Team Info and Contacts - Templars

[Swiss Pauli]

Proposal:

Herc,

To rescue the deal that recently collapsed, we would propose the following:

- Philo for Drama & Theology. The beaker count is equal.

Let's us know whether you are interested.

Cheers,

Team RB

We should wait until mh is back online in case Herc replies to his PM. No reply via email so far.

[sooooo]

I'm still hoping we can trade for philosophy from PAL, in which case we won't have it to give to Templars.

[mostly-harmless]

Reply to my PM to Herc:

Must have been my ISP then. Luckily my last two minor moves may have been completed.

Re response. No I have just been waiting for input from othere Templars.

In essence Templars had agreed to the exchange with Imperio before the RB-Banana three way offer, which is still in place. Templars Drama, Banana - Calendar, it is just construction which will need to changed to another suitable tech.

"it is just construction which need to be changed..."
yes, right, that's what we were so pissed about! Doh!
mh

[Zeviz]

I don't understand why we are offering Philosophy that we don't plan on researching when we are about to get Engineering. Considering how hard it is to get Templars to agree to anything already, sending this offer and then saying "never mind, we bought philosophy elsewhere" would wreck our diplomacy with them even further.

If you offered them Engineering instead, this email would be good.

[sunrise089]

Templars have a lot of nerve..."oh, we just unilaterally changed the terms of the deal, because we had a deal in place BEFORE we agreed to the one we just backed out of."

I do agree though that we should carefully weight offering Philo.

[sooooo]

Templars are ridiculous. I'd like to send them this. It starts off with a telling off and hopefully ends on a positive note to give them one last chance to work together.

Hi Hercules.

Thankyou for your message. We don't have problem with you wanting to renegotiate the tech triangle. However, leaving two weeks to tell us this is not on, and you only replied to us after we pressed you about it. If you already had a deal for construction, then fine. All it would have taken was a quick "We have a deal lined up for contstruction, can you suggest another tech?". Instead you told Banana that you were in, refused to reply to our email and only two weeks later after us pming you you tell us that finally you were never interested in the first place. Look at it from our point of view: Can you see why we are slightly irked?

Are templars ignoring us on purpose or has interest in the demogame amongst your team diminished? RB are still interested in working with you, but there has to be a change in attitude. We honestly don't mind you turning down our suggestions, but we'd like to be told in good time. Take banana for example: They were slightly behind in techs but they responded to our emails very quickly and soon we built up a friendly relationship and we were able to make several mutually beneficial trades.

We are not so naive to realise that Templars may have their own grievances towards us. Among other issues, the border agreement was a fiasco and in hindsight RB should have tried harder and we apologise for that. We hope that we can now wipe the slate clean and go forward with a new, friendly relationship. We will promise to reply to your emails in good time and we hope you will do your best to reply too. There are many good opportunities for beneficial trades within our teams. For example, we would like theology and drama and are sure we can offer you something in return soon. Also we will have dyes to trade you soon to go with any theatres you build from drama. Finally we can possibly provide military assistance in the future.

Kind Regards,

Realms Beyond

[mostly-harmless]

I agree with large parts of soooos message, but feel we should not take partial blame of the BA. Templars stalled on that at least as much as we did (see Jericho). And we effectively have a BA in place, with RB agreeing to not settle south of Jerusalem (something we should really re-consider!).
That said, I think we should get rid of the sentence regarding the BA. Also keep in mind that they agreed to the tech triangle in full knowledge, that they could not fulfil it (the RB part). It's not that they changed their mind or got delayed, they just wanted to make sure they get calendar from Banana, so they can finally start hooking up their happy resource.

mh

[sooooo]

I don't blame ourselves for the BA - it was a stupid idea anyway. Like Sullla said, it's like Italy arriving reaching the americas in 1750 and asking for an equal share. But they obviously care about it a lot and I think it's the main reason that they don't talk to us anymore. I think in this case it's wise to apologise for something you didn't do, kind of like when you make up with your wife after an argument.

EDIT: If we don't put something like that in then we are basically just telling them off. Then some of their team will go "bu bu bu but they screwed us in the border agreement! they are to blame!". By telling them off, then admitting to mistakes hopefully they will agree to start afresh.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I'm not sure I like the message. I definitely share your desire for telling them off, but...what would we accomplish by that? Judging from their previous dealings with us, I fear relations will only get worse - and that is not what we want!

