If real life were Civ3, who'd have the highest end score?

[Ninot]

The guantlet had been thrown, and my response was imminent (if cowardly delayed until Ninot was no longer involved in the thread). Now let us hope that my lack of communication skills and spelling doesn't prove Ninot right...

I wasn't out, i just didn't have the motivation to cheer for Rome no more. I admitt my defeat, Rome is not the heir to the IRL civ3 throne .

Now, an interesting new view has come to attention....
What if we use modern china as the example? Do they win?
Well, can China's population truly be taken into their score?

I don't exactly know. Up untill this century, not a whole of of Chinese people could really be considered "speacialist". Too much of the population was into agriculture to do that. And could they all be considered "happy"? or are they merely content?... i dunnno.... i dont think the population matters as much as you might think, personally....

As for teritory and power, I would put England ahead of modern china. from the Elizabethan era till the end of world war 2, it can be argued that England was the strongest nation in the world. It had major control over good parts of Africa, North America (well... USA up untill the revolution), India... and probably some other parts. And its not like they didn't have an influence either. There are reasons why Ghandi spoke english. Even teritories England has pulled out of still speak english to some degree.
Did they keep the people happy? i dont know about that. But they had so much territory, i think the points might add up for the last millenia of the game.

[TheDarkCavalier]

Hello!

Hmm... I REALLY dunno if any "states" of England were happy...

But think about SPACE VICTORY... RUSSIA...
CULTURAL ... well.... to some degree, Rome, but NOT China
DIPLOMATIC ... hm, dunno.
CONQUEST ... ROME! nothing was left, just the Barbarians, everything else was ... ahem... civilised...
DOMINATION ... probably Rome (the city)...

even if Rome was destroyed, it still left a hueg impact on our world...

so ROME da WINNER!

[nato]

And, by the subject of the thread, this is by Civ 3 rules. By those Rules, Mongolia had China defeated. Sure, it didn't last, but it was fact, and complete.

So, i submitt that China's total score be stopped by the year that Kublai Khan finnaly had total control over China. So sayeth the rules of Civ3

Well I still would say it is a culture flip situation, but I can agree to see it as the end of the original Chinese. In that case, as has been pointed out, we have two "Chinese" civs, the ancient and the modern.

Here is one funny fact I was told to give an idea about modern China's population. They are still overwhelmingly rural, like near 80% I think. However, that still gives them more city dwellers than the entire population of the US!

If population counts more than anything else, like Aeson is saying, than its either China or India obviously, with no room for discussion. If China is split in two, then I guess it goes something like:

1. India
2. Ancient China
3. Modern China

Population being overwhelming turns it into a pretty simple stat contest. I guess to be really interesting you would have to either tone down the population bonus or go to a "Top 5" or "Top 10" list.

Wow Aeson good analysis with the tile counting! That must have been a lot of work. Same with NYE's Rome discussion.

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by nato


Well I still would say it is a culture flip situation, but I can agree to see it as the end of the original Chinese. In that case, as has been pointed out, we have two "Chinese" civs, the ancient and the modern.

Here is one funny fact I was told to give an idea about modern China's population. They are still overwhelmingly rural, like near 80% I think. However, that still gives them more city dwellers than the entire population of the US!

If population counts more than anything else, like Aeson is saying, than its either China or India obviously, with no room for discussion. If China is split in two, then I guess it goes something like:

1. India
2. Ancient China
3. Modern China

Population being overwhelming turns it into a pretty simple stat contest. I guess to be really interesting you would have to either tone down the population bonus or go to a "Top 5" or "Top 10" list.

Wow Aeson good analysis with the tile counting! That must have been a lot of work. Same with NYE's Rome discussion.

Hmmm, if population and geographical area are the two biggest factors for score, then the USA should be right up top of that list, consider: the USA is the 3rd most populous nation on earth, and covers the 5th (or 4th, depending) most area.

By contrast, Russia (most land area) has half the population, and Canada (second most land area) has about 1/9th the population. China (most population) has about the same size (and thus should be ahead of the USA) and india (second most pop) is quite a bit smaller, so it is a toss up.

Brazil isn't a "civ", but if it were, it would be a bit under the US, given that it has the 4th largest land area, and about half the population...

Of course, none of this counts culture, which is a debate in and of itself...

[nato]

I think Aeson was saying that land area didn't count much, it was mostly population.

I did indeed consider the US for 4th based on population. However, although the US is solidly in third place now (after the two big guys) it still hasn't been around for long, so I'm not sure how high it would rank.

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by nato
I think Aeson was saying that land area didn't count much, it was mostly population.

I did indeed consider the US for 4th based on population. However, although the US is solidly in third place now (after the two big guys) it still hasn't been around for long, so I'm not sure how high it would rank.

