Letter of JEFF BRIGGS to the CIV COMMUNITY

[Velociryx]

No.....I was not meaning to be a jerk, but c'mon....a patch on the day the game was released and another so far, and yet...and yet you would still argue till you're blue in the face that the game wasn't broken or incomplete?

If that were so, then why a patch on day one? Why a second patch to fix apparently nonexistent 'net connectivity issues?

Could it be that perhaps....just *perhaps*....the game wasn't.......done yet? Maybe....didn't work as advertised, and so had to be patched?

Don't worry....if you admit that the game was not in a state of polish or completion upon release, you won't fall from the light and join the dark side or anything, you'll just be telling it like it is.

-=Vel=-

PS: And yes, I found the PTW patch on civ3.com, posted on December 2, 2002.....not under the PTW Download section (which of course, is high on the page, and likely to be more frequently viewed.....hey! but on the other hand you can watch the PTW advertisement there!), but rather, waaaaay down on the page in the general download section were the "Q4 type shopper" would not likely see.

[Velociryx]

PS to my post above....just so we're clear on it, Asleep....*you* said it, not me.

I can't very well help it if you give me ammo....can't say I'll shy away from it, but dayum....that was a gimmie if ever there was one.

-=Vel=-

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Velociryx
PS to my post above....just so we're clear on it, Asleep....*you* said it, not me.

I can't very well help it if you give me ammo....can't say I'll shy away from it, but dayum....that was a gimmie if ever there was one.

-=Vel=-

I concede all points to you Vel.

Clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about. What do I know, I was deluding myself that night I bought and played PTW (both sp and mp). I see now that I was lying to myself and others. I wasn't actually playing the game, I was actually staring at a blank screen for those hours.

Clearly I should follow your beliefs even though you have never actually played the game. Only you have knowledge of what the patches do, how they took the broken game and have fixed it. Before I thought they were just to address certain issues some were facing, but I see now that I was horribly wrong.

I have no desire to play your headgames anymore Velociryx, my time is more valuable than that. I can see that you somehow feel personally slighted by Firaxis. I don't know why nor do I care.
At the end of the day, I will go back to playing a game that I like and you will still be bitter.

Good day, this is the last you will hear from me in this thread.

[Velociryx]

::shakes head sadly::

Nowhere in any of my posts has that EVER been my point.

I am not bitter toward Firaxis. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that I got my money's worth from the last product I bought from them.

There was a time when I was one of that company's vocal, ardent supporters. A true believer. A defender of the faith, as it were.

Firaxis/Infogreed's own actions made me wary of buying another product from them (the LE Tin thing, followed the commie implosion 'fix,' followed by a series of PR gaffes, followed by a bad PTW release), but in no way would I describe myself as bitter.

YOU, on the other hand, are upset with yourself for giving me the blade that struck the killing blow.

I can understand that, but don't try to put it off on me. That was among the most beautiful self-eviscerations in a debate that I have ever seen, but that was all you, my friend.

I had zip-olah to do with that one....much as I'd like to take credit for it....that was pure you, bro.

And by the way....don't get into all the pouty "I was delusional" junk....the freakin CEO of the company SAID there were problems with the game.....the CEO of the company spent money to fix problems with the game....companies don't do that for show....if they spent money, it was because there were problems with the game.

The CEO also stated that those problems were with the MP component of the game.

MP happens to be the most touted feature of the expansion.

Conclusion: No matter to what degree, PTW did not work as advertised upon release. If it had, the company would not have patched it, and Jeff would not have written the letter that began this thread.

You can deny it all you want....what? You're saying that Jeff imagined the problems he spent money to fix? That you, for whatever reason, have such an impossibly hard time admitting that the game didn't work as advertised on release that you'll deny any problems with it EVEN WHEN the company's own CEO says there are problems.

*sigh*

Self-evisceration.

[player1]

The thing is that WAS is NOT same as IS broken.

MP, and ONLY MP was broken in 1,01f version.

Now, MP is NOT broken, maybe not perfect but NOT broken.

So, what the whole point of this discussion about something which is WAS, and not IS.

Patch came, probelm fixed.

[FNBrown]

Originally posted by player1
The thing is that WAS is NOT same as IS broken.

MP, and ONLY MP was broken in 1,01f version.

Now, MP is NOT broken, maybe not perfect but NOT broken.

So, what the whole point of this discussion about something which is WAS, and not IS.

Patch came, probelm fixed.

I must respectfully disagree. I still cannot play a complete game via LAN without chronic out of synch errors ruining it by the modern era.

