Rugby - Advantage!

[Tamerlin]

This post is the result of another stupid mistake which origins are even more stupid...

[Tamerlin]

This post is the result of a stupid mistake...

[finbar]

You obviously don't learn from your mistakes!

[Tamerlin]

This is all too true my dear Finbar... the drama of my life.

[finbar]

Mon esprit boggles!

[Frozzy]

There is one good thing about the Blues' good performance this season...

The end of the CanterBlacks

[Havak]

An Italian, a Welsman and a Kiwi? Sounds a bit like the start to an old joke, too.

Hmm if I add a lock jaw to the equation and throw in a lippy anti-antipodean I’m sure I could come up with a credible joke in time…

Fine line, I think. If he's making no attempt to get out of the way - fair enough.

The trouble is just throwing a palm upwards at the moment seems to taken as trying to get out of the way. It has affected the game quite badly this season. Clearly I’m happy to admit I’m particularly unhappy because it neuters our forward superiority slightly – but it is a change I dislike in general terms. When I took the field I knew that if I stayed the wrong side I was going to suffer for it – it focuses the mind wonderfully on getting away from there.

It's probably the equivalent, in those exposure terms, of the Heinken Cup

I would have to say I think it’s general standard is slightly higher. Reason being the H Cup has a national quota so two Scots sides will get in despite being diabolical standard. Similarly three Italian sides, four Welsh and three out of four Irish Provinces get in. It’s only when it hits the elimination phases that it becomes a top quality tournament.

Damn hookers.

Strange breed. Suicidal position. Best left to their pints at the bar.

Mmmmm. Cal will now be wetting himself re Saturday night.

Well even I am getting drawn into the excitement – nothing to do with Graham Henry though.

Enough with the tautology already!

What and jeopardise my Masters in Tautological theory?

This introduction is the only chance we have to build a counterweight to the hegemony of the USA and IMO a matter of survival for the EC.

No – the only chance of that is to bring the UK into an inclusive process of Economic Union rather than this bizarre rush to create an exclusive (no more veto – except for Germany and France apparently) federal state.

It doesn’t matter what the EC does if it cannot bring the UK with it – whatever way it is spun the EC without the UK is a toothless tiger.

Are you talking about the Franco-German axis or about those that have created the said tempest instead of thinking and making some creative proposals?

The history of Europe is not really about making great ideas – in fact it consists mainly of stopping really bad ones from either of Germany or France. We are simply fulfilling our destined role.

But seriously Tamerlin – Defence and Foreign policy cannot be brought under central control. Recent events have shown that the UK does not view Defence the same way you do, and we need to be free to disagree like that.

Also of course we are already in NATO – and an EC Defence Force cannot be allowed to alter those commitments at all.

The current proposals are, like so much that comes out the EC, vague and ill defined in terms of scope and timescale. Lets see more details please.

The problem is that you can't play a game when the laws are not the same for everybody because the said game is no more fair.

Ah now we are on safer ground with each other. Have you noticed that SH coaches whine endlessly about NH refs but that NH coaches now keep a respectful silence about SH refs? They didn’t always of course but recently we have taken the moral high ground.

Pity Finbar – his national coach is the only one who physically visits the IRB and whines about the laws that don’t suit his team at that particular moment. Eddie would have laws changed on a whim.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
The trouble is just throwing a palm upwards at the moment seems to taken as trying to get out of the way. It has affected the game quite badly this season. Clearly I?m happy to admit I?m particularly unhappy because it neuters our forward superiority slightly ? but it is a change I dislike in general terms. When I took the field I knew that if I stayed the wrong side I was going to suffer for it ? it focuses the mind wonderfully on getting away from there.

All fair enough. I wouldn't disagree.

I would have to say I think it?s general standard is slightly higher. Reason being the H Cup has a national quota so two Scots sides will get in despite being diabolical standard. Similarly three Italian sides, four Welsh and three out of four Irish Provinces get in. It?s only when it hits the elimination phases that it becomes a top quality tournament.

