Abolish Tuition Fees, Vote Conservative!

[*End Is Forever*]

Mike,

And don't they get loans to pay the fees? So the actual up front cost to the student is still nothing (unless I've totally missed something). So it still has no effect on student wealth.

Nope. The loan can hardly be said to even cover basic living costs... my loan this year barely gives me any change from my housing costs, let alone including food and coursebooks, and my rent is comparatively cheap!

r4e,

It seems to be a 'given' that it's bad for students to work, IMHO studying is not a full time occupation (although I'm sure Mr Forever will claim he consistantly puts in a 40 hour week at the books)

No, you're right, it isn't. It probably should be though. Certainly students should work over the long summer break, and I certainly have done and intend to (I couldn't get by otherwise).

[MikeH]

I was under the impression that the point was supposed to be that the students could get loans to pay the fees.

I just checked and the loans are three times what they were when I was at uni. The max then (outside London) was £1,200 for a full year, now it's £3,900 so effectively you can pay the tuition out of that and still have more left than you had from your loan when I was there.

You can't live on it and it barely covers your rent now, and it never did when I was at uni either.

[*End Is Forever*]

Perversely, you can't actually get the full £3900 if you also have to pay tuition fees...

[*End Is Forever*]

Wasn't there still a grant in your day?

[MikeH]

There was but I only know about 2 people who got one. If both your parents worked full time it'd be almost impossible for you to qualify.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
I don't get it Alex. On one hand, you're saying "who took away the grant?" and on the other "how can you afford to abolish fees?". I know you've got a natural aversion to Conservative governments, but really...

I could ask "which party presided over massive expansion of the higher education sector to the point where it was no longer simply the sole preserve of the upper classes?" but I don't think you'd like the answer much.

As for the poll tax, that has about as much relevence to today's Conservative Party as the three-day week does, and as much as unilateral disarmament has to the present Labour Party.

Aha. 3rd time lucky. I don't support the fact that tuition fees have to be paid, just as I didn't support the abolition of grants. I'd restore grants, and fund them through Income tax.

How would the Tories fund it? Will you answer this one on the third attempt? You see, presenting the Tories as "Friends of the Students" is like presnting the Tsetse Fly as the friend of sub-Saharan livestock farming.

Oh yes? I like the way you put "presided over massive expansion", which is a useful spin on "Didn't do much, really". Which party started the ball rolling, however?

[DanS]

You can't live on it and it barely covers your rent now, and it never did when I was at uni either.

Why not just up those limits slightly to take increased living expenses and tuition into account? Rework the means test slightly, so that it doesn't majorly impair an average parent's spending habits? It is such a long-term asset that a payment period of 30 years or more could be justified.

[MikeH]

Fair point, those loans are government run and very low interest though.

Difficult subject. I basically agree with Laz but I can't see anyone raising income tax to pay for higher education.

[*End Is Forever*]

Personally, I'd certainly look at extending the provision for loans, but we're back at the vexed question of debt...

Laz, perhaps you could tell me the percentage of young people who entered higher education in 1979, and the respective figures for 1990 and 1997? Or the percentage of female students for the same dates? Or the percentage of "working-class" students? Well?

[MikeH]

And you could go and find the corresponding percentages of students living below the poverty line.

[TheStinger]

Students living below the poverty line- oh come off it they could get a job or just put up with being poor for 3 years.

[Solly]

my loan this year barely gives me any change from my housing costs, let alone including food and coursebooks, and my rent is comparatively cheap!

That is an argument for the provision of larger loans, and not an argument for someone else to pay for the investment in your human capital that will provide more benefits to you than anyone else.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Laz, perhaps you could tell me the percentage of young people who entered higher education in 1979, and the respective figures for 1990 and 1997? Or the percentage of female students for the same dates? Or the percentage of "working-class" students? Well?

Perhaps you'd like to tell me what the Tories actually did to achieve that? Or perhaps reflect on the fact that the reason why more 18+ aged people entered higher education post-79 might just have been due to the educational environment established in their preceding 18 years?

Or (more realistically) consider that the increase that the Tories "presided over" was achieved in spite of their acts, and not because of them?

Or even consider that what they "presided over" was the fruits of the long harvest sowed starting back with Clement Atlee and Harold Wilson?

[Solly]

Students make me sick with their endless campaigning to be given money in order to invest in themselves.

Usually it's the same whingers that complain about the Americans freeing a dictated people, or those who hate Israel, or those who care more about the great white newt in their local pond than anything else.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't classed as a student.

[*End Is Forever*]

In which case Stewart I am sure the University of Wales Aberystwyth will be glad to hear you'll shortly be sending them a cheque for £15000 to cover the cost of your tuition.