Letter of JEFF BRIGGS to the CIV COMMUNITY

[H Tower]

i have a question, why is the anouncement for this thread still at the top of almost every single forum except for this one? including the OTF, where almost no one cares about computer games

[Alexander's Horse]

Damage control

I suspect if MarkG was a civ addict he might have a very different opinion on the product quality issue.

I'm not even sure he still plays TBS games any more. He certainly doesn't Multi Play as far as we know. So what would he care about PTW's MP features?

[Velociryx]

So you're saying that the software industry has more factors to consider than any other industry in the economy?

That there are no lessons to be learned from other industries because software design and development is such a very different beast?

That auto makers do not also have to cater to purchasers (the equal of "users" or "players" in this instance), investors, shareholders, their marketing and design crews, etc?

I contend that they certainly do, and in fact, the sum-total of marketing dollars spent by the auto industry is of a dollar value probably surpassing the net worth of all the game companies in this industry combined.

Additionally (to continue to use auto manufacturing as an example) there are federal safety regulators and regulations to contend with, environmental controls, and a whole host of other legal nightmares simply not found in the computer software business.

On balance then, the software industry has it light in comparison, because in addition to having fewer regulations to deal with, they DO have the ability to fix their broken products more easily.

An expensive game may have a production budget that runs into the low millions of dollars. To bring a car from concept to showroom costs....I have no idea, but I would venture a guess that it's a good many times more than that....and yet, in that industry, dealers and consumers are not expected to pay for the product before it exists.

I wholeheartedly agree, there are enormous differences in methodology, but quality and craftsmanship is a universal constant in the world of business. Quality is quality no matter where you go.

Except of course, when it comes to making games.

Here quality is whatever you can get ready for the Q4 selling period.

Never mind the fact that the whole of the retail business lives and dies by Q4 results (in that, the software industry is hardly unique). Never mind the fact that every other retail-oriented industry has to produce quality products or be shut down by their competition.

Ahhhh, but not in the topsy turvy world of games! And because it is the norm to ship it by Christmas no matter what shape it's in, we should all just continue to shell out those dollars and keep taking what they so offer us for sale, cos that's just the way it is, right?

I would also say that simply because a company has the ABILITY to release a broken product and fix it after they take your money does not automatically make it a good business practice.

Just because they can, does not mean they should.

We can, after all, institute full-scale human cloning right now.

Should we?

But even if you firmly believe that it just can't be changed....that this....what we have right now is the nature of the beast and there's simply nothing to be done about it, the fact remains that when you opened the PTW box and installed it, what you got for your thirty bucks was not....was NOT what is described and hyped in the quotes I pulled from the Civ3 website as being PTW.

It was not a synthesis of old ideas that worked and new innovation.

It was not the ultimate Civ multiplaying experience. While it allowed players to "Play the LAN," it did not allow players to "Play the World" (which was, if the name of the release is any indication, the point) with any sort of reliability, was it?

Because it was not....and because Civ3 out of the box was not the product described on the web site or by the hype (or for that matter, on the print of my LE Tin), is it really accurate then, to say that this is not "the sort of high quality *release* we have come to expect from Firaxis"??

I'm not makin' this stuff up.....all of this comes straight from Firaxis employees and/or the Civ3 website.

And the words there do not equal the reality.

That, to me, is the key....perhaps even the only point.

You can argue the merits or shortcomings of the game until you are blue in the face and not make one inch of headway. Subjective. Depends on your point of view, and precisely why I refuse to debate the issue. I got my money's worth out of Civ3. Some enjoyed it more....excellent! Some enjoyed it less....too bad. Subjective.

What is NOT subjective....what is NOT POV-dependent is the fact....the FACT that what you got when you opened the box was a very different animal than what was described on the company's own site. Maybe you didn't care....maybe you bought it for the SP features...and if so, that's GREAT! You got your money's worth, I'd bet!

Still doesn't change the fact mentioned above.

Impromptu poll.....who among the readers of this thread was expecting a high quality (meaning, relatively bug free and with a high degree of polish) PTW release?