I'm sure the S12 standard is higher in that sense. What I meant was, it's our only equivalent in terms of a step above straight domestic club footy before we get to, say, Tri-Nations.

Strange breed. Suicidal position. Best left to their pints at the bar.

Yes, odd lot. I've met a few. Very brave - or stupid - people. It has to be the most exposed possie on the field.

What and jeopardise my Masters in Tautological theory?

Crikey, I'd've thought you were Dr Havak by now.

And as for all the EU stuff - bring back the individual currencies! There was nothing I used to love more than doing all the different calculations!

Pity Finbar ? his national coach is the only one who physically visits the IRB and whines about the laws that don?t suit his team at that particular moment. Eddie would have laws changed on a whim.

God bless the Little Aussie Battler!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
And as for all the EU stuff - bring back the individual currencies! There was nothing I used to love more than doing all the different calculations!

Sorry, I can't do anything about that but now you can do all the calculations between the € and the different great moneys of the world like the Kopeck, the Dinar or the Australian Dollar...

Havak, from a continental viewpoint it looks as if the UK were doing their best to stay outside of the EC as much as they can without really working to enter the EC as a full member.

Whether we want it or not the members of the EC are no more big powers but medium powers at best (this is hopefully still the case for the UK, Germany and French)... But our respective armies are tiny forces equipped with pointy sticks and are not really adapted to the modern battlefield. Of course we all have elite units (like those that have been deployed in the Gulf) and our respective governments are all showing them to us as if our whole army was modern and ready for the challenges of the 21th Century... but we are not.

The European war industry is slowly disappearing because the cost of planes, ships, armored vehicles and equipment is increasingly high and because the isolated national governments don't have the financial means to face such expenses. Moreover, you know that the cost is much higher when you buy 10 tanks than the cost when you order 100 or 1000 units.

So our military industry is fading away, well we will buy our equipment elsewhere, in the USA for example... But what would we do the day they don't want to sell us something we need or if they refuse to sell us anything...

If we don't build an integrated defence, the EC willl never be taken seriously on the international level... and this is already the case in numerous part of the world. Unfortunately, military strength is power in this world...

Alone, each european country is a toothless cat...

[Havak]

What I meant was, it's our only equivalent in terms of a step above straight domestic club footy before we get to, say, Tri-Nations.

And that’s a fair point – what I’m not clear on is how that differs from here?

It has to be the most exposed possie on the field.

The only thing with which you can catch the ground, or opposing players limbs, is your face. Yes it take a certain breed all right.

Crikey, I'd've thought you were Dr Havak by now.

Way past the trivial stuff…

And as for all the EU stuff - bring back the individual currencies! There was nothing I used to love more than doing all the different calculations!

Putting the Economic arguments aside I agree – currency gave added character to a place. Having said that when I was in Southern France last year and popping over the border to Spain the Euro made that a real breeze.

God bless the Little Aussie Battler!

Almost agree. God Bless the little Aussie B****** more like.

Havak, from a continental viewpoint it looks as if the UK were doing their best to stay outside of the EC as much as they can without really working to enter the EC as a full member.

I can see how it appears that way – but look at it like this:

We won’t engage because we don’t trust the motives of the other nations and they won’t explain them to us. The EC tells us to engage and trust and then it will explain (if it feels like it). Never going to happen.

And basically the EC message to us seems to be ‘pay up, shut up, don’t expect a say in policy. Give up your veto, we know best for you.’

What I am trying to say is that the other EC members just don’t understand the British psyche at all if they think that will work.

this is hopefully still the case for the UK, Germany and French

We struggle hugely to project force overseas, and the army is being trimmed to the bone. Middle might be pushing it. Goes without saying we are the best equipped of the EC for projecting force however (Island nation remember – we have to project).

