Gathering Storm Embassy

[PJayTycy]

I do think we need to create a list of techs each team submits to the pool, and those three lists should be +/- equal points.

Trading 1<->1 with bananas and then 1<->1 with GS will wipe away all the trust we've built with banana and give a bad first impression on GS.

[binTravkin]

That eliminates the tech broker ability, but I get your point.
It will be a bit hard to get Bananas on equal terms with others and we should look that our tech advantage is not lowered too..

[Impaler[WrG]]

******BREAKING NEWS*****

I am in a chat right now with nye and has revealed that Storm has not only meet Vox but they are already engaged in a war in which their Skirmishers have taken over the whole of the Vox countryside. Vox is copper-less and esentialy doomed. Storm will take and keep their Holy City of Hinduism and claim the whole of the presumably large southern half of the continent for themselves!!!!!

Storm says they whent to war after Vox refused to stop scouting the periphery of their cultural borders. He says their were other duplicities on their part and the past history (other games) of Storm and Vox soured relations. It is unlikly that our scout the reach the area in time to ever get Vox's side of the story.

This also explains much of the aparent weakness on Storms part, they have been waring and puting resorces into that effort rather then expantion and Technology. Considering that burden their current strength is actualy impressive, we may have been under-estimating them all this time.

[Lacero]

well we have their power graph, we should be able to work out what they're doing by that?

edit: also this would explain all their questions about our war intentions, they don't want to fight on two fronts

[binTravkin]

Wow that explains why they are/were so paranoid about us and Bananas allying vs them.

Also, that means we should be very careful about what happens after this Vox-GS war.
With the bunch of veteran units and military infrastructure they will have, they might as well decide to take on the somewhat weak Bananas.
We must not allow them to capture the Bananas, or they will be 3 times as big as us and that makes our perspective less bright.
There's hoping they will have run into upkeep problems, though..


As for the Vox - they must be having some weak minds at the cockpit, to annoy one of the best early rushers.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Unfortunatly The begining of the chat got deleted by my IRC client, aparently it only keeps a running log of direct person to person chat unlike the full log of channel chats.

The portion prior to this starts with nye sending the picture now in our box and him describing the Vox war in general outlines. He spoke quite willingly and without the signs of paranoia that plauged our earlier chats. I belive we have made a breakthrough with them. He also made some remarks along the lines of team Banana "being AC's buisness" aparently in aknowlegment of Bananas being our quasi-vassl or atleast in our sphere of influence. They still plan to do tech trading with though and say that Bananas are comunicating better and this has reduced their fear. They also mentioned being a bit confused over Banana tech trading proposals. I informed him of AC's flat refusal and quid-pro-quo stance on tech trading. He didn't express any support for Bananas proposal which I caractarized as a Hippy love-fest of FreeTech totaly unapealing to us the tech leader. I also threw out the idea of us trying for Judiaism as a kind of red heering thought to keep them guessing and see what their reaction would be. If its still avalible post-trading we might want to try it or if Senethro has his way we would go strait for the GreatLibrary or Oracle.


