Imperio: Diplomacy Thread #2

[Sullla]

To win this game, we desperately need this agreement with Imperio. I think we should tell them we agree with all terms, except giving them Jerusalem. They cannot possibly expect us to kill all the Templar units, capture their cities, AND gift those cities to a rival team. That is completely insane.

Imperio is already asking for a lot - like, really a LOT - to say they won't even enter the war until after we capture Jerusalem. Again, I think we can concede the point because we need this peace so badly, but we are not going to sacrifice our army to capture a city, only to hand it over to them. That cannot be part of the deal.

I hate the fact that they're basically saying "we will throw the game to PAL and make no attempt to win unless you agree to these terms." It makes a mockery of the game we've played the past 12 months, like a player in Diplomacy throwing their supply centers to the board leader. Major thumbs-down to that.

[ruff_hi]

The Big Blah

http://www.chatzy.com/136099842815

Transcript as of Wed Jun 10 16:50:53 2009 GMT (14 KB)
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Spoiler:

sooooo yo ho
mh hi. sooo, were u just logged into the game?
Ruff_Hi hi there
regoarrarr from x.x.x.245 joined the chat 44 minutes ago
sooooo nope
regoarrarr i think dsplaisted was logge din
sooooo is was dsplaisted
Ruff_Hi and just so we only have one version of this chat ... I'll post a nice color coded copy when we are done
sooooo not sure what PAL gived imperio
regoarrarr i'm worried about banana
sooooo gunpowder to banana and PAL for sure
sooooo banking to imperio
mh Yep, its worst acse scenario:
mh Banan got Gunpowder from Imperio
mh PAL got Guunpowder form Imperio
mh Imperio got Nationalism from PAL
sooooo what else could PAL give to Imperio?
regoarrarr why would imperio possibly do that on the heels of just emailng us with a nat / gunpowder trade?
regoarrarr it just defies logic?
sooooo ah, maybe education.
regoarrarr we should be able to tell once someone logs in and checks f4, right?
mh Banana - Imperio = Banking - Gunpowder
sooooo oh, mostly harmless seems to be in the game
sooooo dammnit
mh Imperio - pAL = Gunpowder - Nationalism
sooooo riiiiiight.
Ruff_Hi that makes no sense
mh I am chatting with Banana.
sooooo good.
regoarrarr i was going to say i guess that expected email from banana isn't going to give us warm fuzzies....
Ruff_Hi want to take bets he is considering siding with PAL?
regoarrarr right
mh Banana:"Yeah, I think we just inadvertenly screwed you. I got trigger happy.!
sooooo hmmmm
regoarrarr i mean from his standpoint, PAL is going to whup him when their NAP runs out
sooooo how is he planning to make it up to us?
sooooo no, i don't think donovan is turning on us.
mh hahahahah. We cankepp our horses, he says. Man I am pissed.
sooooo i want gold, not horses
regoarrarr would a tech accept misclick, if that even is it (i still think it was conscious and this is spin) be grounds for a reload?
mh Donovan is asking for our ETA on Gunpwoder. Right now I dont want to tell him
sooooo just tell him,
sooooo presumably he is working on a deal
sooooo but we want some gold in compensation for having to research it ourselves.
Swiss_Pauli from x.x.x.184 joined the chat 32 minutes ago
mh I am logged out.
mh Have to do dinner now. Man, I am pissed.
Sullla from x.x.x.115 joined the chat 31 minutes ago
mh Will post Banana chat in the forum
regoarrarr not lookin good sulla and SP
regoarrarr banana traded banking to imperio for gunpowder
regoarrarr pal traded nationalism to imperio for gunpowder
Sullla ya know, it's really amazing how everyone is willing to work with PAL and not us
Sullla I swear, the other teams don't seem to care at all about winning
Swiss_Pauli no, we seem to have been pwnd, big time!
Sullla Banana is determined to cement their own doom, sheesh
sooooo OK. What are our chances of saying to Imperio: "We accept fully your terms. We will sign peace and get gunpowder from you next turn. It appears you already have nationalism, so no need to give you it"
regoarrarr yeah i think i lean towards just siding with imperio
regoarrarr and perhaps beng "creative" with the terms of our fulfillment
Sullla wow, this is bleak
Sullla screwed over by our only tech partner
Sullla I have to say, this has bummed me out big time
mh You guys realize that There was a PAL Imperio deal in place depending on Donovan not supplying us Gunpwoder. Forget Imperio, they are not playing straight
sooooo how do you know?
dsplaisted from x.x.x.203 joined the chat 27 minutes ago
Sullla did Banana really do that by accident?! I find that impossible to believe
Sullla they could NOT have screwed us over that badly by mistake
Sullla I can't believe that
Swiss_Pauli the trade order was Imperio-Banana then Imp-PAL
