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Strategy Notes From Vel - The Early Game....

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  • #76
    Hey guy, and thank you for the vote of confidence! I think that, even tho we don't have a banner saying as much, we do have a thread in this one that's been viewed more than ten thousand times in the span of less than a week....solid indication that lossa folks are dropping by here to read, so that's a good thing!

    Been thinking too....one of the very best ways to really get the ol' heart skipping several beats with regards to the game is to generate lots of fanfic. To that end, I've been following the excellent AAR's posted in the fiction section of this board, and have been toying with the notion of putting something similar together....don't know if the game outlined above will qualify since I didn't make any notes to myself covering....oh...the first five thousand years or so, and there's no guarantee that it'll be truly compelling, but I'll try and either finish it out tonight, or come damnably close to it, and I should be able to tell by then if it'd make a worthy story....still, I have to admit that it's been a terriffic game so far, what with out-settling to of the expansionist-oriented civs, and (something I failed to mention in my earlier reporting of it), a TON of problems with barbarian hordes! In addition to lots of aggresive towns (many of which in hard to root out mountains), there were FOUR "horde invasions" which ransacked three of my fledgling towns repeatedly, causing loss of production, population and troops....to say nothing of the hit to the treasury.

    Still, the position was just soooo good that I doggedly kept at it, finally settled out the barbarians (the last mountain stronghold cost me six warriors and I STILL never rooted them out, so I finally settled a town nearby, rushed in a temple and when the borders expanded...poof.

    That was pretty intense, and of course, some early border tension between me, the Americans and the Rus....so I guess there's enough raw material for a decent yarn, but the point where the game is now will be telling.....it could just go so many different ways.

    I intentionally tried to get by with only building warriors, hoping to hold off on anything better til musketeers, cos they're upgradable to modern infantry, which make excellent city defense, and I'm just now building the first of those.

    So....first step will be to modernize the military and simply retire my long-standing warrior corps. Once I do that, I'm thinking that I'll turn inward to bulk up infrastructure and attempt to hold off hitting the Rus until I can go in with tanks vs. whatever they have at that point. If I attack, I'll definitely want to sweep them off the continent, but they DO have colonial holdings on a few scattered islands, so I'm thinking a two-part war....part one will be a drive for the capitol, and a holding action against their "finger cities." As part of the peace settlement, I'll ask for all their island cities as well. I've had good luck in previous wars (other games) in asking for cities near the action but never taken, so we shall see.

    Then, I'll see if I can goad them into attacking me a second time, when they're isolated to a few holdings on the peninsula south of me and put them out of their misery.

    One thing though....I don't wanna be a global conquerer in this game, but I do see the need for thinning the herd a bit, and I think a quick conquest to grab a few ancient era wonders and some new territory might be just the thing to catapult me into a solid first place as a world power.

    Feels wierd tho, being in the middle ages and still running in third place...lol...I love getting bested by the AI! I think it speaks volumes about the care and effort that went into the creating of our computer opponents!

    So....I guess this is also something of a "Vel shopping for ideas" thing too....

    Glance over the "Veloci la France" post and let me know what you'd do if you were in my shoes. As I see it, my basic choices/the basic situation are/is:

    1) A Gracious America to my west - we're connected via a one tile wide land bridge, with forts built up on both sides. They are excellent trading partners, and I could probably rely on them in a war later.

    2) The Rus are a marginal, backwater power and would be easy enough to take out, but the drawback there is that the real estate they hold isn't all that valuable (which is part of the reason I didn't bother to settle it). Still, it's an easy conquest, would require no tricky logistics as far as reinforcements go, and would still see sufficient gains as to catapult me into the top spot.

    3) The continent that the Germans, et. al are on is filled to the brim with cities of other cultures. There is no option of settling anywhere on that continent. If I were to go, it would be as an invader, unless I could somehow buy a town from one of the civs. In any case, it's pretty far away.

