Oppositions to Arabs

[Traelin]

Re: Fleeing

Originally posted by roalan
Yes civil. pop. does flee in time of war. Don't forget Israel has only about 2-3mil. people and if they allow anyone in they will soon be absorbed into the arab population. We in the US let in many other countries people, we are a large land with a hugh pop. Other countries such as England let in others but are not kindly disposed to them . Neither are many other countries. Israel is no different when trying to keep the majority as Jews, however Israel does let in all Jews from all countries in the world so they have a very god mix of people form all parts of the world. One problem is that Jews which is a religion and Israel a Nation are mixed. This does not seem to be the case in the rest of the world. It is a big conflict but I guess it extends back to bible days.
I notice in todays news the US blasted a car load of terrorists and there is not a peep of protest or call for revenge from the rest of the world. If Israel did it the UN would meet to condem them.Screems of revenge would be heard through out the land. I also see no condomnation of yeaterdays bombing of a mall in Israel or Israel threat of revenge (even though they will do it) And when it comes you will hear world leaders condem Israel and hear more screems of revenge. If Israel was as big a Turkey and had 40 Million people and some oil. The world would never say anything against Israel .

Actually Israel has a population of 6-7 million, but that's just nitpicking on my part. Your point is well taken, they are a small country with a much smaller sphere of influence (due to pop. constraints) than the U.S.

You are also correct that Israel gets lambasted for every little thing they do. The world community is ridiculous with how they hound the Israelis. Anyone that denies this is denying the facts that are staring them in the face. Even though our war on terrorism is absolutely, 100% justified, we will at the very most be frowned upon for anything we do. As the old adage goes, he with the power and gold makes the rules.

I think a lot of the world sentiment toward Israel (and, to a lesser extent, the U.S.) is driven by pro-Mideastern Muslim sentiment in Europe. Not to get off on yet another tangent, but my boss at work used to live in France. He doesn't really swing either way WRT Israel and the Palestinians, but he told me that the French govt. makes very public statements against racism. Yet -- as he put it -- you wouldn't find a government more tainted toward Israel in Europe than France. Oh well, such is life I guess.

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Traelin


Hrm, I'm ignorant on Lansky. Who was he?

Infamous Mafia "financeer" intimately involved in building the Las Vegas casino empire.

[roalan]

population

Your right 1995 pop. of Israel 5,607,900. I remember when it was 2 mil. Still not as many people as Mass.

[Ozymandias]

Re: Re: Fleeing

Originally posted by Traelin

I think a lot of the world sentiment toward Israel (and, to a lesser extent, the U.S.) is driven by pro-Mideastern Muslim sentiment in Europe. Not to get off on yet another tangent, but my boss at work used to live in France. He doesn't really swing either way WRT Israel and the Palestinians, but he told me that the French govt. makes very public statements against racism. Yet -- as he put it -- you wouldn't find a government more tainted toward Israel in Europe than France. Oh well, such is life I guess.

Having lived in, and retained close ties to Europe, IMO the overall sentiment is that VERY recent European history (like, all of the the last century!) has made Europeans, in general, wary of both hyper-nationalism and "racialism" (to use the English equivalent of the American "racism"). It is one of the great historical ironies that Jews, having suffered among the worst from these (although I wonder -- where are all the, e.g., Armenians with views about all this?) are now perceived as (to quote Bob Dylan) "Neighborhood Bullies".

Also the European view of the U.S. and Israel is that the tail too often wags the dog -- and I somehow doubt that my POV on this will change anyone's opinion ...

Any Europeans care to comment?

-Ozymandias

[roalan]

American view

If the tail waged the dog then Israel would have acted like all other countries and got rid of the Palestine problem. In Israel's case they usually cave into what the US wants. I would say that perhaps this is the first time Israel ignored the wishes of the US. When Bush ordered them out of disputed areas and actually assumed that Israel would comply. He looked a bit foolish when they didn't go. I found it hard to believe they actually stood up to the US-never thought I would see it.Any other gov. besides Sharon would have caved in. If Shrons Gov. ends in elections and a Rabin type Gov takes over then Bush will again order them out of disputed land and I bet Israel goes.

[Ozymandias]

Re: American view

Originally posted by roalan
If the tail waged the dog then Israel would have acted like all other countries and got rid of the Palestine problem

... Do you mean, "All the other countries who have engaged in 'ethnic cleansing'?"

The tail mercifully can't wag the dog quite THAT far!!!

[roalan]

Problem

No not ethnic cleansingI I did not say slaughter the people just move them out. Something like the Kurds,American Indians,Like the Europeans that like to move groups around to locations other then their own,Like the russians moving whole populations with out a sense of shame. I am just saying Israel would act no differently then anyone else is solving their problem.Like Traelin says," He with the power and the Gold makes the rules". Don't make up separate rules for Israel and automatically assume they will cleanse everything. Maybe they would maybe they wouldn;t. Depends on the mood at the time it happens.I just state a fact Israel if it could- would solve their problem just like any large and powerful country would. Take it anyway you wish. You seem to want to lean on the worse side so who knows perhaps you would be correct. We shall never know because the power is there but not allowed to be used. Whats that other saying. The road to Hell is paved with good intensions.

[Ozymandias]

Re: Problem

Originally posted by roalan
No not ethnic cleansingI I did not say slaughter the people just move them out ... Don't make up separate rules for Israel ... I just state a fact Israel if it could- would solve their problem just like any large and powerful country would.