Regardless, Vel's point is that Firaxis farted out this game waaaay before it was ready for prime time, and a lot of folks will buy it right off the shelf, and be completely unable to play it. This is compounded by the fact that there's no "auto update" feature, and if they do happen across Civ3.com, it's not like finding the patch is very intuitive.

All in all, a botched snap and a broken play, if you asked me.

[player1]

Originally posted by FNBrown
I must respectfully disagree. I still cannot play a complete game via LAN without chronic out of synch errors ruining it by the modern era.

not perfect IS NOT equal broken

Originally posted by FNBrown
Regardless, Vel's point is that Firaxis farted out this game waaaay before it was ready for prime time, and a lot of folks will buy it right off the shelf, and be completely unable to play it. This is compounded by the fact that there's no "auto update" feature, and if they do happen across Civ3.com, it's not like finding the patch is very intuitive.

That's why the patch IS released. To FIX problems on release.
Now you can play PtW right out the shelf very nice. But only in SP.

On the other hand, difficulty to find it at civ3.com is Infogrames fault. Since they manage the website.

And poorly, if you ask me.

And it's Infogrames choice of PtW deadline.
So if games look rushed, it's not Firaxis fault. They did most what they could for time given.

[Velociryx]

So.....a Q4 buyer (whom we have already established is NOT likely to be a member of 'poly, and likely has nary a clue of where to go except for civ3.com) can by the *MP expansion* for civ 3 off the shelf, and play it in SP mode without a hitch.

And somehow this translates into an unbroken release?

One mo' time....I'm pleased with Firaxis' track record of after sales support. That was never....HAS never been my point.

The point is that Q4 buyers are generally less-informed buyers (as established earlier in this thread by Vondrack's well-informed post).

If a Q4 buyer goes to civ3.com to check out the latest information on the game, they'll get a whole lot of hype and hooplah, and nary a whisper on any of PTW pages about patches or problems with the game *as it exists off the shelf.*

Nada.

Not word one.

Yes....it IS IG's baby and ballgame, but as I said earlier, $hit rolls down hill, and that means, right onto the shoulders of Firaxis.

They're the indians, and IG is the Chief. When the fit hits the shan, it's the indians who take it on the chin, not the chief.

If Stephen King's next book is badly edited, do you think people will say...."Man! Random House really blows chunks!"

No.

They will say "Man, Stephen King really blows chunks!"

Same principle.

Same exact principle.

-=Vel=-

[player1]

Originally posted by FNBrown
This is compounded by the fact that there's no "auto update" feature...

Actually there IS from new patch:

The v1.14F patch for Play the World address issues related to some of the online multiplayer features in PTW, including fixes to the matchmaking process via GameSpy Arcade, improvements to overall game speed, fixes for lag issues and “player-drop” crashes, and the addition of Direct IP support. There is also an autopatching ability to alert online players of future patch updates. Check out the readme file for full details on all fixes.

Originally posted by FNBrown
...and if they do happen across Civ3.com, it's not like finding the patch is very intuitive.

You click on link Patches, and there is a patch.

Now non-intuitive.

[player1]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So.....a Q4 buyer (whom we have already established is NOT likely to be a member of 'poly, and likely has nary a clue of where to go except for civ3.com) can by the *MP expansion* for civ 3 off the shelf, and play it in SP mode without a hitch.

And somehow this translates into an unbroken release?

No.

He tried playing MP, and then somebody on the net asks him does he have 1.14f.

He said he has not, and ask the other guy where to get it.
Then he gets it from civ3.com or firaxis.com

After thet, he gets "promised" MP experience.

NOT perfect, problematic from time to time with some configurations, but not broken either (at least from 1.14f).



P.S.
And who says that Q4 buyer is infomed about PtW having MP at all.

Maybe he just wants it becaue it's Civ3 XP, which means scenarios and new civs.

P.P.S.
Although "scenarios" in PtW are not realy much.
(more like maps for MP)

[FNBrown]

Here's my theory:

The problem is that software publishers like Infogrames (again, I ask... what's an 'Infograme'?) take the Internet for granted.

Ten years ago, this wouldn't have happened. Software, once it was released, was very expensive to patch. If a company had unleashed such a buggy game upon an unsuspecting public, the following would likely happen:

1. Most consumers would simply take it back.
2. Those who didn't buy it right away, but read magazine reviews on the product would shy away, as the reviews would be negative.
3. Even if the company wanted to save face, the patch would have to be issued via mail. The expense would likely be prohibitive enough to negate any possible profit margin.
4. The software company would either a.) go bankrupt or b.) learn to release software at a later date following more thorough testing and internal bug-fixing.

