Turnplayed Thread #4

[Sullla]

PS We ticked over to the new turn and are now on the clock.

[sooooo]

Logged in, did not notice any movements from Imperio. No events and nothing interesting in the log. No techs from other teams. I turned research up to 100%.

Are we going to whip Pink Dot again this turn? We could do - I don't really have a preference.

Need to whip Green Acres and Mellow Yellow this turn.

Not many worker decisions to make. One of the bluebell workers should move south on the road, and the other should head into a silks forest. Not sure what to do with engergetic erik. I still quite like building a road on the tile 1S of his current position. I don't see templars using that road. It gives us the option of putting a stack next to Jericho at a moment's notice if we want to. Not that it's a good idea right now, but it would be nice to have the option. Also I think we should cancel the chopping worker at SF at the end of the turn so that we get a triple whip at SF and not a double whip.

[sunrise089]

Guys, can I once again request players who long in before me to please not change any signs I have placed on cities unless they're actually in error?

Logged in, did not notice any movements from Imperio. No events and nothing interesting in the log. No techs from other teams. I turned research up to 100%.

Are we going to whip Pink Dot again this turn? We could do - I don't really have a preference.

Need to whip Green Acres and Mellow Yellow this turn.

Not many worker decisions to make. One of the bluebell workers should move south on the road, and the other should head into a silks forest. Not sure what to do with engergetic erik. I still quite like building a road on the tile 1S of his current position. I don't see templars using that road. It gives us the option of putting a stack next to Jericho at a moment's notice if we want to. Not that it's a good idea right now, but it would be nice to have the option. Also I think we should cancel the chopping worker at SF at the end of the turn so that we get a triple whip at SF and not a double whip.

I'd love to whip Pink Dot, but I'll wait for any more discussion.

I'll make you a deal Soooo - I'll road the Templar border tile, but if we loose the forest adjacent to Jericho I'm going to pillage the road tiles. Imperio and Templars are crazy to let us have the road network in the middle, so if they finally wise up and try to contest it I want to connection severed.

[sunrise089]

Turn 140

City report:
*Airstrip 1 - Theater complete. Missionary for Saxon due in 4. Probably a stable next.
*Pink Dot - Longbow for the Pink Dot/Templar border hill due in 5. We may whip Pink this turn. I'll probably build another cat next.
*China Beach - Theater complete. Settler due in 7, but will be triple-whipped next turn.
*Cape Town - Theater complete. Mace due in 1. Cat next.
*Something Fishy - Theater complete. Settler due in 7, but will be triple-whipped next turn.
*Green Acres - Barracks due in 1 and city whipped. Globe Theater next.
*Mellow Yellow - Theater due in 1 and city whipped. Barracks next.
*Saxon the Beach - Moai due in 8 turns.
*Bluebell Woods - Forge due in 23.
*Red Herring - Granary due in 2 courtesy of a chop.

Worker report:
*One of the Bluebell workers headed south along the road, the other moved onto the forest silk tile.
*Our road network through the center desert is complete.
*Our two Pink Dot military engineers roaded the grassland forest covered by the maces. Next turn they will road the plains tile 1NE 1E of Pink Dot.
*Energetic Erik moved to road the Jericho border forest based on my deal with Soooo.

Domestic Military Composition Report:
*Cape Town garrison - 8 strength-eight units, 2 horse archers, 2 pikes, 5 cats, 1 axe, 4 archers.
*Pink Dot garrison - 5 maces, 2 pikes, 1 horse archer, 2 cats, 2 archers.
-->Only 2 archers in city.
-->2 pikes covering the grassland forest SE of the city.
-->5 maces, 1 HA, and 2 cats hidden from Templars on the roaded hill NW of Pink.
*Central garrison (units in open) - 1 elephant, 1 mace, 1 pike, 4 horse archers, 2 chariots.

Enemy Military Composition Report:
*Cape Town opposing force - 6 longbows, 1 pike, 1 horse archer. Other units in fog estimated at 7+ strength-8 units and 7+ cats plus any new C&D unit discoveries.
*Pink Dot opposing force - 1 mace, 2 crossbows, 1 horse archer, 1 sword, 4 cats, 3 chariots, 1 spear.
*Central opposing force - 1 crossbow, 1 horse archer, 1 axeman.

