Strategy Notes From Vel - The Early Game....

[Velociryx]

LOL! Drago...that's an awesome observation about Privateers! Perehaps they're not so broken after all then! Very cool! I didn't even see your post til just now man....I opened the reply thread and in the time it took me to write out my last response, you slipped a post in on me...and an excellent one at that! I know....I have a bad habit when building stuff to skip everything but the biggest and best, but I definitely see your point re: the Destroyers....will have to add a few to my slowly growing fleet!

And, I *totally* agree about the complimentary nature of units. I was a little skeptical of the abstracted use of bombers, but after making four runs at Athens while my troops were lining up for their shot (and pelting them from the battleship), I'm a believer! Athens was a wreck!

Ahhhh...damn....almost time to go home and play!

Hmmm...interesting observations about both the ancient and midieval eras....I may have to go back and give warfar in the middle ages a try then....

As to the ancient era...I've generally found it pretty easy going. Seems like my swordsmen just abuse those poor spearmen, and even my Babylonian Bowmen win more often than you'd expect for a 2 attack unit....but, maybe I've just been lucky....

-=Vel=-
PS: It's official....I decided to post a story in the Civ3 Fiction section, based on the game described here. First segment is up....

[Lohrax]

Vive la France!

Vel - great posts! Been reading with rapt interest - keep 'em comin'!

Background - I've played every Civ there is. Used to beat Civ2 regularly on Deity - and none of that 'temporal reversion device' crap. I've played four games so far - record is 1-3. I got WORKED on Regeant/Huge/16/Raging playing the Romans. Died early trapped between the Persians and Zulus. Believe me, if you are in that position - good luck! With the Germans (same setup) I scrapped my way into the industrial era by purely political means until I ended up entangled in a rather nasty web of alliances and got royally thumped by a neighbor who back-stabbed me. With the Americans (same setup) I made it into the medieval era before encountering a rampaging Japanese horde that walked all over my resource-poor arctic tundra. I just finished Warlord/Huge/16/Raging playing the French and conquered the world about 25 turns into the Industrial era - I thought it was way too easy and the following post provides insights as to why. Next game will be Regeant/Standard/8 with the French, as that appears to be the de facto standard and I'd like to see if my supposed French bonuses extend into higher difficulty levels.

Ancient vs. Modern Warfighting
I'd have to pick ancient under Despotism (The Despotic Whip - never leave home without it!). Once you have two or three food-producing cities they crank out mobile military-worker-mobile military-worker-mobile military-worker... The workers are sent to the border cities where they augment culture-improvement production or local (slogging foot soldiers) military production. While the culture improvements in the border cities are being built, you can effectively use the population points produced by your core cities to allow a 75% military production rate (border cities alternate improvement/military/improvement/military). Once the border cities are fleshed out, you can switch to a truly disgusting 100% military production rate. If you've got a good or great unique unit you simply overpower your opponents.

Vive la France! The views are based on the above situation, so take them with a grain of salt (size of grain to be determined by the next few games). The French civ 'bonuses' are so balanced they are scary. Rather than getting an advantage in one particular era, they are spread out, but with ever-increasing effectiveness.

In the ancient era: no units, no culture (commercial really comes into it's own in the more advanced governments) except industrious workers - but wait! Industrious workers kick butt! Finishing roads faster, lumberjacking faster, improving faster, etc. And under a despostism you can force labor anything you want. As long as you have some good food-producing cities (gives a whole new meaning to the term 'baby boomers' - population units under despotism are extremely effective weapons in the War of Production) all other production capabilities are nicely augmented. With early libraries, you offset their gold investment with science benefits then that keep you in the race and, when the gold increases start rolling in, will give your research efforts a swift kick in the pants. With industrious workers roadbuilding way, way into the frontiers, settlers found border cities faster.