[nye] we know the other side has max 3 teams
[Impaler[WrG]] In any case I dont see how in their present situation (if its as bad as you describe) how any technology could bail them out
[nye] if we assume there is another, single cont
[nye] that is what i tried to hint at in the previous chat
[Impaler[WrG]] yes with Vox eliminated that leaves at most 3 teams remaining in the world
[Impaler[WrG]] yes we did detect a hint that you had come in contact with a 4th team, but we were not shure
[nye] i didn't know how legal it was to discuss Vox specifically and I did not feel I had the backing of my team
[nye] or enough agreement from my team
[nye] at any rate...
[Impaler[WrG]] Understandable, the worst possible thing is for somone else to get involved when you have your neck out in a war effort
[nye] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] well as I was speculating the other 3 teams are on a continent
[Impaler[WrG]] Mercs are by their nature suposed to be nutral for hires
[nye] we know this?
[Impaler[WrG]] just speculating
[nye] ok.
[nye] i am glad we are not in a boat with the Horde and the Mercs
[Impaler[WrG]] this would seem likly that the other two (Sarantium and Horde) might fight each other and each try to pay the Mercs to join them
[nye] possibly
[Impaler[WrG]] In any case I dont see the other teams as being as likly to coperate or have as much territory
[nye] i'm pretty sure beta would be working to get those two fighting
[Impaler[WrG]] beta?
[nye] the founder of sara
[Impaler[WrG]] Sarantium has a beef with Horde?
[nye] more the individuals
[Impaler[WrG]] please forgive my ignorace of all the past history of the other teams
[nye] and the natures
[nye] np
[Impaler[WrG]] so your saying the play styles of Sarantium is warlike?
[nye] no, the horde is
[Impaler[WrG]] oh yess that makes sense :P
[nye] and the mercs to an extent as well
[nye] sara are likely to feel very threatened
[Impaler[WrG]] but the Mercs probably wont initiate a fight unless theirs no one to contract too
[nye] theirs still the position to play. fight for position and resources, or two civs are just too close
[nye] *there's still the po...
[Impaler[WrG]] Like if their on an Island with only one other team they would probly try to knock them off
[nye] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] and make it Mercenary Island
[nye] unless it were very large
[Impaler[WrG]] Sailing around kind like Privaters
[Impaler[WrG]] It would help if naval didn't suck in Civ4
[nye] so, what we are discussing is a straight trade techs on a beaker basis... what other terms?
[nye] no retrade of acquired techs?
[Impaler[WrG]] likly
[nye] no trade with an enemy of any of the three?
[Impaler[WrG]] given the present configuration its not very likly though
[nye] btw, if you want to prevent hinduism from jumping to your cities, declare war on vox when you meet them
[Impaler[WrG]] I think no off-continent trading sounds reasonable
[nye] people on GS might want an embargo on Vox to make it official
[Impaler[WrG]] we have to have Open borders first before religion can spread, and as Vox isn't a threat to us I dont see why
[nye] no misunderstandings
[nye] open borders are not needed for religion spread
[Impaler[WrG]] I think a full non-interaction treaty might be agreeable
[nye] good
[Impaler[WrG]] We would probaly want to talk with them though
[Impaler[WrG]] just to get their side of the story you know
[nye] of course. we don't mean to isolate the individuals.
[Impaler[WrG]] by the way will they be allowed to join your team?
[Impaler[WrG]] Aka assimilation
[nye] not discussed extensively, but it is likely imo
[Impaler[WrG]] I think its a good policy, lets people keep playing the game
[nye] there are no hard feeligns among the players. it boiled down to we as gs did not feel we could trust vox as a team as an opponent
[Impaler[WrG]] Yep the writing on the wall and all that stuff
[nye] ... in their position so close to us
[Impaler[WrG]] Their were similar thoughts on our side when we meet Bananas, the relationship could have soured
[nye] i'll bet
[Impaler[WrG]] fortunatly some good juestures from Bananas which we then recipricated helped us get comfortable
[nye] Vox did the opposite
[Impaler[WrG]] Bananas have also not tried to land grab and squeeze us, instead they whent south giving us room in the west
[nye] wise of them, i'd imagine
[nye] once they started talking to us coherently a lot of concerns about them have lessened
[nye] tbh, our policy is that they are more the concern of ACen than GS assuming we can get a suitable border with them
[Impaler[WrG]] good, I think our continent will be at peace once your war with Vox is over
[nye] we would like that
[Impaler[WrG]] Ok sounds good
[nye] anything else to discuss at this time?
[Impaler[WrG]] lets see back to tech trading
[nye] ok
[Impaler[WrG]] I wanted to get a tenative idea of what you would offer for alphabet
[nye] well, it's pretty obvious you are ahead of us and will be for some time.
[Impaler[WrG]] you know were interesting in your Math and Masonry
[nye] we would obviously put math on the table
[Impaler[WrG]] math is good but I dont think we could trade that straitup for alphabet
[nye] are you interested in extending credits until later trades?
[Impaler[WrG]] Thats a possibility but I think its easier to get trades aproved that are equal at the time of trading
[Impaler[WrG]] rather then X now for Y later