Hmmm, I think I would put the US high on the cultural meter *holds up hand* The US is one of the most religious nations on earth, and every city has at least half a dozen churches, and most cities have cathedrals of one type or another. The US has many great wonders, and quite a few small ones. Liberaries in any town that would be considered pop. 1 in Civ, Theaters, sports arena's, etc. This is all evidenced by the fact that the US's cultural boarders _are_ expanding. If culture counts for much, then the US should be bumped up that list...

[Thrawn05]

Talk to me when (or if ) we make it to the year 2050.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Andrew Cory


Hmmm, I think I would put the US high on the cultural meter *holds up hand* The US is one of the most religious nations on earth, and every city has at least half a dozen churches, and most cities have cathedrals of one type or another. The US has many great wonders, and quite a few small ones. Liberaries in any town that would be considered pop. 1 in Civ, Theaters, sports arena's, etc. This is all evidenced by the fact that the US's cultural boarders _are_ expanding. If culture counts for much, then the US should be bumped up that list...

I have a library? Where!?!

Anyway, the US is not very religious, if you look at some of these "modern" churchs and those in most european nations. Besides, as far as catholics are concerned, the nation with the most practicing catholics is Ireland (80%), compared to the US where on a Easter and/or Xmas, makes it to 30%. Don't get me started with the PC mentality of the universities and schools.

[Kensan]

China wins under Civ 3 scoring system

The case for China:

As has been stated before, China under the scoring system of Civ 3 wins due to having the most population, largest land mass and most total "culture points" over the entire span of the game so far. As for critics who say China is eliminated due to Mongol invasions, I can only say that China was never completely conquered. In fact, at that point in the "game" you could argue that all Chinese cities revolted and flipped back to Chinese rule in one turn.

Let me further point out that China has had an absolute enormous impact on the course of human history as well. One of most important "advances" in human history was the invention of paper by Tsai Lun. It forever altered human retention of knowledge and led to the masses being educated and literate. The formula he used to create paper was so good that it has remained virtually unchanged to present day, 1800 years later. Christianity would not have been the break-through religion it was had it not been for Bibles being printed using PAPER. Gutenberg mass-produced them because of a Chinese idea.

I could go on about Chinese advances in medicine, science, astronomy, magnetism, animal husbandry and many more that equaled or were superior to anything currently known in the world up to the 1600's.

For those in the Roman camp, yes I agree the empire of Rome racked up a lot of points. However, you seem to ascribe a lot of tribute points to yourselves for successes of completely different "civilizations". Yes there are several derivative languages in use today that come from Latin as well as political forms of government and representation. But if you are going to use that as the basis for your win, then you are mistaken.

I'll point out that the world as we know it was changed forever by Isaac Newton. Because of his studies into physics, light waves, astronomy and mathematics, everything that has been done over the last 500 years can damn near be attributed to him alone. His ideas were revolutionary and probably would not have even occured if it weren't for him. Industrialization took place because of the application of his theories. And I would not call Newton remotely Roman. And I'll take my modern tank versus your legionaire in this "Real Life" challenge, thank you very much.

Therefore, as the majority of the forum has concluded: China wins.....for now. We obviously have several "game turns" left.

FYI, I am a white male American, and I would love to give the USA a vote of confidence but the "scoring system" just wouldn't allow it due to lack of time as a viable civilization.

[Andrew Cory]

Originally posted by Thrawn05
I have a library? Where!?!

Well, how big is your city? 1 pop. point = 100,000 people, right? is your city 100,000 people strong?

Originally posted by Thrawn05
Anyway, the US is not very religious, if you look at some of these "modern" churchs and those in most european nations.

I don't know what anything after the comma means, and the first part of the sentance is flatly untrue. in poll after poll, 80% of the population says they belive in a devine being. It is true that the nation is less _christian_ than we used to be, but this does not mean less _religious_.

Originally posted by Thrawn05
Besides, as far as catholics are concerned, the nation with the most practicing catholics is Ireland (80%), compared to the US where on a Easter and/or Xmas, makes it to 30%. Don't get me started with the PC mentality of the universities and schools.

I am a bit curious how this is relevent. It doesn't matter how PC univeristies and schools are, or how many practicing catholics there are, the fact is that America is one of the most religous nations on the planet. I am _shocked_ that they were not given this atribute in the game...

[notyoueither]

Re: China wins under Civ 3 scoring system

Originally posted by Kensan
I'll point out that the world as we know it was changed forever by Isaac Newton. Because of his studies into physics, light waves, astronomy and mathematics, everything that has been done over the last 500 years can damn near be attributed to him alone. His ideas were revolutionary and probably would not have even occured if it weren't for him. Industrialization took place because of the application of his theories. And I would not call Newton remotely Roman. And I'll take my modern tank versus your legionaire in this "Real Life" challenge, thank you very much.

