two months have passed, and we have no idea when next patch will be released

[Kiltdown]

The lack of business acumen in some board posters no longer surprises me

But it still frustrates me. (I know, I know, who cares??!?) Sometimes its because the posters haven't spent enough time out of the nest yet. A lot of times people are old enough to know better.

1) Programmers are not permitted to say official things about anything a company is going to do. They *might* get away with announcing that the company is cool.

2) Companies will not commit to release contents if they aren't certain they can deliver. Even then, sometimes they end up being wrong. They do everything they "can" to avoid disappointing any of their customers. Sometimes they still do, even intentionally, because they are a business.

3) Businesses can't survive without customers AND profits. Making customers happy sometimes involves reducing profits, putting company existance at risk. Trying to stay afloat sometimes invovles cutting corners, putting customer relationships at risk. The real world rarely allows a company to maximise both customer satisfaction and profit. Sometimes there's not enough of either available and a company folds.

4) Small young companies in particular are filled with people who generally bust their butts to make something they hope someone else will enjoy. Without their sacrifices, consumers would not see their products. IMHO, they deserve both reward and respect. At a minimum they deserve politeness. They don't deserve whining, egomaniacal children.

5) I haven't met a piece of software I haven't felt I could improve dramatically, and I never expect to. Even with the best design process, sometimes one can't see the best "next thing" until one finishes. This tends to make for delay after delay. Eventually product must be shipped. Eventually developers have to go onto the next thing. There's always a bigger "to-do" or "could-do" list than there is time to complete it.


If you've got this far, you're probably more bored right now than I am! Thanks for listening. :-)

[FrantzX]

Hey Dan! How many times do you thing you'll have to post the same thing on the forum before people stop asking the same damn question?

[Bilas]

Originally posted by Grumbold


I hope you get the go-ahead soon, Dan. It sends out a pretty negative message if it appears that the developers can't be bothered to update their own website. If there's nothing to feature in the news section at least having regular 'Ask the Civ Team' updates gives the impression that there are plenty of fans still playing and Firaxians willing to take an hour or two out of their friday afternoon schedule to assist them.

I could not agree with you more! Just a few notes from the devs, Updates ect..
and please don't say once again that they have no time in there busy schedule to say a few words and do some updating on there released game that we all bought! I am sure they are working to get the patch out, MP, EX-Pack, but a little PR would go a long way in calming everyone down. It seems to me that they are taking the approach of "This is the way it is we don't talk and we are not going to change!" Hmm Wan't the game released already and shouldn't tey talk about there product and it's future?

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by MarkG




please tell me how you call someone who asks a question, gets an answer, and then asks again demanding a different answer

Simple, either the question wasn't answered to begin with, or the answer had nothing to do with the question - in this case vague snide remarks. But Dan said he doesn't have the authority to answer those questions, and I'm pretty sure it gets even more anal as we climb higher on the Firaxis heirarchy, so there's no point in asking anymore. I'll just have to treat Firaxis game development like Area-51 in the nevada desert.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Lack of concern for the product and its future

Originally posted by Kiltdown
3) Businesses can't survive without customers AND profits. Making customers happy sometimes involves reducing profits, putting company existance at risk. Trying to stay afloat sometimes invovles cutting corners, putting customer relationships at risk. The real world rarely allows a company to maximise both customer satisfaction and profit. Sometimes there's not enough of either available and a company folds.

4) Small young companies in particular are filled with people who generally bust their butts to make something they hope someone else will enjoy. Without their sacrifices, consumers would not see their products. IMHO, they deserve both reward and respect. At a minimum they deserve politeness. They don't deserve whining, egomaniacal children.

5) I haven't met a piece of software I haven't felt I could improve dramatically, and I never expect to. Even with the best design process, sometimes one can't see the best "next thing" until one finishes. This tends to make for delay after delay. Eventually product must be shipped. Eventually developers have to go onto the next thing. There's always a bigger "to-do" or "could-do" list than there is time to complete it.


If you've got this far, you're probably more bored right now than I am! Thanks for listening. :-)

Kiltdown - we all know what it's like on the business end of things, I'm sure at one time or another everyone's dealt with customers and handled complaints in a business. I agree that in business there are often sarcrifices - sometimes sacrifices that will upset the consumers, and that it must be done to acheive a profitable goal.

But I think your avoiding the point, thousands of fans still have no idea whats going on other than 'a patch is in the making'. We still have no idea where our effots and suggestions are being spent and devoted or even if they are being used at all. We still have no idea what their future plans for Civ3 are, which I feel is the main frustration among fellow fans. As I said to Dan before, we too are concerned with the future of Civilization (TM) why shouldn't we raise a little concern every now and then. Especially if we feel that it's not being taken care of.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Bilas


I could not agree with you more! Just a few notes from the devs, Updates ect..
and please don't say once again that they have no time in there busy schedule to say a few words and do some updating on there released game that we all bought! I am sure they are working to get the patch out, MP, EX-Pack, but a little PR would go a long way in calming everyone down. It seems to me that they are taking the approach of "This is the way it is we don't talk and we are not going to change!" Hmm Wan't the game released already and shouldn't tey talk about there product and it's future?