Show of hands there?

-=Vel=-

PS: I would also say that you're in for a real treat when the first Velocigames product is ready for prime time.

See...until it's ready, we'll be giving it away....GIVING, not taking. And we'll be watching and listening to customer reaction. And we'll be doing something about it.

We'll release the game *for sale* when it's ready to be released.....maybe a bit later than that even (gotta take Q4 into account, after all), but we won't be releasing it before it's ready. That's a promise.

We might not be as speedy as the big guys, but what you get will be quality craftsmanship, and if we offer a patch, then it won't be to make the game more like how we described it....it'll be to add to or expand its scope.

Lunacy? Heh....maybe. But if so....what a refreshing form of lunacy.

-V.

[notyoueither]

Actually Vel, I've been playing people from across the pond (the Atlantic) since long before anyone saw the box on the shelf (they and I had good connections).

I will stress that many people who are posting here are forming opinions based on complaints from some who had a hard time getting going, or who found it impossible to start games under certain circumstances through GameSpy, or whose setup (computer, network, etc) have never allowed them to get going.

I observe at this point that the complaining is now feeding upon itself. People who have absolutely zero clue, because they have never tried it, are coming along and picking up the torch and complaining. It is almost funny, in a strange sort of way.

btw, no, PTW was not finished when it was released. It stood to be improved a great deal. It is being improved. Be that as it may, it is simply untrue that nobody was able to 'Play the World'. I and many others have been playing the world for a while now. That is a FACT.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Velociryx
What is NOT subjective....what is NOT POV-dependent is the fact....the FACT that what you got when you opened the box was a very different animal than what was described on the company's own site. Maybe you didn't care....maybe you bought it for the SP features...and if so, that's GREAT! You got your money's worth, I'd bet!

Still doesn't change the fact mentioned above.

Maybe... but what is the relevance?

Why do I care what was on the box or on the website if I am happy with the game? Gameplay for me is the only point, not the marketing.

You might have a point, but I see the examples you previously used, the ultimate blah blah, as being pure puffery and therefore something to be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, with no disrespect intended,
You have stated that you do not have PTW.
How can you make a claim that the game did not come as advertised, as you have no personal knowledge? My personal knowledge is that it was ok out of the box-playable mp, but in need of improvement, a far cry from your description.

[WarpStorm]

Like nye, I played people from across the pond with reasonable success. Actually, now that I think about it, nye is the main person I had any difficulty getting an enjoyable MP game going with because we always had red ping to each other.

[Cyclotron]

I have to disagree, Vel. If you don't have PTW, how can you make statements such as "it did not allow players to 'Play the World?'"

NYE is right about the boards. Several of the complainers here have taken up the "no MP" act without even owning the game... the same was true with various issues in Civ3 when it came out. You appear to be basing your opinions off the boards, which are known to be a source of concentrated criticism (why post if you have no problems?) and spur-of-the-moment comments that may have no basis in what is true or factual. Echoing those arguments is ok, but for somebody who doesn't own the game it doesn't look very objective at all.

In all, your statement is not very credible.

[Velociryx]

I am basing my opinions on the following information from the CEO of Firaxis, and found in the first post of this thread:

"....there are connectivity and lag issues with the internet multiplayer component....we’re addressing these issues....and are working diligently to remedy the situation....

The patch we are testing addresses issues related to internet play including, fixes to the matchmaking process via GameSpy Arcade, improvements to overall game speed, fixes for lag issues and “player-drop” crashes, and the addition of Direct IP support."

I am assuming that as the CEO of the company, if he says there are connectivity issues, then there are probably connectivity issues. I can think of no stronger indication of actual connectivity and lag issues than the statement by the company CEO that they are working on those very issues.

As to the relevence....::shrug:: if the accuracy of the company's own information about their products is unimportant to you, then I guess there IS no relevence....but in most cases, it's stuff like that....company product information....that people use to make informed decisions about a given product.

