Team Info and Contacts - PAL

[mostly-harmless]

Fine.

[ruff_hi]

email sent to PAL

[sooooo]

An email from PAL:

Hi Realms,

It’s rather unfortunate you guys have decided not to form a long term alliance; the earlier such an alliance can be formed the more powerful it is.

Regarding tech trades, could we get an ETA on Iron Working and Sailing? Also we require something a little more useful then archery for writing, in the first round of trades. We have loads of jungle in our borders and we would like to establish trade routes, so either sailing or Iron Working would be required as soon as possible.

Lastly, we are toying with the idea of getting CoL after alphabet, what are RB’s medium term tech plans?

Thanks

whiplash

[sooooo]

Possibly they are assuming that they will get alphabet before we get ironworking, hence the strange second paragraph. We should explain to them that we will complete IW and sailing before they get alpha, should aim to make both of our proposed trades in the same turn, and that we have to do it in 2 gos because we cannot access alphabet directly without writing.

[Zeviz]

We can tell them that we'll be ready to trade all 3 technologies in 8 turns. The order doesn't matter to us as long as the entire trade happens in 2 consecutive turns. (Something for Writing, followed by the rest of techs for Alphabet.)

For long term alliance offer, let's directly say that we are hesitant to make a deal that would split our continent between 2 teams, while leaving them to fully dominate the other continent. (There is nothing wrong with our objection, so we might as well state it openly and see what they have to say.)

EDIT: Perhaps after laying out the objections above, we can offer them a bilateral alliance. I think they would make a good partner and their position on the other continent means that they don't pose an immediate threat.

[Sullla]

I can't say I'm a big fan of whiplash's diplomatic style. It seems to be "Do what we want you to do - why aren't you doing what we want yet!" A little tact goes a long way.

Mostly, I would echo sooooo and Zeviz. Mention that we will be done with our half of the deal in 7 more turns (it's already ticked over to T71), most likely before them. Explain that we cannot directly trade for Alphabet, so the deal must go through in two steps.

I also concur that we should point out a three-way alliance that leaves them the only standing power on the eastern continent is NOT a fair partnership by any means. We would like to have some form of cooperation, but that's not an equal exchange. Obviously this has to be worded in the polite diplo-speak that Ruff is so good at.

I would at least sound them out on a Monarchy (500) for Code of Laws (429) deal of some kind; as an Organized civ, we would really like to get our hands on that tech too. Throw in our 40 beaker credit that we owe them, and the deal is essentially even on both sides. Worth talking about, at least.

[Zeviz]

Originally posted by Sullla
...
I also concur that we should point out a three-way alliance that leaves them the only standing power on the eastern continent is NOT a fair partnership by any means. We would like to have some form of cooperation, but that's not an equal exchange. Obviously this has to be worded in the polite diplo-speak that Ruff is so good at.
...

I agree that we should be polite, but it seems to me that this team likes consiceness as much as Templars like wordiness. So brief, to-the-point messages might be as appropriate here as long paragraphs of diplo-speak are when talking to Templars.

[Sullla]

Good point, Zeviz. I think that "PAL" is pretty much whiplash playing this game by himself. From my long-ago experience with him, blunt and direct communication is probably the best approach.

Had this contact with someone from PAL (almost certainly whiplash) just a few minutes ago:

[ruff_hi]

we sent them that email 2 or 3 days ago.

[mostly-harmless]

I am a bit worried that they are currently wrecking their economy with the spread and by that delaying the trade as a side effect. We could research writing ourselves in 6 turns by now. It is a shame we have to wait for libraries that long.

I believe it is clear how the agreed tech trade will go. If PAL wants to change it, it will give us an option to call the whole trade off. Something we should consider. Once we trade them archery & iron working, they will be invincible for long time.

mh

[ruff_hi]

I missed their email - just saw their in game chat. Here is my draft ...

Whiplash,

I thought the last email was clear re ETA. We'll have those 3 techs ready to trade before you finish Alphabet. The 1) and 2) represented the two tech trades required as we cannot trade for both Writing and Alphabet on the same turn - it has to be spread over 2 turns due to in-game mechanics. The actual tech order is of secondary importance but the agreed tech order ...

Turn X) Archery + 40beaker coupon for Writing
Turn X+1) Iron Working + Sailing for Alphabet

... removes any incentive for a team to renege on the second trade. Team RB would be willing to throw Sailing into the Turn X trade.

Longer term - we are probably heading towards Monarch (as mentioned earlier) and a Monarchy (500 beakers) / CoL (429 beakers) trade would wipe out that 40 beaker coupon that you have.

Finally, we didn't say that we didn't want to form a long term alliance. We said that we were not disposed at this point in time. To be frank - such a suggestion (2 Civs from our continent and 1 from yours) would set you up for a pretty easy victory - up to date in tech and totally dominant in land. As it is - your current position, although precarious, will be very strong once the above trades go through.

Ruff
Team RB

I think that I can drop the 'your voice on Team RB' for PAL as they seem to be more direct. Note that I have tried to modify my style here from the Templars 'words are king' to the 'just say what you mean'.

[sooooo]

Looks good Ruff. Our relationship with PAL may well change in a while, depending on if they can convert their land grab into economic gain, but for now there is not much we can do. Can we merge Zeviz's new thread into this post?

[Zeviz]

The message looks good.

My only question is: do we want to give them Monarchy? That tech would give them a much more immediate happiness boost than CoL.

EDIT: Sorry about thread proliferation. For merging in my thread, I don't have moderator permissions. Should we ask admins to give moderator permissions here to a few leaders (Sulla, Sooooo, myself, anybody else?)

[sunrise089]

My question is whether we should even make the trade at all at this point. In the other thread we're discussing trade embargoes and attacks, and both of those options will be more or less useless once we've given them the most valuable techs and the means to defend themselves for a hundred turns.

My out-of-the-box thought would be to hook our horse up ASAP, slave chariots and galleys, stall for time on the trade ("Iron working took a few more turns then we thought") and land 4-6 chariots next to their warrior-defended cities.

I know that's a risk and sort of underhanded, but I'm alarmed at the discussion that seems to amount to "PAL is clearly running away with the game, and their only weakness is a weak military, but lets just follow business as usual until we've made them unassailable."

[regoarrarr]

@sunrise - I don't disagree with you that PAL is a problem, but how many turns do you think it would to get say even 4 chariots and 2 galleys to their continent?

20 turns at a minimum? Seems like it would be hard to stall for that long

What about the other 2 teams on their continent? Have we reached out to them?