In the Medieval era: the Musketeer is born! An offensive/defensive unit capable of both assaulting enemy cities and defending your own. Not the most advantageous of units, it is probably the weakest unique unit compared to the other 'standard' units of its age. But now that we are into more advanced governments, the commercial advantage starts to come into its own. Can't sacrifice citizens to the alter of progress? Fine, sacrifice gold! The commerical bonus increases gold and REDUCES CORRUPTION! Of all the gripes I read about on this site, most are about corruption. Well, I don't see that as a problem with the French. Add in the FP and your corruption becomes effectively nil. This reduced corruption may even spawn a second glorious wave of expansion (if the land is empty) or heinous conquest - further cementing your position.

In the Industrial and Modern era the industrious workers, reduced corruption, and increased gold provide continued significant bonuses that only increase with time/city size/government type.

I look forward to playing the French on ever-increasing difficulty levels to see if my hypothesis holds up.

-Lohrax

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Serapis! Glad to see your name here! And please lemme know when you get the scenario made! I'd love to play it!!!

Hey there, no it's not a game scenario, just a bunch of set up fights, to check out all the animations at one time, not any challenge or anything, just an eye-candy display. Besides, the way my girlfriends nags me about using her computer and not paying attention to her, it'll be Xmas before I even finish my first Civ3 game which I'm only halfway into (after a week and half too ).

[vmxa1]

After getting into the second age, I had to automate the workers, it was hard to figure what they mite do next. My biggest complaint on that is they love make a mine, even on food item that has been irrigated. I also do not like/understand the trading bit. It seems way too one sided. I have the Romans down to two cities they are pop 1's. He ask for a trade of territory maps and I say add 1 or 2 gold and he gets upset? I have the whole island and he has never seen it, I do not even want his map and his is upset and says it is not a fair trade? This I have seen over and over they want more than it is worth and get upset if you do not deal. Os there a way to rush Wonders in Monarchy (with out leaders).

[Hastus]

Long Live The Heroic Epic!

One thing I havent seen much written about is the Heroic Epic Wonder. I played the Zulus on a standard map on regent difficulty and planned to wage war at the very start.
After some scouting and expansion I found out I shared a continent with two other civilizations, Germany and France.
When I had a five cities up and running I started to pump out Zulu Impi's and moved towards Germany becouse they where the one closest to me. Since The Zulu's are Militaristic I quickly gained 3 elite Impi's. I really find The Zulu's special units very good, they are a fast unit which most times will withdraw from a battle if it is going bad and they can later on be upgraded all the way to mech infantery. Anyway, from one of those elite units emerged a great leader so I used him to build a army with 3 zulu impis in since I had just taken a german town maybe 4 tiles from their capital and I wanted that one too. After my first victory with the army I was able to build Heroic Epic and did so in my Capital. My army later got slaughterd in Berlin by german forces... But I would like to forget that... Anyway moving on.
After I had built the Heroic Epic I was at peace but started a offensive against France 20 turns or so after I had built it.
I then had maybe 4 elites and from those 4 elites I gained no less than 4 Great Leaders! It all happened in a 40 turns.
After that last war with France I rushed 3 wonders, I saved one of the Great Leaders to rush the United Nations later on since I was not very liked by any civilization I did not want to lose the game becouse someone else built it. Anyway, its my first game that I have gotten 5 great leaders.
I guess it can have been alot of luck but I think the Heroic Epic had alot to do with it. So I never regreted building the Heroic Epic I can say.

[martin3393]

Strategy guide to SMAX . . .

Hey Vel,

Where could I find your strategy guide to SMAX?

I'd enjoy looking at it!

Thanks.

Michael

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by vmxa1
After getting into the second age, I had to automate the workers, it was hard to figure what they mite do next. My biggest complaint on that is they love make a mine, even on food item that has been irrigated. I also do not like/understand the trading bit. It seems way too one sided. I have the Romans down to two cities they are pop 1's. He ask for a trade of territory maps and I say add 1 or 2 gold and he gets upset? I have the whole island and he has never seen it, I do not even want his map and his is upset and says it is not a fair trade? This I have seen over and over they want more than it is worth and get upset if you do not deal. Os there a way to rush Wonders in Monarchy (with out leaders).