Military Action Report:
*Martha the mace is now promoted to woodsman 1 and is standing in the forest next to Jericho. Hannah the Pike may withdraw one tile onto the road network once Energetic Eric finishes the road on turn 142.
*Our 2-movers in the middle are still hanging out on the desert tile between the peaks.
*Nelly the Elephant is guarding Winston one more turn, and will return to Cape Town garrison duty next turn.
*Templars continue to hold that crossbow-ha-axe group on the grassland hill in the middle of the map. Considering how much culture their capital produces if I were them I'd road that tile and then try to hook up to our desert road network and try to position horse archers there.

Spy Report:
*The first spy is built and will be in Imperio land by turn 144. It is heading towards the road network between Mutal and Chichen Itza.

Questions and notes:
*The wounded PAL caravel north of Red Herring hasn't moved yet.
*As I mentioned last turn, no units produced this turn. We will make up for it though next turn with a mace and a longbow, and the end of our elephant's worker escort duty.
*First big spike in the Templar power charts since about 300AD is visible. It looks like they declared with their army and build very few units since. They may be building more again, or the spike may just be the mace promo plus the crossbow in Jericho.
*Although the major strategic mistake of the war was Imperio waiting 15 turns too long to attack, the major tactical mistake was Templars showing their southern stack early before it was reinforced, and then refusing to use it. If they really let our longbow take the grassland hill it's to cap a sad series of Templar moves. They could have presented a real problem for us had they not shown the stack until it had the mace, 2 extra cats, and 2 crossbows on it.

[regoarrarr]

sunrise - one thought (which may or may not have occured to you already) - if Imperio and Templars don't have that many (or any) MP veterans, you should throw out all your assumptions to how YOU (or someone with lots of MP experience) would play.

Like when I look at things, as someone with zero MP experience (and not that great of a civver anyways), your comments like "Imperio and Templars are crazy to let us have the road network in the middle" etc don't jump out to me as glaringly obvious.

Now don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that you're right, but if we play like they are going to make optimal MP moves, we may miss opportunities.

Does that make sense?

[sunrise089]

@regorrarr - It does make sense, and this is yet another thing I should be more clear about. (oh, for the written clarity of a Sullla report...).

Generally when I note something the other teams SHOULD do I do so mainly to let the team know one possible course of action. It should not be assumed though that I view such actions as likely, nor that I have adapted my play to counter them. For example, I didn't insist on whipping a longbow out of Pink Dot last turn because while Templar shouldn't leave the Pink Dot grassland hill empty, they don't seem to know how to use their stack. Likewise I'm not trying to rush an elephant to the desert tiles in preparation for Templars roading the hill their crossbow-ha-axe stack is on.

Sometimes though, even if I think a play is unlikely I WILL still defend against it. The current example would be my reluctance to road the Templar border forest NW of Jericho. If Templars clear our mace and pike out of the forest (they'll need 3 crossbows and a mace to do it probably, or 3 crossbows and a cat) and road the forest in their land, they can park horse archers in Jericho and dash out on that road to either threaten our core cities or cut the road from Cape Town. In certain circumstances that's such a powerful play that I'm more than willing to loose out on one roaded tile ourselves in order to deny it to Templars.

Anyways, I'll try and do a better job articulating what risks I think are likely enough to require action on our part.

EDIT: The flip side of this though is that certain obvious MP moves with obvious defenses are even stronger against teams of SP guys. For example my proposed 2-mover attack splitting Jericho and Constantinople. I'd always make sure to keep units positioned to cover both cities if such an attack were possible, but Templars probably wouldn't think to do so.

[ruff_hi]

yes - totally. Another example of Team RB playing too well.

[MyOtherCar]

yes - totally. Another example of Team RB playing too well.

Luckily I'm able to help with that

[sooooo]

We should probably stop the "RB playing too well" talk since we made plenty of mistakes so far. We played well compared to templars and probably imperio, but that's not saying too much . For example when it was my turnset I left 2 tiles fogged because there was a barbarian in the area. Those 2 tiles, the only 2 tiles in our vicinity that we left fogged, turned out to have copper and horses on them.

