Oppositions to Arabs

[gsmoove23]

Re: Israel

Originally posted by roalan
Israel occupation of What? It's own land.
How come Iraq and Turkey are somehow not occuping Kurdish lands? How come no one cares if the Kurds get a country or not is it because the world can't or won't push those guys around? What is easier then to pick on a small country with a minority of people and a land that doesn't offer much in the way of goods to the world. If Israel was as big as Turkey or Syria the world could give a s**t less abouth Palestine. Actually the Arab countries don't give a s**t about Palestine they just use it to prod Israel otherwise Syria and Jordan would not have thrown them out of there lands in the World was very silent about. The whole think is a sick joke that is costing many lives on all sides -Israel shoudl do as ALL other countries do either kick them all out or pen them up. End of war. Does that sound something like what we did to the Mexicans and Indians ???

Sorry, one more post. I wasn't attacking Israel until this post. Before that I was criticizing someone who had equated Israel to Nazi Germany. You took offence to my reference to an Israeli occupation which is a widely accepted definition of the Israeli presence in the West Bank and Gaza and since then I have only been responding to you so please don't get on my back for attacking Israel, I have been quiet on this subject for a number of pages in this thread and will be quiet again once you post something that I don't find irresistable to respond to.

[roalan]

Likewise

OK lets us agree that Gaza is not part of Israel and Israel should leave the area and that no bombing should come from Gaza against Israel.

[sabrewolf]

it is a fact, that people who actually live IN the combat region know less about the truth than people outside.

just a few examples i personally know about (there's most likely better ones, but just to show you my examples)

1) germany in WW2: the grandfather of my ex-girlfriend fough against the czechs. they were told that the czech were barbarians, killing german farmers, raping their wives and daughters, etc. now imagine that's the only news you hear during 2 years? of course he hated the czechs. only after many years the truth came through and gradually the germans realised they had fallen for the propaganda

2) serbs in the 90's. i know quite a few families who came from serbia during the war time (i also know a lot of bosnians and croatians). most of the serbs loved milosevic, because they believed he's going to save their nations against the evil UN who want to steal thei identity and give their land to the albanians from kosovo. but everyone who came to western europe saw the free press - and even though it hurt, ALL of them now admit, that milosevic was bad. again, they had fallen for the propaganda.

ok, i'll stop now, i don't feel like writing more examples. i guess you understand my point by now:
only because you were there, it doesn't mean that you know the full truth. you'll only know one side of the truth. and as gsmoove23 said: you're argumenting with 1960's propaganda.

[gsmoove23]

You are very funny, you've fallen back on this logic before in other threads. History rewritten by leftist profs or perhaps history rewritten by profs who have access to previously classified material, either way I find the old as susceptible to propaganda as the young(not to call you old since I really have no idea what age you are). I have read a few histories on the subject and while I haven't spoken with those who lived it I have read tesimonies from both sides. Often, the lies begin very early on both sides, even from the lips of those who have just experienced it. Take the irresponsible reporting on Jenin, taken from survivors.

As for people living in Israel proper, isn't it funny that palestinians can't buy land, neither can christians for the most part. They also have lower per capita government spending on their commun... yada yada yada. I'm not slipping into this again. Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza never lived in a democracy, their quality of life was equitable if not lower then that in arab countries, if arrested they are subject to military courts, it goes on.

[roalan]

History

I thought we settled this. Ask the Chineese about rewritten history.Even the UN and the leftests admitted there was no slaughter in Jenin it was a Palestine Lie and noone was slaughted no bodys. and that was only a few months ago. Propaganda does come fast now a days. Ask a Palestine who works in Israel where he would rather be earning arab$ or Israelie $. I do not need to say anything just ask them.

[gsmoove23]

Oh thank you Sabrewolf, I was worried it was only Roalan and me and I guess I'm a couple of posts behind. Roalan, its very kind of you to give me Gaza but where did the West Bank go? and how about bombs and missiles fired from Israel into Gaza, is that allowed?

Just to clarify, I wouldn't say that palestinians today are direct descendants of the phillistines, just that the Roman name Palestina probably referred to the phillistines and I'm sure although there has been a great amount of mixture and dilution there is probably some phillistine blood in the palestinians of today, as well as canannite, phoenician and probably hebrew too.

[gsmoove23]

Re: History

Originally posted by roalan
I thought we settled this. Ask the Chineese about rewritten history.Even the UN and the leftests admitted there was no slaughter in Jenin it was a Palestine Lie and noone was slaughted no bodys. and that was only a few months ago. Propaganda does come fast now a days. Ask a Palestine who works in Israel where he would rather be earning arab$ or Israelie $. I do not need to say anything just ask them.

Aaaargh, I don't know which is worse, your posts or my need to respond to them. The supposed slaughter in Jenin was what I was referring to! You see sometimes I argue both sides to get my point across. You have brought up the Chinese and Japanese issue a number of times but which side are YOU arguing. Lets bring up your arguement as an example. The Israelis asked the arab palestinians to stay and defend the Israeli nation against the arab armies. Thats right right? The arab palestinians were yellow bellied, they left, they might have stayed and defended the Jewish national home except everyone knew the arabs would win. Right? When they wanted to come back the Israelis wouldn't let them cause they didn't defend their land. Right? Now instead of just repeating this try to think it through. Does it follow any logical order? Or maybe just maybe the Israelis did some rewriting of history themselves.

