Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Cloak & Dagger

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I read this info every turn M_H. But while it's nice I don't consider it useful. I tend to look at the total pop numbers and the number of hammers per city. Honestly though I don't know how to interpret the hammer numbers well enough to keep track of how many units are being produced. In a perfect world I could do without any info other than a list of new units, if that list was kept up to date.

    For example, my general sense of the Imperio army is that they have 8 strength-8 units, 7 cats, a horse archer, 6 longbows, and a pike. Those are the units I've seen. But I imagine they've in fact build more than that, I just don't know for sure.

    @Swiss - I only know War Weariness in the context of Always War games. In those games it's essentially a non-factor, even without any special buildings or civics. In a 120 turn ancient game where you're building units all game you'll see very little or no weariness. In a Ren game where you're building a lot more units and literally may control over 100 during the course of a 90 turn game it you'll notice weariness if you loose a big stack in enemy lands, but we generally run the culture slider and keep units in cities to compensate.

    I can see it theoretically being a problem in this game, consider the longer length and lack of always war. BUT our stacks are so much smaller I doubt we'll loose enough units to make it a game-changing problem.

    Comment


    • re WW:
      I made a very rough estimate earlier (can't find it now), that we need to inflict around 100WW points to create one unhappy face.

      @sunrise:
      A shame Sullla gave up on the soldier point tracking. As the current stats take more than 1hour to analyse per turn, I don't want to burden me with the solider point analysis as well.
      I have the same feeling about the analysis, "nice to know, but not crucial". That's why I am asking whether to keep it up.

      @ sooooo:
      PAl will have a decent headstart for the Taj and they are industrial (right?), so I don't think we will have a chance. They have their wonders lined up just perfectly (MoM, Taj, possible another GPerson for, what 24turns GA?)

      mh

      Comment


      • Could you trade the current analysis for the soldier count analysis M_H?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mostly-harmless View Post
          @sunrise:
          A shame Sullla gave up on the soldier point tracking. As the current stats take more than 1hour to analyse per turn, I don't want to burden me with the solider point analysis as well.
          I have the same feeling about the analysis, "nice to know, but not crucial". That's why I am asking whether to keep it up.

          That's your answer right there. It was fun and useful to keep track of the Soldier count when everyone was building one unit every 3 or 4 turns. Once we reached the point where there were 2-3 units getting built per civ per turn, the numbers simply became too hard to follow, and it was taking hours every turn to do the math. I just didn't have the time or the stomach to keep going. Sorry. If anyone wants to volunteer, have at it.

          I definitely enjoy the C&D numbers, and would love to see them continue. But if there's no time for them, I would definitely understand. At a minimum, I think we should continue to track the pop count, and gold totals for each civ, plus looking at key foreign cities to track wonders. Beyond that, it might not be necessary to do every city every turn. I know firsthand how much effort that requires.

          Comment


          • Yes, these posts are very useful for quickly seeing what is going on in the game. (Although the exact breakdown of what each city has is more in the "nice to see" category, and soldier count analysis would be more useful.)
            Last edited by Zeviz; May 14, 2009, 21:12.

            Comment


            • Cane someone train me how to do soldier analysis? And also, if we skip turns doing soldier analysis is it useless?

              Comment


              • Hi,

                Originally posted by mostly-harmless View Post
                Question:
                As these stats take ages to analyse, is there actually anyone reading it?
                What is useful?
                What could I leave away?
                I read the census every turn, and take a look at the production every couple of turns. As someone not logging into the game I enjoy the production section a lot - but it's more a nice to have than a crucial thing, so if it's too much work to do it, don't do it.

                -Kylearan

                Comment


                • sunrise, in order to do the Soldier count analysis you need to keep a running tally of each civ's Soldier point count on each turn. Then, by working backwards from the graphs - with help from the foreign builds - you estimate what each civ is building on each turn. Unfortunately, this gets complicated very quickly...

                  - First of all, the Soldier count power rating bar graph only appears the turn AFTER the current one. Thus, you always have to keep in mind that the bar graphs are one turn out of date. However, the Demographics on the F9 screen are updated in real-time, and are thus CURRENT for the present turn. This causes all manner of unnecessary confusion.

                  - Next, the Soldier count value on the bar graphs gets locked in at the beginning of each turn. What does this mean? Let's say that RB's Soldier count rating is 100k, and then we get traded Machinery (a tech with 8k point value) in mid-turn. The Soldier count on the F9 screen will update in real time, however the bar graph Power rating will NOT include the Machinery trade until the next turn, and since the bar graphs are always a turn behind anyway, the value of the tech trade actually won't show up until TWO turns behind the one in which it takes place. Pop changes mid-turn from whipping and founding cities work the exact same way, FYI. As you can imagine, this causes some major headaches for keeping track of this stuff.