[Impaler[WrG]] thats not to say one trade might not be a little more generous one way and the followup in the other direction to even things out
[nye] ok
[Impaler[WrG]] so tenativly we have math + something for Alphabet
[nye] one moment
[nye] we could do Math, masonry, Archery + 150 beakers for Alphabet and Iron Working
[Impaler[WrG]] Bintravkin just got the news about your Vox troubles, his response...
[Impaler[WrG]] As for the Vox - they must be having some weak minds at the cockpit, to annoy one of the best early rushers.
[nye] heh
[Impaler[WrG]] interesting
[Impaler[WrG]] by +150 beakers yous saying we get a 150 beaker IOU for Storm techs we may want in the future?
[nye] yes
[nye] sorry, was putting a pot of cofee on
[nye] if my math is correct
[Impaler[WrG]] Thats a good offer its definatly got a good chance of passing
[nye] ok
[Impaler[WrG]] A possible variation might be less credit and Animal Husbandry rather then IW
[Impaler[WrG]] but I assume IW is more desirable to you then AH
[nye] i think so, but don;t hold me to it. the point is we are interested in equality of trades
[Impaler[WrG]] as our we, I certanly feel the offer is fair and something along these lines is very likly
[nye] consider it a proposal for both ACen and GS to consider. as i said, we hadn't given a lot of thought to counting beakers due to nana's messages and settling the terms first
[Impaler[WrG]] Trading IW and AH are not sticking points with us, the only real issue will be Alphabet as their is a camp interested in maintaining a monopoly their
[nye] oh, well. then we have to do it ourselves and that will simply slow down trading\
[Impaler[WrG]] I am hoping they dont win
[nye] i have to share your hope
[Impaler[WrG]] Assuming I cant get aproval for Alphabet trading we would probably default back to Archery + Masonry 4 IronWorking
[Impaler[WrG]] with some credit as nessary
[nye] there are some on GS who would be against any trades without alphabet
[nye] i don;t know if they would win
[Impaler[WrG]] IC
[Impaler[WrG]] give me an impression of what we might be able to trade that 150 tech credit for in the future?
[nye] i hope you can understand that it would be a very uneven relationship until nana and we could trade
[Impaler[WrG]] Do you know the Nanas current tech list?
[nye] yes, we received an email
[Impaler[WrG]] what are you thinking of trading with them, if I may ask?
[nye] i'm not sure. as i said, we have not looked at it very much
[nye] i am improvising in this discussion with you
[Impaler[WrG]] Were currently urging them to go Fishing/Sailing for trade to us, we would apresiate it if Storm did not incentivate them away from that task
[nye] that is a fair request
[nye] i see they have a lot we need anyway
[Impaler[WrG]] consider it a counterpart to your Vox non-intercourse request
[nye] ok
[Impaler[WrG]] ??? Nanas have a lot that you need
[nye] some. AH, Meditation, Priesthood. they will have fishing, sailing
[Impaler[WrG]] I though your people were land locked making fishing/sailing of no value and with Budism founded Meditation is useless as well
[Impaler[WrG]] only Priesthood for the Oracle seems to be good, and AH which we have as well
[nye] have to go through them sometime. the point is we will have some things to trade
[Impaler[WrG]] Yes theirs always some possibilities
[Impaler[WrG]] lets see do you still expect to go for Construction
[nye] i think so
[Impaler[WrG]] if we could be confident of trading the 150 beaker credit towards that then I think we are more likly to have a deal
[nye] i think you can use the iou whenever you like so long as it is a good trade for both of us
[Impaler[WrG]] sounds good
[Impaler[WrG]] I had been toying with the idea that someone on the continent should go for Judism if it isn't taken before we trade
[nye] that could be a good tech for you guys to be first to
[Impaler[WrG]] As Vox probably isn't going to do it and their are only 3 other teams that might get their before one of us theirs a chance one of us could get it
[nye] yes
[nye] we can tell you that we have no problems if you beat us to it
[Impaler[WrG]] I'll see what my team mates think, I think its only a slim chance to still be avalivle
[nye] actually, quite likely
[nye] vox have other concerns and i'm sure the other 3 have a lot too once they discovered each other
[Impaler[WrG]] you think, It dosn't have that many requirements
[nye] yes, but you have to take time to do it
[nye] if you are alone with mercs and horde, would you take the time?
[Impaler[WrG]] true, but we will be on Alphabet for a good long time now and then actualy researching Polytheism and Monotheism is even longer
[Impaler[WrG]] I wouldn't even consider it if we weren't getting masonry
[Impaler[WrG]] in trade from you.. I hope
[nye] oh. there's one other issue to consider...
[Impaler[WrG]] yess....
[nye] assume we have arranged a trade... and then we get a tech from a hut... is the trade effected?
[Impaler[WrG]] I dont see why it would invalidate a prior agreement
[nye] -in some other dg's a clause is used that the trade goes on regardless of the source of the techs
[Impaler[WrG]] If you wanted to re-negotiate bringing the new tech to the barganing table thats also reasonable
[nye] no, i mean we have arranged for iw and alpha for whatever we give for them... and then we pop iw from a hut
[nye] techs from huts, or third parties that are already agreed to
[nye] the techs are part of the trade agreement
[Impaler[WrG]] IC
[nye] think about it
[Impaler[WrG]] well thats a good point
