Abolish Tuition Fees, Vote Conservative!

[Drogue]

I agree completely with MikeH. Universities need more money, else they just won't offer a decent degree. While I'd like the government to pay, and I think they should, I am perfectly happy to pay, and would ratehr that then the universities didn't have enough money. What I wanted to see, was the government making us pay the extra £2000 per year (on top of the £1000 we already pay) and the government matching that, so that universities get an extra £4000 per years per student. That would go some way towards providing a decent university education, when actually just using the extra won't give enough, and many universities will still be in difficulties. I wouldn't mind paying extra, if I knew the government were doing the same.

I think the Tories are just sayignt his to be popular. I doubt they ever will do. And if they do, I think they won't add extra government funding, and thus we would have an even more drastically underfunded university system. After reading an Oxbridge magazine article about it, it reallyb hgihlighted the difference between the US and UK funding differences. Harvard getting over $25,000 per student per year average (IIRC) and with an endorment worth over $20 Billion, and Oxford getting under £8,000 (~$13,000) per student per year average, with an endowment worth £1 Billion (~$1.6 Billion).

How are we meant to compete with that much less funding? Raise fees, means tested if we must, but raise government funding too.

[TheStinger]

Why is the answer throw money at it. I work in the oublic sector, it is a shambolic mess with people running round trying to meet targets that are meaningless, managers deviding new inclusiveness policies and workers moaning about their pay not relaising they get a great deal because of the job security and pensions.

You could make 30% of the public sector redundant overnight and the job could still get done if it was run properly. I have yet to see anything that makes me think Universities are an exception to this. So you could infact have your increased funding if the money was spent correctly in the 1st place.

[MikeH]

Regarding efficiency and management I think that most universities have got pretty good at this recently because their budgets have already been squeezed so tightly. Over the last years they've had to become more efficient to deal with more and more students on budgets that don't increase as fast. I think that further efficiency savings are probably going to be false economies. You could trim staff/building budgets further but you'd end up with run down facilities and even more top staff moving abroad for the higher paying jobs.

Another problem is the link between research and teaching. What we really want is good researchers and good teachers but you very rarely get both in the same person. Not sure what the solution to that is. We want students to learn cutting edge concepts in the subjects although the people we want to teach them are often ill equipped to deliver that quality of teaching.

[Sava]

More campaign promises Don't believe anything politicians say. Especially when they aren't in power.

[CerberusIV]

I went to a UK university back in 1979 and dropped out two years later. At that point student protests over government plans to increase means testing of grants were just starting. Over the following decade government funding for higher education was severely restricted whilst the same government pressured universities to increase student numbers. So government policy forced universities to cope on a lower income per student.

Now the current opposition party advocates increasing grants and limiting student numbers, even if that means scrapping some courses.

The connection? Both are policies of the Conservative party.

Even if I thought they were on the right track (and I don't) I would not vote for the same party who started the mess in the first place.

[TheStinger]

The Tories are just starting to show signs of a revival. They won't win this time but after the next elction who knows. If they keep saying that they believe in public services enough people will start to think they do. Then they might srat to think that there are alternatives to throwing money at them.

In a way this is how Labour returned, they kept saying they wouldn't ruin the economy and wouldn't let the hard left dominate policy, eventually people thought they might be telling the truth and voted them in.(of course it helped that Tony Blair is a charasmatic leader and the Tories were a joke)

[Laertes]

At least the Tories are finally starting to be in opposition. Labour did very well, when they were in opposition in the early 90s, of bringing vaguely credible alternative policies to the fore as a means of attacking the government.They did not implement most of them, but it showed up weaknesses in the then Tory govt policies.

It was an early Thatcherite tactic in the education funding debate to criticise some university degrees as "irrelevant" and to try and force a vocational direction on all studies. I cannot believe that Charles Clarke is now adopting the same tactic with his attack on teaching of medieval history.

[MikeH]

In the end Labour did a much better job running the economy than the Conservatives had been doing and they haven't even let the center left dominate policy.

I still don't trust the Conservatives. They keep coming up with policies that just don't sound convincing to me and they keep doing it in a way that makes it look like shameless attempts to grab votes rather than well thought out policy. I've heard this old line about funding something by cutting other services time and time again. All it does is damage one service to make mild improvements to another.

I agree with what you are saying about Blair though, I don't really agree with everything he does but I think he's a strong leader.

[CerberusIV]

The next general election is probably going to be about europe and joining the euro, not education.

The Tories are still in a mess and papering over the cracks about europe. Labour are about to fudge the issue of joining the euro and not make a decision. That leaves the Lib Dems as the only really pro europe party.

Education may sway some votes, as will healthcare but the economy and particularly whether we go more into europe or not will be the key issue.

[TheStinger]

It will take something radical to really reform the public services(probably from the left) Most Labour people seem to be more concerned though with preserving the traditions of their party than doing anything new though. On Health they seem to think that as they introduced the NHS in 1948 they have to keep it as it was then or they are bertraying it.

tinkering with resources here and there won't help in the long term.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Free education for all!

Anyway, some good my prestigious education did me, degree and experience later and I am still flat on my face...

Likewise. It cost me $20,000 CAN to acquire skills I haven't been able to profit from. I'm right back to where I was before I went to school. And I can't even declare bankruptcy and have that debt nullified. The Canadian government in it's wisdom won't allow that until 10 years after I've finished school, so I can still look forward to 7 years of that hanging over my head.

At least I have some personal use for my knowledge. Rather a costly hobby though.

[Willem]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Yeah, and then we come and save you when the Germans come a-knockin'

When are you guys going to stop harping on about that? Does it look to you like Germany has any intention whatsoever of invading anyone these days? That's ancient history, take a look at the world the way it is now for a change. That whole argument is starting to sound like some old fogey carrying on and on about his "glory days".

PS And it wasn't even that much of a glory. If your country would have joined in right from the start, Hitler would have been defeated long before he did, and countless lives might have been saved. Instead you twiddled your thumbs until you were given no choice in the matter.

[Willem]

Originally posted by CerberusIV


Even if I thought they were on the right track (and I don't) I would not vote for the same party who started the mess in the first place.

But that's a common Tory policy don't you know. The same thing happened here in Ontario, Canada, especially with health care. They slashed budgets all around so their corporate buddies could get their tax breaks, and now we're getting inundated with media messages about all the things they're doing to solve the problems they created in the first place.

As if we're supposed to be grateful or something.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by Willem

When are you guys going to stop harping on about that? Does it look to you like Germany has any intention whatsoever of invading anyone these days?

Thats what they said in the 1930's, we must remain vigilant of the Hun and his nefarious empire building!

[Willem]

Originally posted by reds4ever


Thats what they said in the 1930's, we must remain vigilant of the Hun and his nefarious empire building!

OK, whatever Gramps.

PS Good thing China is the up and coming superpower. At least they have their focus set on the future, and not dwelling on some so called glorious past.