    4) The Greeks have a fine civilization built, and are actually right with me, culturally. They have better tech than the Rus, and a more cohesive empire, so it would be a significantly harder fight to knock them out. On the other hand, acquiring the continent they're on and absorbing all that rich culture would put me in a position of almost instant dominance. And, I DO have a toehold on their continent already, thanks to the little American city that defected....

    Thoughts?


    -=Vel=-
    Last edited by Velociryx; November 13, 2001, 16:34.
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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    • #77
      Chris...my bad...LOL...yep...I was thinking spearmen and writing about warriors....true, it's not great, and I'm still wrestling with ways to make little clusters of crap towns into viable production centers....that's where I am so far, but I'm still workin' on it!

      -=Vel=-
      The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Random Strat Notes from games played....

        Originally posted by Velociryx
        In the meantime, I set two towns to making some improvement or expensive unit (making sure that they’re the “closest town” to my lumberjack crews), and let the others make warriors, to hop over to one of the towns that are actually making something important and disbanding. Trading a 10-shield warrior for 5 shields of “real” production is actually TONS better than the rate of corruption in some of these towns, and in the absence of any good options for speeding construction of needed goods (no caravan/crawler cashing, for which I am glad!), it represents one way to make the production time respectable.
        Vel, I don't know what's different in your game, but the games I've played, I only get 2 shields when I disband a warrior, not 5. Trading a 10 shield warrior for 2 shields of 'real production' isn't such a hot deal....

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Velociryx
          4) The Greeks have a fine civilization built, and are actually right with me, culturally. They have better tech than the Rus, and a more cohesive empire, so it would be a significantly harder fight to knock them out. On the other hand, acquiring the continent they're on and absorbing all that rich culture would put me in a position of almost instant dominance. And, I DO have a toehold on their continent already, thanks to the little American city that defected....
          I'm curious... do you know why the American city defected to you? Was it adjacent to any of your territory? Did it have any of your foreign nationals in its population?
          - What's that?
          - It's a cannon fuse.
          - What's it for?
          - It's for my cannon.

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          • #80
            Re: Re: Random Strat Notes from games played....

            Originally posted by ChrisShaffer
            Vel, I don't know what's different in your game, but the games I've played, I only get 2 shields when I disband a warrior, not 5. Trading a 10 shield warrior for 2 shields of 'real production' isn't such a hot deal....
            Disbanding units in Civ3 gives 1/4 their production value (rounded down) in shields instead of Civ2's 1/2 production value.

            If producing a wonder disbanding gives 0 shields (I think). Not sure yet about lumberjacking re wonders.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Velociryx
              Hiya Soren! I was kinna curious about that as well...I'd have thought it would have been absorbed by the Greeks, being on their continent and all....but I guess my capitol is actually closer to it than the Greek capitol (their large island/small continent is roughly rectangular in shape, with it's longest borders running north and south....the American city is at the extreme north tip, near the continent we share, and the Greek capitol is much more to the south)....

              I don't *think* our borders are touching across the narrow sea that separates us, but I'd have to check the map when I get home to make sure. Needless to say, I was MOST pleasantly surprised by the acquisition....been toying with the notion of temporarily relocating the capitol there just to see if I can scarf up a few more cities....now that I'm stronger culturally, when I relocate the capitol away again, I should be able to hold onto them.

              Anyway, I'll check the border thing when I get out of here and go back to continue my game!

              -=Vel=-
              You wouldn't happen to have a save game from before the city converted would you? If so, please post it... I'd like to take a look.

              I was wondering who would first come up with the "palace rush" strategy, so I shouldn't be surprised that it was you...
              - What's that?
              - It's a cannon fuse.
              - What's it for?
              - It's for my cannon.

              Comment


              • #82
                Hiya Soren! I was kinna curious about that as well...I'd have thought it would have been absorbed by the Greeks, being on their continent and all....but I guess my capitol is actually closer to it than the Greek capitol (their large island/small continent is roughly rectangular in shape, with it's longest borders running north and south....the American city is at the extreme north tip, near the continent we share, and the Greek capitol is much more to the south)....