[Impaler[WrG]] I see from your screen theirs still un-explored space on your continent
[nye] it's happened in previous dg's
[nye] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] so you expect theirs a good posibility of you getting a pop tech
[nye] i'd say so
[Impaler[WrG]] and having killed Vox's scout theirs probably huts in the area behind their city, assuming you havent explored that either
[nye] possibly
[Impaler[WrG]] well Alphabet cant be obtained from a hut correct
[Impaler[WrG]] I belice their are some tags on the tech xml that determine this
[nye] i'm not aware of that, but possible
[Impaler[WrG]] a [GoodyTech] tag or something like that
[Impaler[WrG]] I could check the source code
[nye] but there are other techs and other huts and other civs. laying out the groundwork for the general agreement, not just this trade
[Impaler[WrG]] AH and IW I'm shure are popable I've done so in Single player
[nye] same here
[Impaler[WrG]] well lets consider this possibility, if Storm pops either of thouse we could substitute the other tech in its place
[Impaler[WrG]] so if you pop IW we substiture AH and reduce the beaker IOU
[nye] but what if we have an agreement with nana for AH?
[nye] what i'm interested in is establishing the way these trades will be done. is a deal a deal?
[Impaler[WrG]] humm
[nye] can we count on it?
[Impaler[WrG]] So far AC hasn't made any binding deals with anyone, we dont realy have a formal process for it
[nye] oh
[Impaler[WrG]] I think we could come up with some process by which a Treaty document is signed off by both sides
[Impaler[WrG]] brb
[nye] it is something to think about
[Impaler[WrG]] back
[Impaler[WrG]] well I think we could make contingency plans for both of the two likly cases
[nye] let me know what you guys want to do
[Impaler[WrG]] Or as you said in their would be a clause that trade continues regardless
[Impaler[WrG]] Do you favor a particular aproatch?
[nye] that is farily common in other games
[nye] the trade continues, most likely
[Impaler[WrG]] ok I'll see what the others feel about it, I suspect they will be receptive
[nye] ok
[Impaler[WrG]] As we already have the north explored were not likly to get any more pops, and we will soon be past the popable techs in any case
[nye] lots to take back to the teams. anything else for today?
[Impaler[WrG]] I think you said Vox has only one city, is that correct?
[nye] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] Did you destroy any yet or did they just never have the chance because of the war
[nye] never had a chance due to war
[nye] this started very early
[nye] i don;t beleive they ever built a worker
[Impaler[WrG]] realy
[nye] but they got archery in time to save the cap
[nye] ... for the time being
[nye] we will have a second city next turn
[Impaler[WrG]] and they have been scraping together archer after archer from that point on
[nye] pretty well
[Impaler[WrG]] with un-improved terrain
[nye] yes, and skirms camped in some of the better tiles
[Impaler[WrG]] boy they are doomed, I dont see why they dont capitulate
[Impaler[WrG]] what do the rules say about that anyway?
[nye] it's never been proposed to them
[nye] i don;t think the rules say anything
[Impaler[WrG]] And their too pridefull to sugjest it
[nye] possibly
[Impaler[WrG]] well you said your getting a second city, will this city be coastal or will that take some time longer
[nye] or it never occured to them... or they and we are waiting for the other side to speak first
[nye] some time longer for coastal. i'll have to check with the builders for the time to a port
[nye] brb
[Impaler[WrG]] so I gather things have gone silent between you and Vox after the outbreak of hostilities, no quarter requested, none given
[nye] pretty much
[Impaler[WrG]] No begging for mercy by them or gloating by you
[nye] true
[Impaler[WrG]] Dosn't give a diplomate much to do, dose it
[nye] they called us 'mother *****es'. it was a funny message
[nye] that was right after we killed the scout
[Impaler[WrG]] I take it if we ever spoke to them they would blame the whole thing on your team :P
[nye] of course
[nye] that's always how it works
[Impaler[WrG]] besides their inflamatory actions how do you think they played?
[nye] not so good
[Impaler[WrG]] I would expect them to losse to Skirmishers regardless, but did they put up a good fight
[nye] no
[nye] to begin with, they were on religious techs and doing things that a neighbour said 'don't or else...'
[Impaler[WrG]] If no worker then I guess they tried to grow their pop initialy and whent religion
[nye] does that sound like a good move?
[nye] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] I personaly always go worker first in SP
[nye] brb
[nye] i have a couple errands to run. can we continue this later if you have other things to discuss?
[Impaler[WrG]] If start with Mystism I may try for a religion, if not I go strait for the improvment techs
[nye] Senethro is hailing me
[Impaler[WrG]] well actualy I'm about out of usefull topics and was about to de-volve into general strategy ramblings
[Impaler[WrG]] and then I was going to shamlessly plug my Mods on you
[nye] heh.
[Impaler[WrG]] Have you see the Lopez's Civilizeditor
[nye] i gotta go though. be back in 45 or 60 minutes. maybe get a channel going with Senethro and I'll come back
[Impaler[WrG]] Its an IN GAME tech tree editor that can write the changes to XML
[Impaler[WrG]] and he's extending int to Units/Buildings ect
[Impaler[WrG]] I recomend you try it out
[nye] ok. i have to go