If the information is inaccurate, do you not think that important? If for no other reason, than a PR POV?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

If my argument is not credible, then my source of information is *also* not credible...in this case, the letter from Firaxis' CEO and the Civ3 website. Those are the two places I went for information. I did not base my opinion on the complaints on the boards here, but rather, stuck with information from the company's own website, and from the letter bearing the CEO's name.

-=Vel=-

[notyoueither]

Vel, I love ya buddy, but I see you doing the same as others of lesser renown have done.

Take one statement, or 10 posts, and blow them out of proportion.

What is NOT subjective....what is NOT POV-dependent is the fact....the FACT that what you got when you opened the box was a very different animal than what was described on the company's own site. Maybe you didn't care....maybe you bought it for the SP features...and if so, that's GREAT! You got your money's worth, I'd bet!

The FACT, is that I have a longish list of people with whom I can get exactly what is listed on the box.

The FACT is that there were issues with games launched or started on the full GS Arcade that others did not find because they did not use Arcade.

The FACT is that many people have been skulking around with warez versions (that are broken, and some of which are ALPHA) and complaining about it not working.

There are many FACTs. One of them is that it could have been much better, and it could still get better yet. Just please, do not buy into the totally broken and devoid of merit horse hockey. It's not. It works well enough that many people are having a lot of fun with it in both SP and MP.

[WarpStorm]

Vel, Jeff wrote that before the latest patch. The one that solved the connectivity and lag issues with the internet multiplayer component. That may have been true then (a little overblown, IMNSHO, as I was successful in playing it for quite a while), but it isn't and hasn't been true since you've started posting on this thread.

FWIW, nye has probably played more games of PTW than Jeff. It gives him a little credibility in my eyes.

[Velociryx]

Yes...but that has been my point from the beginning....I fully realize that the patch has in fact, addressed the connecitivity problems.

My point was, and remains that had it worked as advertised out of the box, then there would have been scant need of a letter by the CEO of Firaxis stating that there ARE (were) problems, and that they're working on them.

Thus....the information on the company website was not accurate at the time of release.

What I'm NOT saying is that the company isn't committed to fixing problems in the game. You guys know me better than that....I'm not here to start a mindless flame war, or get sucked into the fanboy/troll game.

I'm simply pointing out that *had the game worked as advertised* then this letter....this thread would not exist. There would be no NEED for it to exist.

Even the most ardent supporter of the game must concede at least that.

The company sold a product that did not work as advertised. Why else would they have had to release a patch fixing MP....which was the flagship piece....the most touted portion of PTW....the part, in fact, that the expansion was named after?

If it was never broken, then why fix it?

-=Vel=-

[notyoueither]

It needed improvement, Vel. It was not completely broken. Most of my list of people to get good games with was assembled before 1.14.

However, due to there being an Alpha warez version out there, and due to the snags with GameSpy, and due to the number of legitimate players who had problems, among other things no doubt, the letter from Jeff was a good move for Firaxis to do.

However, I stress that it was a combination of things that led to the mess that was the initial release period, from my POV. If I could get my hands on the jerk that leaked an Alpha I would... Grrr! That right there caused massive grief. Guaranteed crash for everyone in the game.

Then there are other warez versions that have problems. Some of the slime balls have actually had the nerve to complain that their 'disk' has errors and to ask why that file was not included. Grrr!

[Velociryx]

::nodding:: Point very well taken....and I totally agree with and sympathize with problems that a leaked or warez version of the game can cause (I know how utterly p*ssed I would be if a rogue CB version leaked out!)

But not completly broken = not completely working, yes?

-=Vel=-

[Cyclotron]

Vel, the Firaxian said there were issues, not that nobody could play the world. That's a great deal of exaggeration, don't you think?

You either made that point of view from the letter or got it from the boards, since certainly it isn't your own, not having PTW. The letter says nothing even near as damning as you do, so you either got it from the boards (not a great source for unbiased info) or you read something into the letter that is not stated directly. Nothing shouts to me that the CEO is to blame for the credibility gap in your argument.

Vel, I appreciate your comments on the game, but I think you’re going a little far here… be wary of inflating opinions or statements here to undue proportions.