1. If you use the shift-I command (recheck this in the manual, I don't use it so I might be wrong), it will automate the workers with the option that they do not replace existing improvements.

2. One reason why Rome might be upset is because he can't afford even the 1 or 2 gold. If you contact a civ with a short budget, even if it's a great tech worth 1,000s of gold per turn, if they're only pulling in 25 gold/turn and you ask for 26, you're advisor will change his tune from "They'll probably agree..."/happy face to "They'll never agree..."/angry face. Later on in the game, if you have a tech advantage going, you can sell the AI in bankruptcy to keep them poor. I'm doing that in my current game.

I'm focusing on military power for a near-future invasion, so I let America research everything, I buy techs off of them and then sell them to the other 6 civs, usually doubling my spent money. Only problem I've done it so much, that the AI can't afford any of the new techs, sometimes not even 3gold/turn. However, keeping the AI poor also has the added benefit of keeping a lot of his existing army obsolete because he can't afford to upgrade to newer units. That's how I've kept my hated Egyptian neighbors (ba$***** beat me out on Sistine and A.Smith) from upgrading a lot of their chariots.

3. There is no other way to rush-buy wonders except for great leaders, no matter what government you use. Although you should be able to speed it up using wood-cutting, check out SoulAssassin's IFE (Infinite Forest Exploitation) thread.

[vmxa1]

How does culture work? I captured the roman capitol and they had a one pop town that expanded its culture and push my borders back, even though it was bordered by a 9 and 12 pop cities with all improvemnets and roads, in fact one other city close by has the FP? this occurs after losing your starting city? It is strange, anyway I am set to conquer it with force. Using the schematic shown by Vel and really pushing the settlers out has got me off to a good start for the first age. I am not sure if I should try to put together a landing force, but right ow I can not see any other land mass, except one Ilse that I did colonize. I think the light house if I am first to get it up will let me travel farther. I plan on cranking ot road all the way around the perimeter to stop and landings of settlers. I believe they need a right of passage to go onto tiles with roads?

[SerapisIV]

Capturing a city resets the culture collected in in that city. Each city's culture borders are individually calculated, so even if your cities nearby have high culture, you new city won't have any until you build the culture improvements.

Other civs don't need right of passage to go onto your tiles with roads, a right of passage gives the units the movement benefit that roads give. However if they don't have a right of passage, you (or the AI) can complain diplomatically.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by SerapisIV


1. If you use the shift-I command (recheck this in the manual, I don't use it so I might be wrong), it will automate the workers with the option that they do not replace existing improvements.

It's shift+A to automate units so that they don't replace existing improvement.

[SerapisIV]

Whoops, next time I won't quote exact commands then, I'll just point to the manual.

Any chance of a the patch including an all-inclusive shortcut FAQ Soren? There's a lot of hidden shift-right click-ctrl type stuff thats hidden in the game and would make like a little easier for us.

grumbles under his breath that it should've been included in the LE box on the index card claiming to be a "tech poster." Damn publishers.

[byped]

Hey, just posting my thoughts on war in the different eras.

Ancient- One word: PERSIANS. The persians have become without a doubt my favorite race simply for the ability of immortals to dominate the ancient world. Nothing can really stop them defense wise untill musketeers come into the picture. Because of this it makes it much easier to set up and protect your borders around an optimal chunk of land early on. Which is really important facing the new expansion-prone AI. Not just that, but in general war is easier because nobody has established mutual defense pacts or the like, making beginning and ending wars just about painless. Being under despotism/monarchy doesn't hurt either.

Mideval- As people have pointed out, war gets messy at this point as the defensive units become much more potent than the offensive ones. Even calvalry aren't effective enough against their defensive counterpart: the musketman, to make a large-scale offensive campaign viable. If I absolutely have to make war in this period, cannons become really important to offset the offensive/defensive imbalance.