[binTravkin]

Two things:

1.
They're obviously b-lining for elephants and cats
The Vox will be dead when they get there

Why do they need that war materiell so soon?


2.
Their threats to research Alphabet themselves are next to empty.
They wont step away from their B-line if they really intend what I suspect about them (conquest of continent) and they dont have the research potential to do so in a reasonable time even if they'd redirect efforts.


To summarize:
Masonry: 114
Maths: 357
Construction: 500
Total: 971

Let's assume by the time they finish this, their research output will be triple the current (they can easily double), and assume that during this research their average research output is double the current.
That means they can finish Construction in no sooner than 40 turns (I'd think in ~50), which would approximately be the time we get to chukos (if we dont get pyramids).
At that moment we should be completely ready to charge, or we'll be late and become one with an enemy three times our size and better units until we get to CS/Guilds/Engineering.

At some point we could even be somewhat protective of Bananas, to delay GS' attack on them.

[binTravkin]

Here's a screenshot GS provided (forgot to upload), showing how strangely close they are with Vox, 2 elephant resources and a marble resource.

[Impaler[WrG]]

FOLLOW UP CHAT

This was about an hour after the initial chat and Senethro attended as well, I felt he was a bit forward about our feelings towards Bananas but I pointed out it was his personal oppinion, every teams got differences of opinion after all. I didn't think it should be our official position.