Dan doesn't have the authority to release information, you'll have to go higher up on the chain of command - try Jeff or even Sid (cough) like that'll ever happen, but you can try. Good luck Bilas.

Charles.

[jackshot]

Re: The lack of business acumen in some board posters no longer surprises me

Originally posted by Kiltdown
But it still frustrates me. (I know, I know, who cares??!?) Sometimes its because the posters haven't spent enough time out of the nest yet. A lot of times people are old enough to know better.

Now you're the one who should grow up. Obviously you are working from a too-traditional POV. It is the way the world is, customers are a herd of cats, you can't expect them to be policed by themselves. Firaxis (and Infogrames as well, where are they?) should know, or have a reasonable expectation, what will happen when they release a product. And these expectations are part of the business climate for that release.

They can ostrich it, as they have, and that strategy has downsides, as we have seen. What they should have done is been up front about their plans all along - plenty of companies release game and say an editor or something will be included later, don't hand me this stuff. Just from a business POV, it very curious they did not do this - makes me think the whole arrangement is dysfunctional somehow - and although Firaxis may bring some deficiencies to the table, I suspect there is more here than meets the eye. Non-market forces.

But this is also so much water under the bridge at this point. Once again, the world is how the world is. My point to CharlesUFarley is that given what they have done so far, Firaxis cannot help themselves with individual commitments of time to Charles or anyone else with a loud voice. Their appearances here tell us they have not packed it in, that is all the message they need.

But in the end, all roads lead to an editor. It fixes everything, people who like the game still have the game, those that don't get to play with variables and set ups. It gets buzz going for xpacks or whatever they would like to do. Obviously they don't want to just shift eveyone from complaining about the lacking editor to complaining about the buggy editor - but it's been three months now developing what should have already been halfway built in the design process. Not to rush them, but the clock is starting to tick. People get bored, attention dissipates. At this point in their development they can't even say an editor will be released - firm, hardcore commitment to this product is the dog that hasn't barked the entire history of the project.

You deal with the public well, you build up good will. This goodwill can buy you chits, get out of jail free cards. Firaxis has used a chit. As things are today, their next release will have to be a what this was not, a polished and innovative design (without a civ franchise to provide the foundation), or they will be out of business. And that can a thin line to hang mortgages on. It does not have to be this way. They can improve this title and buy back the chit, because once people are satisfied the complaining is so many deleted threads.

Such an obvious path must have a very curious roadblock, is all I can say.

1) Programmers are not permitted to say official things about anything a company is going to do. They *might* get away with announcing that the company is cool.

Planning. They know the parameters. Make it work, it's free.

2) Companies will not commit to release contents if they aren't certain they can deliver. Even then, sometimes they end up being wrong. They do everything they "can" to avoid disappointing any of their customers. Sometimes they still do, even intentionally, because they are a business.

They aren't certain they can make an editor for their game in three months? Curious.

3) Businesses can't survive without customers AND profits. Making customers happy sometimes involves reducing profits, putting company existance at risk. Trying to stay afloat sometimes invovles cutting corners, putting customer relationships at risk. The real world rarely allows a company to maximise both customer satisfaction and profit. Sometimes there's not enough of either available and a company folds.

Yes, yes, this was all true on day 1 of their project. What did anyone realistically intend to do about it?

4) Small young companies in particular are filled with people who generally bust their butts to make something they hope someone else will enjoy. Without their sacrifices, consumers would not see their products. IMHO, they deserve both reward and respect. At a minimum they deserve politeness. They don't deserve whining, egomaniacal children.

Exactly. Why I got into this thread in the first place. But no public forum can be expected to restrain itself, companies need hard skins. There are ways to make the whiners work for you, but once again, all roads lead to the product.

5) I haven't met a piece of software I haven't felt I could improve dramatically, and I never expect to. Even with the best design process, sometimes one can't see the best "next thing" until one finishes. This tends to make for delay after delay. Eventually product must be shipped. Eventually developers have to go onto the next thing. There's always a bigger "to-do" or "could-do" list than there is time to complete it.

Solve this problem and you'll make a mint selling games. Don't solve it and you won't.

[Kiltdown]

Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


Kiltdown - we all know what it's like on the business end of things, I'm sure at one time or another everyone's dealt with customers and handled complaints in a business. I agree that in business there are often sarcrifices - sometimes sacrifices that will upset the consumers, and that it must be done to acheive a profitable goal.

