there will be fewer university places, but that those that are they will have to contribute less. If IDS believes it is a "tax on learning" then he is removing tax. If they stick to it, it seems like a good idea, but that is a big if IMHO. I wouldn't call it very progressive.

[MikeH]

He's removing a tax and also removing a lot of learning, it's a very Conservative policy to cut tax by cutting services.

[TheStinger]

Its only cutting service if the people who run the thing chose to do that within theri reduced budget. they could sack their human resources departments and theat would free up millions