[Senethro] nye, would you be willing to share with us the motivations of the camp in GS that requires Alphabet as part of any trade?
[Impaler[WrG]] I think he is away
[nye_away] log sent
[Impaler[WrG]] thanks nye
[nye_away] Senethro... actually, i am anticpating a little, but how workable is the relationship among the three of us if GS and Nana can't trade?
[Senethro] That depends on if Nana stop mismanaging I suppose...
[Senethro] I can see a scenario where they get left behind.
[nye_away] i suppose they might fall behind if they do not build well
[Senethro] They've not shown a propensity to good play so far.
[nye_away] that was our concern with the earlier diplomacy, or lack thereof
[Impaler[WrG]] I'm hoping they can turn it around
[nye_away] the good thing with so many techs and lines is that there should be a place for a weaker toeam to help out
[Impaler[WrG]] I dont expect them to always be a bit behind AC and GS tech wise being non-financial
[Senethro] What are they again? Creative/???
[Impaler[WrG]] Yes and we have been thinking along thouse lines, Monarchy would seem to be a possible goal for them which neither of us is persuing
[nye_away] Senethro, they are Ind/Cre
[Impaler[WrG]] Well you can understand that AC would naturaly want to keep the Alphabet monopoly to enshure it cant be bypassed
[nye_away] you mean nana and we trade without ACen?
[Impaler[WrG]] yes, generaly my strategy is to marginalize the tech leader and preferentialy trade with middle of the road players
[nye_away] or, how bypassed?
[Impaler[WrG]] atlast in SP, I admit I dont play MP
[nye_away] hmmmm... how long do you think nana would live if we were to try that?
[Senethro] To put it more directly, we want nana to never present a threat to us.
[nye_away] i see.
[nye_away] that should not come as a large surprise to us
[nye_away] how can we make ACen more comfortable with the situation? One way or the other, we or Nana will get Alphabet
[Impaler[WrG]] With our current tech lead they cant threaten us so we are keen to keep that lead at a healthy level
[nye_away] demographics tell me you should not have a hard time doing that
[Impaler[WrG]] Our concern is that you might bost them by trading to be on par with us
[Senethro] So what we'd like to do is to offer a preferential trading relationship.
[Senethro] That we trade with each other before the bananas, wherever possible.
[nye_away] hmmm. go on
[Senethro] We would give first offer of any tech trade to each other.
[Senethro] And we would be able to /politely request/ that the bananas do not receive a particular tech for a long while.
[Senethro] I suppose that techs that give offensive military units would be the most obvious example.
[nye_away] what could we tarde to them?
[nye_away] *trade
[Senethro] Well thats just it. Our ideal situation would be us trading only with each other.
[nye_away] You would never trade with Nana?
[Impaler[WrG]] Senethro is expressing his own opinions which I doupt would be excepted by AC as a whole
[Senethro] As long as they had nothing to offer us, because our cooperation kept us ahead.
[Senethro] Yes, sorry :P
[nye_away] ok. clear on that
[Senethro] I'm slightly more concerned about diplomatic security than the AC consensus.
[Impaler[WrG]] The Nanas though they are obviously the weakest researcher on the Continent can still make valuable contributions
[Impaler[WrG]] mostly researching non-military techs like Monarchy and the like
[nye_away] Senethro, I think GS should be aware of ACen's concerns and take them into account. I agree with Impaler that they can do a lot of useful techs
[Impaler[WrG]] Thats what were hoping for, them in a supporting and non-threatening role
[Senethro] And similarly, we'd like to know GS's concerns.
[Impaler[WrG]] not exclusivly in support of AC mind you , in support of the continent
[nye_away] OK, senethro. That is appreciated
[nye_away] well, by the terms of what Impaler and I discussed, Nana could not get IW from us.
[nye_away] they will have to trade with ACen for it since we could not retrade a tech received from ACen
[nye_away] and to be honest, in the long run, it serves our interests to have a major trading partner...
[Senethro] Our thoughts exactly.
[Senethro] We have no idea what those barbarians on a far continent are planning.
[nye_away] it would not serve our interests to fuel an arms race that could see outr major partner bogged down in a conflict
[nye_away] if it ever came to blows with Nana, our interests would be that it be quick
[nye_away] can i ask a question?
[nye_away] far reaching question
[Senethro] Fire away.
[nye_away] what is the preferred victory method for ACen?
[Senethro] Personally speaking: By any means necessary.
[Senethro] Whatever opportunity presents itself.
[Senethro] Impaler?
[nye_away] thing with civ is that bigger is not always better
[Impaler[WrG]] I havent seen any discussion on it, nore have I even though about it much myself
[nye_away] conquest would be very difficult given the economics
[Impaler[WrG]] To be honest I almost never actualy finish my SP games once I am way ahead in score
[Senethro] Heh, same here.
[nye_away] ever tried to conquer the world?
[Senethro] I forget, are there any forms of alliance permitted in DGs?
[Impaler[WrG]] Nope too tedious
[nye_away] yes alliance. no alliance victory
[Senethro] Meh. Sucks.
[Impaler[WrG]] So only one team can "win"
[nye_away] in this game, i think space ship is nmost likely
[Impaler[WrG]] thats going to take a LONNNNG time
[Senethro] Yeah, intercontinent warfare is difficult.
[Impaler[WrG]] though I guess with 1 less team it will speed up
[nye_away] conquest would take longer, if even possible
[nye_away] war turns take a very long time, especially later in the game
[nye_away] and then 2 or 3 well built empires can easily take down a hegemon
[Impaler[WrG]] but most of the time is actualy taken up my turns siting in mailboxes
[nye_away] as you grow, your economy turns to goo
[nye_away] true that. one less team will speed things up
[Impaler[WrG]] because of the whole upkeep mechanism
[nye_away] yes. upkeep combined with distance to palace and growing numbers of cities
[Impaler[WrG]] Theirs still a lot to be said for mass and snowballing, it wouldn't be civ if their wasn't
[nye_away] yes, but against humans it is not so easy
[Impaler[WrG]] So long term were looking at some intercontinental warfar possibly with whole continents allied against each other
[nye_away] humans in real time mp, maybe, but in email where 20 pairs of eyes are looking at the situation for days at a time...
[nye_away] we could well be looking at that, Impaler
[Impaler[WrG]] Their not stupid like the AI's
[Impaler[WrG]] Also theirs bragging rights in being second, third ect ect
[Impaler[WrG]] Vox is aparently in 7th place
[nye_away] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] unless one of the others is also at war
[nye_away] can i ask another question?
[Impaler[WrG]] but that seems unlikly right now
[Senethro] Sure, but I want to speak next :P
[Impaler[WrG]] fire away
[nye_away] what would the players of ACen think if GS offered capitulation terms to Vox?
[Senethro] What kind of terms?