Logged into the game and since no objections to whipping longbow I did it and hit end turn.

Next turn's decisions as I see them:

Workers: Serious Steve. I think I'd have him go to the tile 1SE of saxon and road it. Then next turn he finishes the road and the settler from CB can use it on the same turn to reach the Frozen Clams site quicker. That tile needs roading anyway and the sooner the city reaches size 6 the sooner it is draftable. O'Brien probably head onto the hill to chop. Mustapha I think should move into the forest 1E of the burgundy sign, ready to start a road next turn. Could seem strange, but I think a road is worth the worker turns because it allows the two other workers in the Burgundy/Green Acres area to coordinate better. I think the other workers have plans already from sunrise.

Builds: Cape Town can build whatever sunrise thinks we need. Pink Dot maybe a catapult? At red herring we don't have enough workers to keep up with growth so we should build a lighthouse next IMO so it can work coast as it grows.

[sunrise089]

Good points Soooo.

Pink will indeed make another catapult, and Cape Town will build another cat. I'd like some more horse archers too (we're actually getting pretty good on the high-strength unit count), but guilds in looming. Lighthouse seems to make sense at Red, but will the city have time to build a lighthouse and then a barracks before it goes on draft duty, or do we not plan to draft from it?

I'll trust all of Soooo's worker decisions, but we should keep in mind that once Nationalism comes in our top priority becomes making sure we have direct roads from our cities to the front. China Beach and Something Fishy for example could have much more direct routes than they have now. Of course we'll also have four more workers to use considering the desert road and the Pink Dot roads should both finish within 2 turns, but just be advised I'll be asking for the worker turns come Nationalism.

[sunrise089]

16:30 update during turn 140 - no changes. Templars either aren't moving anything we can see or are waiting until the very last moment.

Incidentally, I simmed a battle with the Imperio army versus our Cape Town defenders as they currently stand. I assumed a worse-case scenario where Imperio brings all of their Chichen defenders except a single longbow and we don't have access to any of our 2-move units stationed in the central desert. The results after a single round:

*RB losses - 1 elephant, 1 mace, 5 cats
*Imperio losses - 3 elephants, 2 maces, 1 horse archer, 5 longbows, 2 cats

Other tests of less likely scenarios:

*RB army with 2-movers versus Imperio army = 10 RB losses, 21 Imperio losses (entire army)

*RB army with 2-movers versus Imperio army without longbows = 9 RB losses, 16 Imperio losses (entire army)

*RB army without 2-movers versus Imperio army with no promotions = 7 RB losses, 11 Imperio losses

Obviously there are some other permutations, but clearly our military buildup is leaving us well prepared in the north. It looks like against the Imperio army on flat land we can expect a 2:1 kill ratio during the first turn of battle. Since few if any Imperio units would be in position to counterattack we could then expect to kill any Imperio units that didn't escape during the second turn.

[mostly-harmless]

Hmm, if the spy confirms their main army marched south, could we try for a Chichen Itza snatch, or are those longbows too much?

mh

[sooooo]

Hmm, if the spy confirms their main army marched south, could we try for a Chichen Itza snatch, or are those longbows too much?

mh

It can't be worth it. Even if their forces are more than 6 tiles away, we could raze their city but our entire army would get demolished the following turn when their army returns. Then Cape Town is defenceless.

[sunrise089]

With 2-city elimination on I'd make the play for Chichen, but probably not with the demogame settings M_H.

Assuming Imperio commits their army to Pink Dot and doesn't return home, we can take Chichen, but we'd loose all of our cats and many of our elephants/maces to do it. My sense in this game is that it's only worthwhile to take out cities if you can do so on the cheap, or if after you've taken the city your army is still largely intact.

[mostly-harmless]

Little update:
PAL adopted Christianity as their state religion. This is clearly a move to veto any AP diplo victory from Tem&Imp. After all PAL has only Memphis (size 11) with Christianity in it. Adopting it as a state religion promoted them from Voting Member (11 votes) to Full Member (22 votes).

mh