                I don't *think* our borders are touching across the narrow sea that separates us, but I'd have to check the map when I get home to make sure. Needless to say, I was MOST pleasantly surprised by the acquisition....been toying with the notion of temporarily relocating the capitol there just to see if I can scarf up a few more cities....now that I'm stronger culturally, when I relocate the capitol away again, I should be able to hold onto them.

                Anyway, I'll check the border thing when I get out of here and go back to continue my game!

                -=Vel=-
                The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Hey Vel, great stories. Any chance of posting a few zoomed out screen shots so we can all get some visuals on your game?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    I am not sure what is more depressing to me, that I am failing to grasp this game or hearing so many that are having no big problems. I played SMAC and all of the Civs from Civ1-3, CTP1/2 and several difficulty levels, but can not get the hang of this even at chieftain. Tried rex, tried standard ways, tiny to standard sizes and many civs. All end up breaking down at various points. Either the unhappiness or attacks gets me on the ropes. The best shot was culture win on my first try, but I ran out of time and global warming was getting bad (yeah, I had recycle and no factories, go figure). Pollution was a daily thing, some times more than one out break a day? I must be doing something wrong, but really, the easiest level should not be a struggle for an experienced gammer. I can understand at the next level or so, but man. I was always a non fan of the overload of unhappy citizens, but even when all the good stuff is up and you have most of the wonders and roads to the capital and even FP, they still get disorder??? How unhappy are the people in Beverly Hills, do tey wreck the town? Why is it a declaration of war to whack settlers in your territory? They are the same as a spy to me and should be fair game, no penalty in in your area or at least go back to expelling. I know everone says let them go and absorb the town, but who wants it at that time? It is of no value often if it is real close to other towns. I guess I need a step hand holding guide, of well back to try another tack. Nightmare mode in LOD was a lot easy.

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                    • #85
                      I am a big fan of "early game land grabs", via expansion or conquering. I end up conquering in the early game in most games even when I intend to be a builder, because of this the persians are quite nifty.

                      They have a 83% win frequency with veteran immortals attacking fortified spearmen in a city... with elite immortals that moves up to 90%!

                      I need to play this game a lot more before I can start making generalizations... all that I am sure about so far is that Industrious is good. So as of right now Persians are my number 1 choice because of the Immortals... France probably number 2, I would like to try the Egyptians, they would seem to be good at having productive cities (happier people due to temples, more productive due to good workers).

                      Keep posting Vel... I have a feeling that games will be much more "unique" in civ3 due to random resources, start locations, and overall AI interactions.

                      vmxa if pollution bothers you play with an Industrious civ, it can never hurt to have workers that work at double the speed!

                      Next game is definatly as French, since shields and commerce lose the exact same percent as corruption in any individual city I should be able to effectively analyze how much money I am gaining by being Commercial... I would be surprised if it where more than 6%

                      Other thoughts-
                      I think people will really have to change how they analyze themselves as "momentum" players or "builders", I think civ3 will make everyone a hybrid. The highly randomized game elements will be part of it, but also the entire resource control system, and the more effective enemy AI. Having high research isn't all that useful if it angers every other civ at you, and those civs can conquer you easily. It seems to help to not stick out too much in this game. Having a lot of land can reinforce your builder tendencies by having a lot of luxuries, and tech moves slowly enough in this game it is easy for me to keep up in Infrastructure and military units.

                      Going back to early game conquering: To me the industrial age is vital, where the winners and losers of the game are chosen. By putting yourself in a strong position at the start of the Industrial age you are more likely to be one of the people who comes out ahead... it is handy not having to trade other civs for any other resources.