But I think your avoiding the point, thousands of fans still have no idea whats going on other than 'a patch is in the making'. We still have no idea where our effots and suggestions are being spent and devoted or even if they are being used at all. We still have no idea what their future plans for Civ3 are, which I feel is the main frustration among fellow fans. As I said to Dan before, we too are concerned with the future of Civilization (TM) why shouldn't we raise a little concern every now and then. Especially if we feel that it's not being taken care of.

Charles.

You actually know a lot Charles. :-)

You know that your suggestions are being read by Firaxis.
You know that there will be a patch.
You know the patch won't fix everything or enhance everything.
You know that you can either play it as it is for now, or wait until the patch comes out before deciding whether to play it again. You can choose to despise them more then, too, if the patch warrants it in your mind. ;-)

I'm sure Firaxis has a target, both in terms of release date and contents. That doesn't actually mean they KNOW it will be released then, or with those contents. All they may know is that they can't release until all outstanding real bugs (however they define that) have been fixed (to avoid the need for a 1.18), and that they will squeeze in whatever enhancements they can prove won't destabilize the 1.17 release.

Would you rather have them say "we plan to release it Feb 13th with the following changes" and then not deliver on the date, or with those changes? My experience on boards like this is that customers tend to go ballistic over missed dates and undelivered content. What's yours?

[jackshot]

Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future

Originally posted by Kiltdown

Would you rather have them say "we plan to release it Feb 13th with the following changes" and then not deliver on the date, or with those changes? My experience on boards like this is that customers tend to go ballistic over missed dates and undelivered content. What's yours?

No, I expect them to say an editor WILL be released. That's it. That they can't is curious.

[Kiltdown]

I've used a Civ3 editor

Originally posted by jackshot


No, I expect them to say an editor WILL be released. That's it. That they can't is curious.

Do you mean a "new" editor? One with different features? You can change units, improvements, maps, etc. right now can't you? I've been able to. If I were Firaxian, I wouldn't know how to respond to your request!

[MarkG]

Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future

Originally posted by jackshot
No, I expect them to say an editor WILL be released. That's it. That they can't is curious.

actually, that has already be done....

[jackshot]

Re: I've used a Civ3 editor

Originally posted by Kiltdown


Do you mean a "new" editor? One with different features? You can change units, improvements, maps, etc. right now can't you? I've been able to. If I were Firaxian, I wouldn't know how to respond to your request!

With quality assurance, kiltdown. It's a simple game.

[CharlesUFarley]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future

Originally posted by MarkG
actually, that has already be done....

(ahem) point me to the thread Mark...

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future

Originally posted by Kiltdown

You actually know a lot Charles. :-)

You know that your suggestions are being read by Firaxis.

yes.

You know that there will be a patch.

yes.

You know the patch won't fix everything or enhance everything.

I know nothing about the patch, or it's contents - do you? Point me to the thread, because I haven't seen a single detail.

You know that you can either play it as it is for now, or wait until
the patch comes out before deciding whether to play it again. You can choose to despise them more then, too, if the patch warrants it in your mind. ;-)

Obviously.

I'm sure Firaxis has a target, both in terms of release date and contents. That doesn't actually mean they KNOW it will be released then, or with those contents. All they may know is that they can't release until all outstanding real bugs (however they define that) have been fixed (to avoid the need for a 1.18), and that they will squeeze in whatever enhancements they can prove won't destabilize the 1.17 release.

Agreed. But the consumer still (IMO) deserves to know "WHAT" is being developed. We know there is a patch coming, but "WHAT" will be in it? Thats the point.

Would you rather have them say "we plan to release it Feb 13th with the following changes" and then not deliver on the date, or with those changes? My experience on boards like this is that customers tend to go ballistic over missed dates and undelivered content. What's yours?

Have you been talking to someone else about "dates" and "timetables" because I don't remember saying anything about dates in any of my posts! Frankly, I don't care when they release it - I just want to know "WHAT" they are releasing.

Consumer: What are you guys working on now?

Firaxis Rep: A patch.

Consumer: What will be in the patch?

Firaxis Rep: Stuff.

Consumer: We know that! But WHAT will it contain?

Firaxis Rep: Helpfull stuff.

Consumer: Look your being unreasonable, we all know the patch will help, but for the last time - WHATS IN THE PATCH?

Firaxis Rep: Gee Regis can I phone a friend.

Consumer: C'mon whats in the patch?

Firaxis Rep: No comment.



Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Re: I've used a Civ3 editor

Originally posted by Kiltdown


Do you mean a "new" editor? One with different features? You can change units, improvements, maps, etc. right now can't you? I've been able to. If I were Firaxian, I wouldn't know how to respond to your request!

You know exactly what we're talking about, unless you've been snoozing through all these posts! We're asking for an editor with complete and full customization of the following; Units, Improvements, Maps, Wonders, Terrain tiles, events, sounds and that means altering the animations, graphics and statistics of each and every facet in the game - Civ2 is an excellent example.

And with all that we should finally be able to do something that you can't do right now, is build a proper scenario.

Charles.