Swiss_Pauli he says he got trigger happy
sooooo ok, the question is: how to we move from here and get the most out of the current situation
sooooo firstly: how much are we willing to screw over imperio and break deals
sooooo we could agree to their peace deal, but ignore the terms. pretty imoral.
Swiss_Pauli i don't see any option that to accept imperio's deal...
Sullla I dunno... I guess we do that, sooooo
sooooo or we could agree to their peace deal and exploit their wording to the max
Swiss_Pauli ...and we have time to decide whether we double cross
Sullla everyone else has been screwing us left and right throughout the game thus far
sooooo but don't technically go against the agreement
regoarrarr that's what i think
T-hawk from x.x.x.66 joined the chat 21 minutes ago
regoarrarr we agree with imperio
sooooo either way, i think we have send a simple email to Imperio saying "We accept your terms. It is tough but we value peace with you over templar cities".
regoarrarr then get creative with the terms
sooooo Then after they accept peace we ask them for gunpowder
sooooo say "We had a deal! Pay up the tech!"
Ruff_Hi agree the peace deal but spell it out ...
Ruff_Hi 1) peace 2) gunpowder from Imperio to RB 3) Nationalism from RB to Imp 4) NAP, etc
sooooo Then we have time to either completely break the terms of the agreement and capture Constantinople and Jerusalem. Or we take a long time to capture Jerusalem and capture it straight back after we gift it when our NAP runs out
Ruff_Hi and we want them in the fight against Templar straight off to seal the deal
sooooo No, I don't think we do Ruff
regoarrarr nah ruff i think if we counter then they'll just fade away
sooooo If we get a peace deal, our northern army is so big that we don't need their help
sooooo they sit by while we hit the templars
regoarrarr i say we something like what someone mentioned upthread - we agree completely and will expect gunpowder next turn. since we see you already have nationalism we don't need to give you that
Swiss_Pauli no mention of OBs in their proposal, either
sooooo we don't need OBs I don't think
Ruff_Hi do we have an ETA for gunpowder?
T-hawk we need OBs to turn on our trade routes with Banana/Rabbits
Swiss_Pauli some foreign trade routes would be nice!
Ruff_Hi if we sign peace, we have 10 turns to get it
sooooo regoarrarr, i don't think we even mention the techs until after the peace is signed
sooooo T-Hawk, we had trade routes just before the war but after Imperio closed borders
Ruff_Hi yes - in-game peace first and then we squabble over terms
dsplaisted I think Imperio is not asking us to conquer any cities except Jerusalem
sooooo so that would imply that we don't need them
T-hawk I'm sure Imperio won't give Gunpowder now. How about we offer to trade Jerusalem for Gunpowder?
dsplaisted That's effectively what the deal is
Sullla indeed, we must get peace first and then squabble over the details, we can probably all agree on that
sooooo If imperio do not give gunpowder now, then that is reason to not give them jerusalem. we just don't tell them that
regoarrarr can we capture the cities we want and then have our army back to defend cape town in 10 turns, in a worst case scenario?
Sullla well put
Swiss_Pauli yeah, let's go with the gunpowder for Jerusalem trade once peace is signed
Swiss_Pauli though there is the chance that Imperio will try to change the terms
sooooo i think we (a) sign peace then (b) ask for gunpowder, since it was in the deal. if they refuse, then we accept meekly. But then we capture and keep Constantinople and Jerusalem.
Sullla yep, something like that works
Swiss_Pauli also, we should settle red and blue dots before we take Jerusalem
sooooo fo shizzle.
mh Isn#t the peace del with Imperio void, now that they already have Nationalism?
Swiss_Pauli blue dot might need to move 1NE for culture war reasons
sooooo one can only hope that it is not void.
Swiss_Pauli they'll probably void that clause
Swiss_Pauli if they want templars cities, they need peace with us
sooooo but we don't mention anything about nationalism until after the in-game peace is signed
Swiss_Pauli they're not going to sign peace until next turn anyway
sooooo true.
Swiss_Pauli also some kind of combat settler to sneak in that fishing village when Jeru is in revolt!
Swiss_Pauli i think we're done here for now, no?
Ruff_Hi yes - I for one am heading out to lunch ... back for afternoon work and then waiting for the Taj to finish
Ruff_Hi I will color code and post log in Imp thread

[T-hawk]

So the rough consensus was this: We accept the peace terms, knowing that they already have Nationalism. If they do supply Gunpowder anyway, we hold up our end of the deal and give them Jerusalem. If they balk at Gunpowder, we balk at Jerusalem and propose Gunpowder for Jerusalem as a separate trade.