                      Luxuries overall have a much much larger affect on happiness than facilities, it is possible to get 20 happy faces from luxuries, that number is about 6 with facilities (errr buildings)

                      A "defensive war" isn't necissarily more efficient than a war that is more hybridized, for example if you know you are about to be attacked and want to be a nice little builder, it may be much cheaper for you to quickly take a city so that your enemy has no rubber than for you to fortify every city with garrisons.
                      Last edited by Enigma; November 13, 2001, 22:06.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Enigma
                        I need to play this game a lot more before I can start making generalizations... all that I am sure about so far is that Industrious is good. So as of right now Persians are my number 1 choice because of the Immortals... France probably number 2, I would like to try the Egyptians, they would seem to be good at having productive cities (happier people due to temples, more productive due to good workers).
                        I used to be a fan of France, until I played the Egyptians. Religious is sooo much better than Commercial, even considering that Commercial gets a corruption reducer. I'm able to pump out temples and cathedrals in new cities quickly, so my culture skyrockets, and I'm quite frankly addicted to 1 turn roads and railroads (let alone mines and irrigation!). The unique unit isn't so hot, basically horsemen that can't go into jungle or mountains but are 33% less expensive, but hey, I can live with that.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          But doesn't Scientific seem better to you? I think that the religion bonus reduced anarchy bonus may be slightly better than the extra techs you get when you reach a new eral, but I would much rather build libraries universities and research labs. Besides science affects all 3 of these improvements, religion affects only temples and cathedrals. Science buildings seem to give me more culture than religious ones (temple 2, Library 3)...

                          But hey I agree with you about industrial, I am just about to undergo the industrial revolution and I can't wait to start building a rail network to connect my empire.

                          And as far as the Egyptian UU not being so hot... have you taken a peek at immortals

                          Wait longbowmen, what are those, why would someone want to build a unit with four offense and only one defense for extra minerals?

                          Immortals are like longbowmen on steroids that you can get earlier and build more quickly... plus they have a cool name!

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                          • #88
                            Vel, I have a question.

                            If you take those cities on a different continent won't they be near useless due to corruption? I've had the same problem with some cities on an island that I took from the French in one of my games. I've rush built practically all of the improvements in them, but they still suffer from almost crippling corruption.

                            I'd just like to know how you'd handle corruption since your good at the strategy tips!
                            "I know nobody likes me...why do we have to have Valentines Day to emphasize it?"- Charlie Brown

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                            • #89
                              Wow this is excellent stuff!

                              Vel: Just wondering if you have a website where you document all this great information, or if you supply it to any website.

                              I just filtered out all your comments into a 26 page worddocument. Will be reading it on the train home, cant wait to go.

                              It is great information for gamers everywhere!
                              Last edited by remconius; November 14, 2001, 10:43.
                              You have now entered the Civilization IV era!
                              A guide to City Specialization
                              Building Elite Units
                              "I pledge addiction to Civ4 of Firaxis Games in America, and to 2K Games which publishes it: one franchise under Sid, inescapable, with certainty of "One More Turn(TM)" for all!" - The Pledge of Addiction

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                              • #90
                                Stiels Capital Isolation

                                Hey Vel,

                                I want to add something.

                                You want to attack Russia, maybe I have a suggestion that you could use, it's called:

                                STIELS CRUSH THE COUNTRY IN ONE TURN!!!

                                You have to do following:

                                -Determ where Russia's capital is
                                -Look if you can reach it with units in one turn (bombers)
                                -Make plenty of units to attack the capital

                                When you have a big seized army, do following:

                                -ATTACK ALL ROADS THAT ARE DIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH THE CAPITAL!

                                Why?
                                1. The Russians wont aqcuire strategic resources (cannot build modern units any more)
                                2. The Russian wont acquire luxury recources (which will cause civil dissorder in whole Russia)

                                But keep in mind: DO NOT TAKE THE CAPITAL!
                                If there is a HARBOR in the city destroy it!
                                If there is a AIRPORT in the city destroy it!
                                Very important because the Russians will built in in another city and then you'll have to start all over again.

                                When you have done this you are in the position a conquer Russia, the Russian will be very weak.

                                Try it and you'll love it!
                                Last edited by stiel; November 16, 2001, 10:06.

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