But what would we do the day they don't want to sell us something we need or if they refuse to sell us anything

Buy from Fabrique Nationale in Belgium? FNs match anything from Colt surely?

Plus forgive me for saying they are unlikely to refuse to sell things to us. Our stock is okay with them – right or wrongs of recent events aside.

If we don't build an integrated defence, the EC will never be taken seriously on the international level...

Um – the EC isn’t meant to be a nation state. Sneaky Brussels sods should never have been allowed to remove ‘Economic’ from the EEC

Alone, each european country is a toothless cat...

Oh I don’t know – we can still mount supporting actions.

Ah heck I’m not here to argue with you anyway – just wanted to give you the UK perspective (and keep in mind I’m towards the Pro side looking at the EC). Most of us buy into Economic Union and unrestricted trade but have no interest at all in Political Union to be honest.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
And that?s a fair point ? what I?m not clear on is how that differs from here?

Differs? It doesn't. My point was that it's an equivalent. Or have I missed something via my brain strain from writing too many scripts too quickly? Six in the last three weeks!

The only thing with which you can catch the ground, or opposing players limbs, is your face. Yes it take a certain breed all right.

Only their mums could love 'em! And even then with a bag over their heads.

Putting the Economic arguments aside I agree ? currency gave added character to a place.

Having said that when I was in Southern France last year and popping over the border to Spain the Euro made that a real breeze.

Almost agree. God Bless the little Aussie B****** more like.

It's the inscrutable Japanese bit of him that I like.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
I can see how it appears that way – but look at it like this:

We won’t engage because we don’t trust the motives of the other nations and they won’t explain them to us. The EC tells us to engage and trust and then it will explain (if it feels like it). Never going to happen.

The EC has a cost and it must be paid, as we say in France you can't have the butter, the money of the butter and f*** the dairywoman...

And basically the EC message to us seems to be ‘pay up, shut up, don’t expect a say in policy. Give up your veto, we know best for you.

What I am trying to say is that the other EC members just don’t understand the British psyche at all if they think that will work.

I would say that the relationships between the UK and the Franco-German axis are a kind of "mutual cordial distrust"...

We struggle hugely to project force overseas, and the army is being trimmed to the bone. Middle might be pushing it. Goes without saying we are the best equipped of the EC for projecting force however (Island nation remember – we have to project).

True...

Buy from Fabrique Nationale in Belgium? FNs match anything from Colt surely?

I think so... but I was talking about armored vehicles and other high tech military equipments.

Plus forgive me for saying they are unlikely to refuse to sell things to us. Our stock is okay with them – right or wrongs of recent events aside.

I agree but we are nonetheless dependant from another power and this is never good as far as defence is concerned...

Um – the EC isn’t meant to be a nation state. Sneaky Brussels sods should never have been allowed to remove ‘Economic’ from the EEC

I don't agree with you again, if you study the history of the EC it appears its inceptors had a long term plan to build something that is rather close to a federation or a confederation. The problem is that a mere economic union is no more enough... IMO.

Oh I don’t know – we can still mount supporting actions.

Which means once again that we are not self sufficient...

Ah heck I’m not here to argue with you anyway – just wanted to give you the UK perspective (and keep in mind I’m towards the Pro side looking at the EC). Most of us buy into Economic Union and unrestricted trade but have no interest at all in Political Union to be honest.

I know, I know...

And by the way we are not arguing... we have a friendly talk.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
The EC has a cost and it must be paid, as we say in France you can't have the butter, the money of the butter and f*** the dairywoman...

Much more colourful than our "you can't have your cake and eat it too"! God Bless Les Grenouilles!

[Tamerlin]

The part related to the dairywoman is not normally part of the proverb... this is a relatively recent addition to the original sentence.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
Mmmmm. Cal will now be wetting himself re Saturday night.

I reckon they should put Shawnee Fitzpatricee in charge. Have you ever noticed how often rugby commentators put an ee after someone's name as a sign of affection?