[roalan]

Fact

First of all I am getting near 70 yrs. I have been around the block a few times and also did a lot of traveling with the Navy Seebees So I was in the Mid East, I have family living in Israel. My brother in fact asked as did many Israelies that the Palestine's living in Israel DEFEND YOUR HOMES-NOT ISRAEL though both come together if you defend your home. I did not get this info from a girl friend of a grandfather I got it from my own family. I am defending the Chineese and the US when the Japs try and change the facts in their text books. The Palestine people were asked to defend their home. Just like if someone attacked your home town and you were asked to fight for your house and place of work. Now if you said "I'M out of here" and then later after other people inc. Palestines stayed and died for their homes you tried to sneak back in with the whine " Can I come home now". I do not think you would be allowed back and if so I know that here in the USA you would be given a hard time just like the musilms are getting now here.( I am not saying this is OK because 99% are innocent) But if you sneak back after your countrymen died defending YOUR home I do not believe it would be allowed. Have they allowed the College students back from Canada that ran away in the Vietnam war? Maybe by know they have.( Don't get on me about Vietnam I thought it was an unjust war made for big business)
You also mention that the arabs have it tough in Israel but did you know there are Arabs in Parliment ,Israelie Gov. How many Jews or Israelis are in ANY arab gov? NONE ZIP and there never will be.

[gsmoove23]

Roalan, by 1948 there had already been a long and bloody struggle between the arab and jewish inhabitants of Palestine. An arab revolt, jewish terrorism, arab terrorism, it is obvious that arabs wouldn't feel they needed to defend their homes against arab regular armies. Here I suggest part of the practical reasons for forcing arabs from their homes that should be obvious to anyone, especially those who lived it, though perhaps some might not want to repeat it.

By 1948 it was obvious to Israeli leadership that you could not have a democratic Israel and a Jewish Israel because of the troubling fact that their simply weren't as many Jews in the region as arabs. The idea of population transfer had been addressed in earlier attempts at agreements and was seen as the only way to have a jewish Israel by most of the Israeli leadership. The massacre at Deir Yassin was highly publicized at the time to strike fear into arab hearts with the hope of coercing them to flee. This was by no means the policy of the entirety of Israeli leadership but more radical elements. In the same vein, jewish residents in endangered communities were asked by their leadership to stay in their homes no matter what because the policy of refusing the return of refugees was already envisaged. No doubt many jews did flee as is natural in a war, especially women worried for their children but they were certainly not refused entry when they returned because simply stated any jew can always return to Israel, regardless of whether they are yellow bellied or not.

[gsmoove23]

Its a good thing that this is the internet and I can't verify your age. Be assured if I knew without a doubt I was speaking to a 70 year old I'd be showing them a good deal more respect then I might be showing you and probably not even getting into this conversation, yet this is the internet and issues like these are neutralized I guess. While I respect that you've been around the block I can't respect your opinions.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by gsmoove23


Have you been reading this thread Caliban? This is the post you would respond to?

Traelin, I agree with you here, though maybe not for the same reasons. Nazism was seriously bad, I mean really really bad, I mean it was so bad... do I really have to continue here? I think its pretty irresponsible to throw around comparisons like that especially since its just not at all true. Certain aspects of Israeli occupation might resemble certain aspects of Nazi occupation but the limited comparison ends there and in no way does Israel near the barbarity of that regime.

Well it appears we actually agree for once!

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
[They] were certainly not refused entry when they returned because simply stated any jew can always return to Israel, regardless of whether they are yellow bellied or not.

Not nitpicking but historical trivia -- the infamous American gangster Meyer Lansky was, I believe, the only Jew ever denied the "Right Of Return".

-Oz

[Traelin]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
My arguement was, Israel is arguably the US's closest ally,

I'm gonna stay away from the whole Israeli/Palestinian debate, because I've been down that path before and I think you all know how I feel.

But I can't see a really good argument claiming that Israel is our closest ally. I think Great Britain is hands down our closest ally. We're connected at the hip and have been since WW2. Canada and Australia would be tied for second IMHO. Israel would possibly be next, but I'm even sure I'd put them above Japan.

EDIT: But to make myself clear, I certainly am not trying to downplay how close Israel and the U.S. are. I personally value Israel over most of our allies. I personally value them over Japan, but that's another discussion.

However, I personally value Britain's friendship over everyone else's by far, and for so many reasons. The Who, anyone? Just kidding of course, although I do love their music.

[roalan]

Fleeing

Yes civil. pop. does flee in time of war. Don't forget Israel has only about 2-3mil. people and if they allow anyone in they will soon be absorbed into the arab population. We in the US let in many other countries people, we are a large land with a hugh pop. Other countries such as England let in others but are not kindly disposed to them . Neither are many other countries. Israel is no different when trying to keep the majority as Jews, however Israel does let in all Jews from all countries in the world so they have a very god mix of people form all parts of the world. One problem is that Jews which is a religion and Israel a Nation are mixed. This does not seem to be the case in the rest of the world. It is a big conflict but I guess it extends back to bible days.
I notice in todays news the US blasted a car load of terrorists and there is not a peep of protest or call for revenge from the rest of the world. If Israel did it the UN would meet to condem them.Screems of revenge would be heard through out the land. I also see no condomnation of yeaterdays bombing of a mall in Israel or Israel threat of revenge (even though they will do it) And when it comes you will hear world leaders condem Israel and hear more screems of revenge. If Israel was as big a Turkey and had 40 Million people and some oil. The world would never say anything against Israel .

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Ozymandias


Not nitpicking but historical trivia -- the infamous American gangster Meyer Lansky was, I believe, the only Jew ever denied the "Right Of Return".

-Oz

Hrm, I'm ignorant on Lansky. Who was he?