Team Info and Contacts - PAL

[Kylearan]

Hi,

okay, I'm convinced re: PAL's possible foothold on our continent - let's send this letter.

-Kylearan

[sooooo]

Email sent.

[Zeviz]

Since OB provide benefit to PAL, but not to us, we should close them and offer to split the difference: If they want borders to remain open during the war, they pay us half of the extra income they are getting from them.

EDIT: Even if we don't want to try requesting payment, I'd suggest closing borders. There is no reason to provide PAL with massive amounts of free cash.

[sooooo]

I checked in a SP game and apparently closing borders does not cancel resource deals. However, I do not think that closing borders with them will affect them that much. Their trade routes will change to smaller templars and imperio cities, but that will cost them only a handful of GPT.

If one of the teams attacking us signs a peace deal, we will find it difficult to open borders with PAL again if we close them. Also, we need to keep them on our side if we cannot get the other teams to turn against them. If we make them our enemies, they would stop the ivory trade and probably help templars and imperio in their war against us.

That is, unless we can negotiate a 3-way deal with templars and imperio to close borders with PAL. That is unlikely, and we suffer the risk or one of those teams forwarding our email on to PAL.

[Sullla]

Unfortunately, we're in a lose-lose situation with PAL. We need to stop working with them to slow down their inevitable march towards victory, but they are also one of the few powers on the board that has shown any willingness to help us. Templars and Imperio are at war with us, and Rabbits are too weak to be of any consequence. I mean, what are we supposed to do? Templars and Imperio attacking us practically amounts to throwing the game to PAL. Those guys must be popping the champagne corks and laughing their asses off over there.

In a logical world, we would ally together with the other teams to create an anti-PAL trading block. But this is the Apolyton Demogame, where half the teams seem to be completely insane, and all the teams with sense (PAL and Banana) either can't or won't help us out.

Long-term, the only hope is to somehow eliminate Imperio and Templars, and then enact an exclusive tech-trading alliance with Banana to stand up against PAL's might. But I'm worried that by the time we manage to do that, PAL will have already won the game... Oh well, we'll just have to do the best we can. Beating the living daylights out of Templars/Imperio will be a fun start.

[mostly-harmless]

Don't forget that pal has the lighthouse, so they already trade with all cities on our continent. Closing borders will hurt them for approx. 12gpt. Not enough to make a difference. Let's face it. They have won the game. Let's have fun going for 2nd place.
Mh

[Krill]

Didn't you know Sullla? All demogame teams are insane.

[MyOtherCar]

Long-term, the only hope is to somehow eliminate Imperio and Templars, and then enact an exclusive tech-trading alliance with Banana to stand up against PAL's might. But I'm worried that by the time we manage to do that, PAL will have already won the game... Oh well, we'll just have to do the best we can. Beating the living daylights out of Templars/Imperio will be a fun start.

Strategically we're in a losing situation. The stalemate we're currently in slows down all the teams on our continent. Without looking at the tactical situation, we should break the stalemate by going on the offensive against one of our opponents in the near future. It could be that Imperio and Templars are misleading us with their obsolete and small stacks and have better forces in their cities, but since they have on their cities currently undefended I get the feeling we could beat them in an offensive.
They are now pillaging us, forcing us to build units to nothing more than defending PD and CT if they attack. This costs us in terms of unit payments and loosing our international trade routes.

Like I said, I haven't really looked into the tactical situation, but my point is I'm (notice I write I'm and not we are) missing a directive for the team to resolve this other than how to defend our two cities.

Like Sullla said, it's more fun to call a Friday the 13d on the Templars and stripping the imperium from Imperio anyway.

Just my 2

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I don't think we can afford to go on the offensive just yet, although this might change in a couple of turns if we manage to take out Imperio's SoD without too many losses. Right now, trying to take the battle to them would result in us in losing key cities and resources.

We have to be patient. We *will* conquer our continent once we have Nationalism, I'm sure of that - and that is not *that* far in the future.

And then? Let's see if we have really lost the game already to PAL. It's hard to say which lands will be better then, ours or theirs. PAL will have (already has) a tech lead, but that doesn't mean they will be able to invade us - island invasions aren't that easy to do. So let's see if we can hold out until, for example, we win a cultural victory...

-Kylearan

[T-hawk]

Like I said, I haven't really looked into the tactical situation, but my point is I'm (notice I write I'm and not we are) missing a directive for the team to resolve this other than how to defend our two cities.

Check out the thread titled "Operation Bloodbath". Short version: we break the stalemate by rushing to Nationalism and drafting macemen, then Oromo Warriors. Drafting provides massive unit output compared to building or whipping, and we should get there considerably ahead of Templars and Imperio (barring PAL feeding them Nationalism for peanuts.)

[sunrise089]

My Other Car - You're correct about our short-term strategic situation. Unfortunately we are partially at the mercy of outside forces, and when those forces do silly and foolish things we may not be left with very good alternative.

Tactically however going on the offensive is a terrible idea. Right now Templars plus Imperio have more units than we do. This is in spite of only RB building more units over the past 5 or so turns. Furthermore many of our players want to devote 2 of the 4 cities we currently have producing military back to domestic production. Honestly, since Templars and Imperio seem to be slowing their military builds that will probably allow us to keep pace, but we won't be growing our stacks very quickly.

Anyways, the realistic possibilities for RB offensive designed to end the war are non-existent in the short term if the enemy stacks are still in play.

"They are now pillaging us, forcing us to build units to nothing more than defending PD and CT if they attack." - They have pillaged some roads and a mine we're not working. Doing so has cost them dearly. The unit's we've built have not merely defended our cities, but have attacked out and killed 5 units so far to one loss. It will be 7:1 next turn.

"This costs us in terms of unit payments and loosing our international trade routes. " - Our unit maintenance will be MUCH higher if we move our units into enemy land. We get our trade routes back not merely by going on the offensive, but by actually signing peace. Taking one city may not do that.

Anyways, just remember this isn't the AI. If we send a small stack our enemies will just slave/position longbows in the city, and we can't touch it. If we send our big stack Imperio will either burn Cape Town or just kill our stack with their 7 catapults.

I council patience.

[MyOtherCar]

Good points Sunrise. I stand 'corrected'.

[sooooo]

A reply from PAL:

Hi Realms,

We will probably cancel Ivory for Marble deal since we have marble
now. We'd like to change it to ivory for dyes. Does this work for
you?

We have an NAP with Imperio until turn 154. They want to continue the
NAP, but if they are supporting rabbits, that is a roadblock. I see
rabbits are actually giving Imperio four gold per turn. Yes, that is
weird.
Imperio is very slow to respond.

-crescent of PAL

[sooooo]

From the tone of the message I think PAL did not know about Imperio supporting rabbits, so it's good that they now do.

The dyes for ivory does work, but we need to connect up our third dyes. Thankfully we have a worker on the dyes and can start roading this turn.

We should try to be careful not to invoke the same bug as last time, ie trading all of our dyes for all of their ivory. Maybe it would work if we make them as seperate gifts.

I replied to them saying we received their email and will get back to them soon about the dyes.

[sooooo]

A draft:

PAL,

Ivory for dyes is doable for us. Did you discover a work-around to stop the double-resource-trade bug that hampered our wines/gems trade? Do you think that making it into two gifts would work?

Let's make the swap-over next turn (T136).

Realms Beyond