                  - You also have to factor in all of the things that affect the Soldier count rating: population (every two pop points = 1k Soldier points, and every whipping mid-turn causes havoc with the numbers), technology (difficulties of tech trades listed above), buildings (some give points and some don't), and finally units. Determining where the points get assigned is half science, half crazy guessing game with incomplete information. Was that 4k increase from Imperio caused by them building a chariot, building a holkan, trading for Metal Casting, or building a barracks and gaining one population point? And the further you get into the game, the more potential options are available.

                  - Finally, this all presumes that you know the value for each team's Soldier rating. Well, we could work that out pretty well early in the game, when the bar graphs ran from 0-50k, but now they run from 0-500k. How do you distinguish between a value of 312k and 313k on those tiny bar graphs, when the two different numbers will result in infering completely different builds? By the end, I was guessing/estimating not only the foreign military builds, but having to estimate the foreign Soldier counts themselves! Even using image captures and zooming way in on the bar graphs only helped so much. This double layer of estimation was where I pretty much threw up my hands, not to mention having to track so many different numbers at the same time. It just got too complicated, and the precision was being lost in guesswork.

                  But, uhh, if that doesn't deter you, here's the formula for doing Soldier count. Good luck.

                  * * * * * * * * * * *

                  Factor 1- Population points. For every two population points from all your cities you get 1000 soldiers. So;
                  1pop = 0 soldiers
                  2pop= 1000
                  3pop= 1000
                  4pop= 2000
                  5pop= 2000
                  6pop= 3000 and so on.

                  Factor 2- Technologies. Discovering some technologies (mostly military but not exclusively) gives you extra soldiers. I have to say some of them struck me as a little strange, like Military tradition gives you zero but hunting gives you 2000, but I’m not here to argue about that. Here is the list of techs that give you soldiers. If they are not listed then they give zero soldiers.

                  (For BTS 3.02)
                  2000 soldiers – Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry
                  4000 soldiers- Wheel, Alphabet, Astronomy, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction, Steel, Radio, Satellites
                  5000 soldiers- Composites, Stealth
                  6000 soldiers- Mathematics, Chemistry, Combustion, Archery
                  8000 soldiers- Guilds, Fission, Flight, Bronze Working, Machinery, Assembly Line
                  10000 soldiers- Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Artillery, Industrialism, Rocketry, Advanced Flight, Laser
                  12000 soldiers- Gunpowder, Rifling, Military Science

                  Factor 3- City Improvement/Wonders. Like discovering some technologies, build certain improvements and wonders will increase the amount of soldiers you have on the demo screen. In this case you amount added for each improvement. For example you get 2000 soldiers for each wall you build, so if you have 5 walls, you have an extra 10000 soldiers. With wonders that give you soldiers, you can only build one so you only get that bonus once. Here is the list of what you get for each improvement. Improvements that don’t give soldiers are not listed.

                  (For BTS 3.02)
                  1000 soldiers- Trading Post, Shale Plant, Totem Pole
                  2000 soldiers- Walls, Dry Dock, Forge, Factory, Stable, Mint, Assembly Plant, Industrial Park, Levee, Dike
                  3000 soldiers- Dun, Barracks, Ikhanda, Citadel
                  4000 soldiers- Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works, Ger, Statue of Zeus
                  6000 soldiers- Military Acadamy
                  8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point
                  10000 soldiers- Great Wall, Cristor Redentor, Moai Statues

                  Factor 4- Units. Finally each unit type has a different amount of soldiers attached to it, so a warrior contributes 1000 soldiers, while a Swordsman is 3000 soldiers. Interestingly enough a units experience points has no bearing on the amount of soldiers it equates to. Units such as scouts, workers missionaries and spies contribute zero soldiers to the demo screen. Here is the full list of what you get for each unit;

                  (For BTS 3.17)
                  2000 - Warrior, Quecha, Galley
                  3000 - Archer, Trireme, Caravel
                  4000 - Spearman, Holkar, Chariot, War Chariot, Galleon, Airship,
                  5000 - Catapult
                  6000 - Axeman, Swordsman, Horse Archer, Pikeman, Landsknecht, Longbow, Privateer, Guided Missile
                  7000 - Crossbow, Cho-Ko-Nu
                  8000 - Trebuchet, War Elephant, Frigate
                  9000 - Maceman, Musketman, Oromo Warrior
                  10000 - Knight, Ship of the Line
                  12000 - Cannon, Cuirassier, Grenadier, Ironclad, Fighter
                  14000 - Rifleman, Machine Gun, Missile Cruiser, Anti-Tank
                  15000 - Cavalry
                  16000 - Transport, Carrier, Bomber
                  18000 - SAM Infantry, Artillery
                  20000 - Infantry, Stealth Bomber
                  22000 - Mobile SAM
                  24000 - Jet Fighter
                  26000 - Gunship, Mobile Artillery
                  28000 - Marine, Submarine
                  30000 - Tank, Paratrooper, Destroyer, Attack Submarine, Stealth Destroyer, Tactical Nuke
                  32000 - Mechanized Infantry
                  40000 - Modern Armor, Battleship, ICBM

                  Comment


                  • Imperios soldier points can be read directly from the demo screen, as they are second after us and therefore best rival.
                    You can subtract the soldier points for known pop (and we know the exact pop for each civ), for known techs, for known buildings.
                    What you are left with is the amount of soldier points accounted for by units. Subtract units we know about (Chichen Itza defenders, main stack composition). The rest is either city defenders (Banana might help there with info about city defenders Calakmul, Mayapan & Uxmal) or main stack reinforcements.