Industrial- The early industrial period doesn't differ much from the early industrial, short of rifleman entering the picture, making the offensive/defensive problem even worse. But at the later part we see two additions that change this fast. Tanks and Bombers. With tanks, nobody can stop you defensively untill into the modern era, and bombers provide a much more effective solution for bombardment than artilllery IMHO. In my first few games I've spend the mideval-early industrial period positioning myself ready to make a dramatic strike to get land or a resource I've been wanting once I get these offensive units. It's usually never worth the risk attacking someone I share a border with, so I try to find targets that are ideally on another continent, or at least buffered by a friendly civ.

Modern- At this point I'm usually too preocupied with getting towards a cultural or space-ship endgame to make war worthwhile. And by this time things have usually settled down. One thing I'd be worried about was how often the AI used nukes, or even ICBMs, anyone have experience with this?

[madmario]

Temples are available well before libraries, so this helps immensely with the early came and cultire lockdown. Also, temples are already cheap, so this is a cheap culture grap. 12 price cathedrals is super snazzy, especially with the Sistine Chapel (OMG).

The UU isn't so bad. I like to delay the golden age as long as I can, but still, it is a two move unit (super useful) and is pretty cheap and is available very very early. Plus, it looks snappy. It also upgrades all the way to cavalry.

Immprtals are nice, but they only have a move of 1, and do not upgrade IIRC. attack 4 is hard to argue with, but they can be victimized by 2 move units.

Originally posted by Enigma
But doesn't Scientific seem better to you? I think that the religion bonus reduced anarchy bonus may be slightly better than the extra techs you get when you reach a new eral, but I would much rather build libraries universities and research labs. Besides science affects all 3 of these improvements, religion affects only temples and cathedrals. Science buildings seem to give me more culture than religious ones (temple 2, Library 3)...

But hey I agree with you about industrial, I am just about to undergo the industrial revolution and I can't wait to start building a rail network to connect my empire.

And as far as the Egyptian UU not being so hot... have you taken a peek at immortals

[madmario]

Mid Game War

You can plan for it. Of course some civs are better for this than others. The planing is in the horse units (since they are the best in the early-mid game). This is one way the Iroquois can keep pace with the French. The French have a pretty crappy UU. The Iroquois have the best one in the game. France has a great combo of civ bonuses, the Iroquois have an ok mix (better on some maps to be certain).

One way to look at Middle ages warfare is to have it revolve around knights and cavalry. If you have a horse-type early UU then this is especially good since you will probably have the troops around from your early war and golden age (Iroquois, Egyptians). Have one army if possible to do some grunt work. A move of 2+ is incredibly useful. Play it safe, attack in numbers, and heal up your units. Usually there will be two defenders, sometimes three, sometimes with 5+ artilery pieces (wich will take a bite out of your units so make sure they are veteran).

Either make a monster knight force or sprint for cavalry.

Early land can be very important later on.

I like a pre industrial war -- my second win after the ancient era fun. I generally don't do much after cav go out of style (that is when riflemen start cropping up) until tanks.

Of course, utilizing the heroic epic for all its worth is a really excellent extra benefit, One game with the iroqouis I got 5 great leaders in all. I didn't realize how cool this was until my next game as the french.

-mario

Originally posted by Velociryx
Btw...I'm curious to know where everybody else is on the topic of makin' war:

If I'm going to war, I much prefer to do so in the ancient era, or the modern.

[madmario]

Automating Workers

I Atomate with "build road/rr to there" mostly. I also use "cut all forests" and "cut all jungle" and "only clean up pollution," ut for the cutting ones I set them on a wooded area that I want them to cut (this tends to keep them in the area I want them to work). Later in the game I will use "automate, but do not work over existing improvements." You can find the shortcuts for these in the back of the manual - I find them usful...

-mario

Originally posted by vmxa1
After getting into the second age, I had to automate the workers, it was hard to figure what they mite do next.