Fast-forward to 2002. You're a fat executive at a software publishing company who is pushing for bigger, quicker profits so that your stock options increase in value, your profit sharing plan becomes more lucrative, and that promotion you wanted becomes more available. You know nothing about the product you're publishing since you're not even programming it in-house, but you know that your target audience is primarily Internet users who want to play online over high bandwidth connections. Hence, large patch downloads shouldn't really be a problem, should they? Why not push for an earlier release of the game? Get it out the door THIS quarter, enjoy the profit NOW as legions of fans run out to buy it, then make the programmers take the hit and scramble to patch the bugs later.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Velociryx
There was a time when I was one of that company's vocal, ardent supporters. A true believer. A defender of the faith, as it were.

Well, now that you've adopted Coracle's mantra, I can hardly reason with you...

I had zip-olah to do with that one....much as I'd like to take credit for it....that was pure you, bro.

You're right. His stating of facts in a way that could be rhetorically manipulated by you really showed... actually, it showed that all you have is rhetoric, because you don't have any actual facts or credibility for not owning the game. It's actually a shame, usually you are more high-level in your arguments. You are sounding mroe bitter.

Conclusion: No matter to what degree, PTW did not work as advertised upon release. If it had, the company would not have patched it, and Jeff would not have written the letter that began this thread.

How was is advertised? As MP? In that case, it did work as advertised, because quite a few people could play MP. It wasn't advertised to be flawless or to work perfectly for people with all pings. Obviously, major issues slipped through beta, and these were subsequently corrected.

If a Q4 buyer goes to civ3.com to check out the latest information on the game, they'll get a whole lot of hype and hooplah, and nary a whisper on any of PTW pages about patches or problems with the game

Oh yeah... except for the "patch" section. You seem to be inferring that the poor, helpless Q4 buyers are not only ignorant but also blind and mentally deficient. Well, whatever...

Once again: I see nothing wrong, nothing, with the behavior of the company on this issue...

On the other hand, I do see you telling people here how they were "eviscerated" in your arguments and how you dealt them the "killing blow." How kind of you, Vel. Remind me not to make Asleep's mistake and actually discuss facts in a neutral manner, or I'll be treated to one of your stunts.

Asleep is right, this isn't worth it, there isn't any sense present here. Clearly, you don't live in a universe that accepts the opinions of others. Ah, but at least I can rely on your trusty advice:

Don't worry....if you admit that the game was not in a state of polish or completion upon release, you won't fall from the light and join the dark side or anything, you'll just be telling it like it is.

Apparently "telling it like it is" = your viewpoint.

Cool. Whatever. Say hi to your buddies woody & coracle for me, who apparently have the same world view. I hope you enjoy PTW.

[Velociryx]

Well said and an excellent point, Master Brown.

As to Q4 buyers not knowing the PTW is an MP expansion.....I think that might be a bit of a stretch....the name "Play the World" rather implies MP in the first place, and in the second, it's plastered all over the PTW section of civ3.com (listed first, because it is, after all, the biggest, most ballyhooed feature of PTW), AND all over the box itself.

Given that most Q4 computer game buyers are at least literate, I think it's safe to say that they'd be expecting an MP expansion to Civ3 out of the box.

And again, I'm very glad and grateful (even tho I do not own PTW) that Firaxis has shown such committment to making the game right. I will once more reiterate however, that this was never my point.

The ONLY question that on my mind is:

Does the product description on the box and on Civ3.com = what you get when you open the box, install the expansion, and run it?

Does it?

Does it really?

Not according to the reviews I've read, and not according to the CEO of Firaxis, per his letter here.

-=Vel=-

[player1]

Originally posted by Velociryx
The ONLY question that on my mind is:

Does the product description on the box and on Civ3.com = what you get when you open the box, install the expansion, and run it?

Does it?

Does it really?

Yes, but only after the patch, not in-the-box.

But since patch was released just 3 WEEKS after the PtW release it's really not big deal.

3 WEEKS, and it's still Q4 season!

New customers would not get game with big MP probelsm, since they would get patch before playing MP.


SP works well without patching.

If anybody wants to play MP, then he WILLL surely hear about patches and install them (probably after first time trying to join MP game).

After that, they would get things promised.

[Velociryx]

Then the answer would be no. Not out of the box.

Yes...with patching, but that's not the same thing.

Different question.

-=Vel=-