[nye_away] Join us now and join our team, or take your chances later when we take your only city
[Impaler[WrG]] I personaly dont see much effect as your going to concour them anyways
[Senethro] So they would voluntarily abandon their city, let you capture it and join your team?
[nye_away] that's about it, Senethro
[Impaler[WrG]] well it dose spare your troops the bloody nose of taking the city
[Senethro] Personally, I think its your call. Not our business to interfere.
[Impaler[WrG]] but thats about it so I agree with Senethro
[nye_away] i would not have asked, but Impaler asked why we hadn't
[nye_away] players could be very touchy about collusion
[Senethro] If you were to take them as a vassal team leaving them their own cities, I would feel a bit off about that.
[Impaler[WrG]] well once their your team mates your only colluding with yourself :P
[nye_away] which is why i've never brought it up with vox despite thinking about it a long time ago
[Senethro] It would be like having too capitals and half city maintenance costs.
[nye_away] that's an interesting view Sneethro, I had not thoguht of that
[nye_away] sorry to brutalise your name
[Senethro] Something of an exploit.
[Impaler[WrG]] Admitedly though it would be legal, atleast I think it would legal
[nye_away] vassals may very well happen. they have happened before
[Senethro] So asking them to surrender is probably good game mechanics and good for including them in the game.
[Impaler[WrG]] Perhaps you would be playing the expantion :P
[nye_away] heh
[Impaler[WrG]] then it would be legal
[nye_away] but actual vassal states have happened before. twice in the ptw demo game
[Impaler[WrG]] Ceriously though the head-ache of managing that kind of relationship would be a pain
[nye_away] first a team called Lego saved Vox when GS killed them
[nye_away] then later GS saved a roll-playing team when they went down
[nye_away] *role-playing
[Impaler[WrG]] If I were personaly on a team reciving that offer I would say "just kill us and let us join your team"
[Impaler[WrG]] To accept means your just agreeing to spend the rest of the game as someones b****
[nye_away] yes
[Impaler[WrG]] but if you join the concourer it kind of re-vitalizes the game, your now in a stronger team and can take revence on inocent 3rd parties :P
[nye_away] heh
[Senethro] Ok.
[Senethro] You vassalising them probably puts a spin on what I'm about to say.
[nye_away] go ahead
[Impaler[WrG]] I remember when the Cycon faction I was on defeted the Pirate faction in the Second ACDG, they turned down our offer to assimilate (we were a lame Borg knockoff anyways)
[Senethro] I was going to offer you a scam on Vox.
[Impaler[WrG]] So we banished them to a tiny city far from us
[Senethro] With your permission, we would approach Vox.
[Senethro] We would ask them to donate all their tech to us a turn before they died, which we would then use to wreak revenge on you.
[Senethro] Except of course we would share it for our mutual benefit.
[Impaler[WrG]] They must have Polytheism and maybe something else too
[nye_away] very nasty, and perhaps a good plan, but they are unlikely to develop any good tech. it may be buried in chat logs, but they have one city, no workers, and skirms fortified in some of the better tiles
[Impaler[WrG]] But I doupt you will want to string things out for the amount of time that would take
[nye_away] let me just say that any tech you could get from them without having to give them anything in return would be welcomed by GS
[Impaler[WrG]] I think its a nice plan in theory but the rewards are too slim and unlikly and the time frame is bad
[Impaler[WrG]] Our scout isn't even yet south of the Banana city
[nye_away] it is not something to waste a lot of effort on
[nye_away] and there is a lot of ground to cover and times grow dangerous
[nye_away] ANIMALS AND BARBS
[nye_away] oops
[Impaler[WrG]] I would rather use the scout to explore the west coast for establishing a trade linkage
[nye_away] i can see that being a priority
[Senethro] Could you take a rough guess at how many turns it would take to reach Vox, nye?
[Impaler[WrG]] we need a continues strip of coast
[Senethro] For a scout that is.
[Impaler[WrG]] let me look at the screen you sent us, it might be possible to calculate it exactly
[nye_away] 7+ turns depending on where you are
[Senethro] I reckon thats worth a go for Polytheism, right?
[Senethro] With the permission of the rest of the GS team.
[Impaler[WrG]] yep 7 turns from the top of that screen you sent us and were not even their yet
[nye_away] ACen should feel free. but take into account there is a lot of ground with wolfs and panthers and no other military units
[nye_away] and the odd bear
[nye_away] when are barbs due, anyway?
[Impaler[WrG]] you also have to factor in that we cant trade yet
[Senethro] Ummmm. Could we open borders and move through your territory?
[nye_away] we aren't on the way to them.
[Senethro] Eh.
[nye_away] we are beside them
[Impaler[WrG]] Senethro did you see the screenshot Storm sent
[nye_away] it's roughly the same distance to us as to Vox
[nye_away] we might be a little further due to less ideal movement
[Senethro] durrr screenshot?
[Impaler[WrG]] I think our scouts atleast another 4 turns from the top of Storms Screen shot
[Impaler[WrG]] theirs some dense jugle to plow through, I hate jungle
[Senethro] :/
[Senethro] We need to be exploring anyway and at least it'll give us a chance vs. panthers
[nye_away] are you still north of the nana city?
[Impaler[WrG]] I think they made jungle too bad in Civ4, its worse then desert
[Impaler[WrG]] were kind of circling around to the west of it right now
[nye_away] oh, yeah, can;t go through before writting
[Impaler[WrG]] more north of it then south
[Senethro] chop it down and you get a grassland.
[nye_away] brb
[Impaler[WrG]] me too
[Impaler[WrG]] back
[nye_away] browsing and typing up some material for my team. i am still here if not too chatty
[Senethro] I can't think of anything more.
[nye_away] i'll keep this open in case something comes up
[Impaler[WrG]] nye do you know anything about how Blake got his AI mods into the 2.08 patch?
[nye_away] not really, Impaler. I have been busy with work and these darned dg's
[Impaler[WrG]] I was thinking of asking him and just wondered if you knew
[Impaler[WrG]] He is on your team right
[Impaler[WrG]] I dont imagine he partispates much with all the moding work he's doing
[nye_away] yes.
[nye_away] he does a fair bit
[Impaler[WrG]] I know I barly play the game anymore outside of testing code
[Impaler[WrG]] ok well perhaps you could put in a good word for me
[nye_away] ok. i will try to introduce you
[nye_away] but i have never seen him in a chat
[Impaler[WrG]] jk I'm shure he will be receptive if I just post in his AI development thread
[nye_away] he is a very socialble guy
[Impaler[WrG]] Ok well I'm done for diplomacy as well, and I just started some Raman noodles, I'll keep this open incase anyone wants to talk
[nye_away] in that he welcomes discussion, especially on topics of interest
[nye_away] ok
[Impaler[WrG]] away
* nye_away gives channel operator status to Impaler[WrG]
* Senethro has quit (Quit: )