                    Edit: You can do the same for Templars, estimating their solider count from the graphs. I think you will find that there is no hidden Templar stack around.

                    mh

                    Comment


                    • PAL only have 90 gold and are running 0% science, so they will not get nationalism next turn as banana suggest.

                      Comment


                      • T144:

                        PAL: 3x pop & medieval tech traded from Banana (Guilds)
                        Rabbit: pop & land & 2 x classical tech traded for from Rabbits (HBR & Aesth)
                        Banana: 3x pop & medieval tech learned (Guilds) & 2x medieval tech traded from PAL (Music & Paper)
                        Imperio: 2x pop
                        Templars: land
                        RB: 3x city

                        Population census:
                        PAL 86 (12,12,11,10,9,9,8,6,4,3,2)
                        RB 58 (11,7,6,6,6,5,5,5,3,2,1,1)
                        Ban 49 (14,12,9,8,3,2,1)
                        Imp 46 (10,8,8,8,6,6)
                        Tem 32 (9,9,6,4,4)
                        Rab 15 (7,4,2,1,1)

                        Treasury report:
                        Templars: 114gold (+30gpt) -25gpt to Imperio
                        Imperio: 236gold (-14gpt) +25gpt from Temps
                        PAL: 90gold (-120gpt)
                        Rab: 48gold (0gpt) -100g to RB
                        Banana: 143gold (-100gpt)


                        Foreign production.

                        Templars
                        Jerusalem = 46h (+46)
                        Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Lighthouse, Terrace
                        Damascus = 0h (-50) ???
                        Infrastructure: Terrace, Barracks, Forge, Apo Palace
                        Jericho = 25h (+14)
                        Infrastructure: Walls, Forge
                        Acre = 14h (+4)
                        Infrastructure: Monument

                        Jericho seems to get a double modifier. Castle?

                        Imperio
                        Mutal = 55h (+25)
                        Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Monument, Stonehenge, Oracle, Forge
                        Lakamha = 53h (+22)
                        Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Islamic shrine, Granary
                        Chichen Itza = 18h (+4)
                        Infrastructure: Granary, Monument, Lighthouse, Barracks
                        Uxmal = 64h (+9)
                        Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, State of Zeus, Granary
                        Mayapan = 35h (+9)
                        Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks, Granary
                        Calakmul = 53h (+20)
                        Infrastructure: Monument, Library, Barracks

                        Would not be surprised to see all their cities on Knights.

                        PAL
                        The Warning = 103h (+15)
                        Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Lighthouse, Library, Forge, Confucian Temple, Obelisk, Harbor, Academy, Confucian Monastery, Taoist Monastery
                        Heliopolis = 22h (+11)
                        Infrastructure: Granary, Barracks, Forge, Library
                        Alexandria = 32h (+12)
                        Infrastructure: Granary, Forge, Barracks
                        Giza = 34h (+3)
                        Infrastructure: Granary, Lighthouse, Forge, Library
                        Byblos = 22h (+6)
                        Infrastructure: Obelisk, Granary, Forge, Barracks


                        Rabbits
                        Caerbannog = 29h (+16)
                        Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Library, Great Wall
                        Digger's Burrow = 9h (+9)
                        Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Granary, Walls
                        Phrygian = 11h (+1)
                        Infrastructure: none


                        Banana
                        Banapolis= 0h ??? Overflow into a 1turn build.
                        Infrastructure: Palace, Granary, Library, Lighthouse, Forge, The Pyramids, Moai Statues, Harbor
                        Banana Pudding = 82h (+38)
                        Infrastructure: Walls, Forge, Monument, Granary, Library, Harbor, Lighthouse, Academy
                        Banana Split = 98h (+11)
                        Infrastructure: Walls, Castle, Lighthouse, Granary, Monument
                        Doal = 8h (+4)
                        Infrastructure: none


                        mh

                        Comment


                        • Errr ... two score increases for Imperio this turn?

                          Comment


                          • Medieval tech gifted and new city it seems.

                            Comment


                            • Requested C&D pics for T145 are in our team inbox.

                              Comment


                              • Thanks.

                                T145 & T146 updates will have to wait for the weekend.

                                mh

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X