Yes, yes, we all know that most everybody is equating togas and Legions with Rome. No togas, no Legions, Rome must be gone...

*Principia Mathematica* was written in which language? He used the observations of which Astronomers? As Newton himself said *standing on the shoulders of giants* or something like that.

Here's a question for all the China voters out there. Suppose that Taiwan builds some modern wonder of the world, something like the *Truely Human AI Computer* (very feasable that the Taiwanese would do this first). Would you rack these points up for China?

Salve

[TheDarkCavalier]

As I said, RUSSIA or ROME would win, but even if Taiwan made a Human AI, that wouldn't change... much.... they'd still lose by everything else.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Andrew Cory
Well, how big is your city? 1 pop. point = 100,000 people, right? is your city 100,000 people strong?

Try 50,000.

Originally posted by Andrew Cory
I don't know what anything after the comma means, and the first part of the sentance is flatly untrue. in poll after poll, 80% of the population says they belive in a devine being. It is true that the nation is less _christian_ than we used to be, but this does not mean less _religious_.

For the first part, modern church are those which look more like a convention hall then a church. Take a trip to spain and goto some of the poorest towns (the ones with no paved roads) and see the church that would put St. Patrick's in NYC to shame (believe me, I saw it, wooooooooooooooooow).

Second part, every country has that amount, the question is, do they practice what they believe in?

Originally posted by Andrew Cory
I am a bit curious how this is relevent. It doesn't matter how PC univeristies and schools are, or how many practicing catholics there are, the fact is that America is one of the most religous nations on the planet. I am _shocked_ that they were not given this atribute in the game...

Uh- em, let me get started.
1: Saying Merry Xmas can get you kicked out
2: Wearing a cross/crusifix is against University policy
3: No latin classes (it was deemed, religous, WTF?)
4: Saying God bless you when someone snezzes is offensive to a lot people at my university
5: The only religous thing the school newspaper talks about to no end now is Islam. Mmmmmmmmm, I wonder why?
6: I went to class with ashes on my forhead on Ash wendsday, and the teacher threw me out, it was offesive.
7: Majority of the students are athiests.

If I think a little harder, I can come up with some more.

[Aeson]

While most Americans do belong to a religion of one type or another, the lifestyle and culture in the US is not dictated by religion for most. Compare the US to many Muslim countries where religion is "law" and we don't come off as a very religious people. For a lot of US history this wasn't the case, but even at the height of American religious zeal, we never had a "Holy War" or state religion. This is a good thing, but it does suggest that religion is not one of the main motivations or attributes of American culture.

Most ancient civilizations had very strong religious influences in their everyday life. From a state sponsered religion, to leaders who were considered gods in that religion. Those who believed differently were the enemy. In cases when there was a measure of religious freedom, it was still required that the official gods of state be worshipped, alongside personally chosen deities.

The way the religious attribute works in Civ3 seems to denote a strong central religion which was the motivation behind much of the activity in the country. A unified religion helps keep the country together when changing governments for instance. If the US were to go into revolution, I can only see the different religious viewpoints further hindering a reunited government. Religious freedom in the US has led to a very diverse set of beliefs held by many different groups.

I personally think that Scientific and Commercial would be the best traits to attribute to the Americans. Perhaps even Commercial and Commercial if current culture is the deciding factor. A nation with as high a percentage of overweight people and escalators as we have should never be considered industrious.

[Aeson]

Re: Re: China wins under Civ 3 scoring system

Originally posted by notyoueither
As Newton himself said *standing on the shoulders of giants* or something like that.

Every culture (and individual) relies on ideas and discoveries that have come before it. Tracing back to the initial circumstance or action that all human accomplishment is derived from, we'd have to say that everything is from nature or a divine being, depending on belief system. If every human had to start from scratch, it would be rare anyone would get past the "what to eat and how to get it" discovery in their lifetime.

Here's a question for all the China voters out there. Suppose that Taiwan builds some modern wonder of the world, something like the *Truely Human AI Computer* (very feasable that the Taiwanese would do this first). Would you rack these points up for China?

Four things count towards Civ3 scoring. Population, Territory, Difficulty level, and Future Technologies. Future Technologies are almost worthless in a scoring sense, and actually diminish Population scores because commerce is diverted into science instead of entertainment. Wonders of the world can only indirectly affect score. In Civ3 terms, only the score of the Civ who discovers a cure for cancer will be helped by any yet to be built wonders. The effect even then would be negligible on final score, at most adding 1 point per turn per city.

If someone ever does come up with a truely human AI, I fully expect the AI civilization to win by conquest within a couple years. Imagine all the power we give computers today (nuclear weapons, power grids, traffic control, air control, surveilance, communication) being used for a single entity's selfish (this is the main human trait) gain.