[N35t0r]

So blake is active in their team. for not underestimating them...

Also, we should offer to let them trade stuff with the nanas via us...

[binTravkin]

You guys were balancing on the very edge.

[Maniac]

Blake is a beta tester, no?

And CyCon was no lame Borg knockoff.

Btw, anyone ever considered we might all be on one big landmass connected by isthmuses?

[N35t0r]

Yeah, but if we are, snoopy did a poor job balancing it, so I'm willing to believe that he rather put two groups of two teams on two mini-continents separated by an ithmus, and the remaining three teams (which included the merc due to their strange team concept) on a second continent.

[binTravkin]

Well, looking how close Vox and GS are, the poor balancing bit seems rather true, especially knowing that they're old rivals..

[Aeson]

Hey... if you're going to blame the mapmaker, at least know who is responsible. I was involved as well, so don't lay it all on snoopy.

The map was looked at according to the team votes which dictated that we would use a random continents map reviewed and balanced if necessary, not designed. Obviously people's views of what constitues "balanced" will differ. Some might prefer symmetry to irregularity, or vice versa, other factors such as distance, resources, ect will vary, and everyone will have their own view as to what extreme/moderation in those regards. The team votes were for continents map though, which gives irregular results. This suggests to me that the teams were after more irregular (though still viable) starts in favor of more symmetrical ones.

Giving the specific criteria before creating a map or mentioning any here that aren't already publicly known would undermine the whole point of having a random map. Needless to say the map is "balanced" according to the criteria snoopy and I went into the process having decided upon. While you have a right to determine for yourselves whether it is "balanced" well based on your own criteria, it's hardly a well-founded claim to do so given what limited knowlege you have of the map so far and of the potential choices that have been made by other teams.

I would also say that just looking at distance between starts is going to ignore most of what matters to gameplay, as there are obviously many factors involved. Not to mention that while there are potential drawbacks to being close, there are potential benefits as well.

As for accounting for the team's past... If any team were to make irrational decisions based on the past, it's not our fault. Balancing the map around such things would be relying on divination at best, and could have been considered a conflict of interest as well. We could have made decisions to help balance things around the personalities we were familiar with, but not for those we are not. Meaning teams comprised of our friends would have been more likely to be "advantaged" by accounting for personality. As already mentioned elsewhere, the map was balanced without regard to which teams would get what starting location, which really was a must. I can live with people not agreeing with what I think of as "balanced", but don't want to open any doors to having my integrity questioned. (BTW, In the first PTWDG snoopy was on Vox, I was on GS.)