In current, common usage -- at least since the recent Balkan Wars and the disasters in Rwanda -- "ethnic cleansing" means "forced relocation" as well as extermination.

The last "large and powerful" countries in the world to engage in this practice were totalitarian nightmares.

Last I checked, Israel belongs to the United Nations?--

The preamble to the Universal Declaration Of Human Rights begins:

"Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law ..."

Maybe a full reading would do us all some good:

http://www.hrcr.org/docs/universal_decl.html

As I quoted in an earlier post, Israel can pick any and only two out of the following three: a democratic Israel, a greater Israel, a Jewish Israel ...

... That is, without committing war crimes. And I say this without intent to be inflammatory (although I have zero hope that'll be the case) but to worry about a tragic updating of Absalom -- you know, the part where, after the unspeakable is committed, comes the lamention at the horror.

-Ozymandias

P.S. BTW with this post I have decided not to comment / respond with any more posts regarding the behavior of the modern Israeli state. It is fruitless, and fills me with sorrow.

-Oz

[Mellian]

simply saw this coming when i first saw this thread few days ago this should be moved to Off-TOpic.

in my opinion, i thik the people who complains about the Arab is being racist deep down, how sad .... as well as lazy for not taking out the civ themselves


-Mellian

[Mellian]

Re: American view

Originally posted by roalan
If the tail waged the dog then Israel would have acted like all other countries and got rid of the Palestine problem. In Israel's case they usually cave into what the US wants. I would say that perhaps this is the first time Israel ignored the wishes of the US. When Bush ordered them out of disputed areas and actually assumed that Israel would comply. He looked a bit foolish when they didn't go. I found it hard to believe they actually stood up to the US-never thought I would see it.Any other gov. besides Sharon would have caved in. If Shrons Gov. ends in elections and a Rabin type Gov takes over then Bush will again order them out of disputed land and I bet Israel goes.

I wouldn't obey Bush either, lol

-Mellian

[roalan]

Agree

I do agree with most of what you just said. So lets leave it there.GBAGL

[ThaddeusAlexander]

I would have preferred incas as well.. if only for map placement purposes!!

And I think we all know that they could not have left out the Americans if they wanted to sell the game to more people in their biggest consumer capitol, the USA (duh!) but i find that if you think of them as the american indians that lived in the current US, you get used to it Of course if you ask an american s/he'll just tell you "the US has as much impact and importance on the world today as any other civ did in history".

As for the arabs, I think they're interesting but lets not forget that they never said NO to another expansion and maybe one day everyone will be happy

Although I'm sure I'll still need to mod in the Canadians no matter what ... oh well

Cheers
~Thadalex

[Druuge]

Things seem to pretty bad in the region of Israel.

Muslims tend to be unable or unwilling to find peaceful solutions like Northern on Far-Eastern countries would.
I think that they have tilted world view as medieval Christians did towards other cultures. Especially the more isolated countries.

BTW - I do NOT understand why US oficially calls Iran to be "evil". So what, if they whip their criminals? I'd prefer some whipping to jailing, also, although it is a little "medieval". 1979?

The Jews' biggest sin seems to be Superbia - they have adopted Hitler's propaganda and they think (or SEEM to) that they are better than others. Don't they think of arabs that they are "untermenchen"? Here in the quiet corner between Baltic Sea and Russia very few (bad) people have - traditionally - ever felt repulsion towards Jews and Israel. Lately, when sionistic (its FASCISM!) propaganda has reached the press people have began to dislike this Jewish business.

This whole propaganda stuff is repulsive to Eastern Europe as whole, I think. So what if Jews were killed, they ask. Gypsies, Polish, Ukrainians were ALSO killed. Why should they have SPECIAL ceremony for Jews separately? Why.

Now comes the difficult part. To live not accusing the Jews (who are nice people - educated, they survive the hardships), Germans - (their sense of humour may not be the best but they work well, are honest and care about nature), Russians - (They may drink a little bit too much but they are very kind and they are BLOODY cost-effective researchers when compared with western ones). I as an Estonian would have 1000 reasons to hate Russians but I wonder how we have managed to live peacefully together.

I'm afraid that it is just too late for Israel and Chechnya Too much evil has become past. Today's West IS fearing the ghost of Hitler. US govt exaggerates wrong things too much - they should sign the Kyoto protocol instead...

[Chemical Ollie]

I think this debate is getting a little hot-headed and off topic.

I would like to make a post that is more on topic: In the choice between Arabs and Hebrews to be included in PtW, I think the Arabs should be the more qualified tribe. Why? Because as good as every tribe in CIV3 had some kind of prospering empire at some stage in history. Aztecs, Americans, Vikings, Indians, Russians, English, Chinese, Romans - you name them! I could only find one clear exception - Iroquis (correct me if I'm wrong).

The Hebrews had their golden age about 1000 BC. Their empire covered present-day Israel and parts of Jordan. For greater part of history, the Hebrews have been slaves to other CIV3 tribes like Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans and Germans.

The Arabs had their golden age about 700-1200 AD, with an Empire streching from Spain to Persia.

While both tribes has put their solid footprint in world history, the Arabs had a longer golden age, larger empire and larger population (still has). That would make them more qualified to be in the game.

But on other hand, I believe that more real-world Hebrews are playing the game than real-world Arabs, so thats a good reason to include the Hebrews.

Perhaps this is a meaningless discussion as I have not seen a complete list of the tribes in PtW. And the game is already released (but not yet in Sweden). Are any of the discussed tribes included?

[Cyclotron]

The Arabs and Ottomans were included in PTW. No Jewish Civ was.