[Swiss Pauli]

@ds - can you draft a reply in Spanish accepting 'all the terms laid out above in your definitive proposal', so we can reduce their 'lost-in-translation' wriggle room?

[sooooo]

OK, so the email I would like to send is:

Dear Imperio,

We agree to your terms. It is tough, but we value peace with you over the templar cities.

We have proposed peace in-game. Please accept the deal in-game either this turn or before our 16 hours are complete next turn. It is in your interests to do this quickly so we can move in on Jerusalem quickly.

Realms Beyond

A spanish translation anyone?

[sunrise089]

So the problems are:

1) Imperio will have as many cities as us, and equal quality land, leaving us with no real advantages.

2) RB continues to burn our army on Templars, Imperio gets a city for free.

3) We may or may not actually get gunpowder.

4) Our UU and rushed Globe, and the whole Nationalism strategy becomes completely irrelevant, right?

Right?

[sooooo]

No, not right. Our nationalism strategy is still relevant and we are still at War with Imperio. They just don't know it and by the time they do, they don't have any more cities than they had before but we have a much bigger army from drafting and 2-3 more cities.

[sooooo]

But probably we aren't going to get gunpowder. We will have to see how banana are going to compensate us for that.

[mostly-harmless]

Yeah. I am still stunned by that whole last hour.
Just looking at the tech we have to research ourselves now to draw even with Imperio.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Donovan "accidental" trade our map as well.

As for the suspicion of a background deal between Imperio and PAL. Just a look at the timings and how close those trades happened after each other.
PAL says to trade IMperio Nationalism for Gunpowder (a deal in Imperios favor) if Imperio can ensure Banana, does not get Gunpwoder to RB.

Imperio writes letters to Banana and RB, stressing the point not to disclose the content to the 3rd party. Banana gets Gunpowder cheap (for Banking and presumably our map).

Imperio rings up PAL, saying deal done, no Gunpowder for RB and especially no Gunpowder trade from Banana to Rabbit possible down the line. PAL hands over Nationalism.

So we have been screwed over by Templars, Banana, Imperio. PAL is fighting a cold war against us.
Are we really going to stick to agreements in the future? Handing over Jerusalem for Gunpowder?

At least, if Imperio hands over Gunpowder, raze and re-settle Jerusalem for them, to get rid of the two religions. IMperio does get Great prophets and just have to run free religion to get massive Culture from Jerusalem.

Have I mentioned, that I am really angry?

mh

[mostly-harmless]

But probably we aren't going to get gunpowder. We will have to see how banana are going to compensate us for that.

Why should Banana compensate us? As far as I know the beaker balance is even, right? Remember, how he did not want to front us the tech?

mh

[dsplaisted]

Here's the Spanish translation:

Saludos Imperio,

Nosotros aceptamos su propuesta. Es difÃcil, pero para nosotros es mas importante la paz con vosotros que las ciudades de los Templars.

Hemos propuesto la paz dentro del juego. Por favar, acéptalo este turno o antes de que se cumplen nuestras 16 horas del próximo turno. Es ventajoso para vosotros hacer esto pronto, para que nosotros podemos atacar a Jerusalem rápidamente.

Realms Beyond

[sooooo]

Imperio I think are very unlikely to hand over gunpowder, but there is no downside to asking once our peace deal is complete.

Being angry is natural but kinda pointless. It's more important to focus on how we can get the most out of our current situation.

For the record, I don't think banana have gone over to PAL's side and I don't think they handed Imperio their map. I have chatted to Donovan quite a lot in the game and I believe his explanation.

[sooooo]

Why should Banana compensate us? As far as I know the beaker balance is even, right? Remember, how he did not want to front us the tech?

mh

Well because we had a trade agreement. We planned for getting the tech that way. If the agreement was broken by mistake then we should be compensated. They just got about 800 free beakers (from not having to research gunpowder) and we just lost about 1700 beakers.

[darrelljs]

Have I mentioned, that I am really angry?

I'd cuss, but Apolyton censors . It is obvious they are negotiating in bad faith.

I vote we send the acceptance letter, agree to give them Jerusalem if they *immediately* give us Gunpowder. We then "accidently" raze the city. Then we kill them and pee on their ashes as soon as we are done with the Templars.

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

Banana already had beakers invested into Gunpowder. The upcoming trade of Gunpowder for Astronomy was prominent in all communications. Then he gets a letter from Imperio, does not talk to us and gets "trigger happy"? Come on.
The whole tech trading (Imperio, PAL, Banana) took place in less than 8 minutes!

I think we have been screwed over by the rest of the teams pretty badly.

I agree on trying to get peace with Imperio and then get Templars cities. But keep in mind, that we cannot trust them to leave Cape Town alone.
I also have no qualms in ripping that agreement apart the moment we feel we have an edge over them.

mh