Instead, I'm for turning the other cheek and simply send the new proposal in a friendly tone. I'm fine with a small remark along the lines of "To avoid a misunderstanding like it happened with the Construction deal, I hope you will be able to reach consensus over our new proposal in about X days so that we all can better plan ahead", or something like that. But overall, let's sound like we're not upset - while I don't think we'll ever make much progress with them, we can't say for sure we won't need their goodwill at one time or another, regardless how much clenching of teeth will be involved.

We can still sneak-attack them at a later date, screaming "This city is razed for the BA foolishness! And THIS one is razed for the Construction deal you've spoofed up!" while invading their lands.

-Kylearan

[mostly-harmless]

By telling them off we hopefully open their eyes to see the realities in the game: They are small we are big.

If we are ever in a position to rely on their goodwill and we have budged and tiptoed around them all the time in the past, what makes you think they will be generous towards us?

Templars should be offering Drama for free to try to pacify us. Sending soooo's message should tell them that there is actually someone in dire need of pacification!

But seeing how the dreaded "Templar-love" spreads out again, I fear we will end up offering them Engineering and free Dyes for Drama & Theology.

mh

[Kylearan]

Hi,

By telling them off we hopefully open their eyes to see the realities in the game: They are small we are big.

I agree, but we are not big enough (yet) to allow to drop diplomacy altogether and just take on both Imperio and Templars at the same time, if they decide to join forces against us. We may be able to deal with them both at the same time, but the resources needed against both will cost us the game later, when we have to deal with a runaway-PAL.

Think US of A under Bush jr.

If we are ever in a position to rely on their goodwill and we have budged and tiptoed around them all the time in the past, what makes you think they will be generous towards us?

In situations like when we will attack Imperio, their (Templar's) attitude towards us could make the difference between them immediately rushing to help Imperio, and thinking and discussing what to do for several turns before doing so, at which point it might be too late for Imperio (and them).

-Kylearan

[Sullla]

But seeing how the dreaded "Templar-love" spreads out again, I fear we will end up offering them Engineering and free Dyes for Drama & Theology.

I am in favor of this, and I don't love Templars either. It's pretty simple. The longer the game goes on, the more things favor our team. Remember in the early game, when Templars had quechuas and we had no strategic resources whatsoever? The ball was entirely in their court then. We bluffed, talked them down, and we kept getting stronger while they got weaker. Their economy is still pitiful; they've survived by making advantageous tech trades, but that will only work for so much longer. They have no libraries. They have room for what, maybe one more city in the southeast? Stragetically speaking, this team is in a closed box filling up with rising water.

But if Templars were to attack us right now along with Imperio, they could seriously damage us!!! This is the one scenario we have to prevent. If that means buddying up with Templars for now, darn straight I'm in favor of the "Templar love". As Kylearan said, we can pay them back with interest later as our huge army of draft conscripts overruns their longbows. And Engineering for Drama and Theology is a good deal for us. We want both techs for Operation Bloodbath, and we're not planning on attacking with horse archers/knights, so it's OK to send Templars Engineering.

I would favor us modifying sooooo's message to be less demanding and more "let's be friends!" in nature. Definitely don't mention the border agreement issue at all, as it seems to be a sore point. In essence, keep offering Templars short-term advantage, while their long-term position continues to deteriorate.

[Swiss Pauli]

I'm not sure about trading them Engineering, which will give them 3 times the movement of our army in time of war (instead of double). Would this be really bad, or just a minor annoyance

What are we doing about Twin Peaks/Bad Ass? We need to play it right diplomatically here: if we make kissy-kissy then slap them in the face with our Bad Ass* - can someone photoshop this delightful image - then they'll not only be upset, but they might start to see us for the hypocrites that we are

I'd prefer us to take a 'firm but fair' attitude.

[sooooo]

The reason I want to tell them off is to make it clear that their behaviour is not acceptable. I don't want to keep suggesting deals and not get any replies. I want them to buck their ideas up and reply sooner. My son threw my phone down the stairs this morning and I didn't ignore him; I told him off sternly. Yet I don't want to cut off dilpomatic relationships with him - I want him to learn not to throw telephones down the stairs. I hope my son will be of value later on too, but telling him off was still the right thing to do.

@Sullla: Can you be more specific about which parts of my email you want to keep and which you want to discard? Do you mean discarding all but the second half of the last paragraph?

[mostly-harmless]

That made my day. Thanks sooooo.

mh