v1.16f: Issues? Bugs? This is the thread

[Pythagoras]

Re: Re: v1.16f: Issues? Bugs? This is the thread

Originally posted by PN


Excuse me, I only just noticed this highlihted in italics piece at the top of the thread.

Is this readme that tells us what the fixes are? YOU want US to tell you whether they really have been fixed? So what did your testers do before it was released? How much do you pay them? Please can we have a percentage for doing at least part of their job for them?

When are you going to turn this around and stop information gathering to tell us what you (Firaxis) are now acknowledging as new bugs, old bugs that weren't really fixed, and stability problems?

I think that you also ought to know that the support at your publisher (Infogrames) has not even acknowledged my fault reports through their web site. Not even an auto-acknowledgement. Either the site is broken which means you're losing valuable information, overloaded so maybe my fault report never reached them (also a problem for you losing information), or they are just plain ignoring fault reports.

Yeah Firaxis just happens to be able to test civ3 on every windows platform with every concievable hardware combination and id all conflicts. The idea here is that bugs crop up a lot due to a lot of different reasons having to do with the specifics of peoples computers. Its hard for people to anticipate these things. Its not like developing for the playstation, where every console is virtually identical with not a lot of modification. In the PC world you got every concievable user from someone's mom running ghetto win 95 to joe-blow running XP which he's h@x0r3d and massively overclocked every thing posible. You gotta support all ends of the spectrum.

[gamma]

Pollution bug

In the game I'm currently playing, when a square is polluted, the food and shields (and commerce too, I assume, though I haven't checked that) aren't deducted from what my city produces. If I then clean up that square and put a citizen back to work on it, I end up with a city making more food, shields, and commerce than it ought to. For instance, if I turn all my citizens into entertainers in the city screen, the city will say it's producing 6 food and 3 shields, even though it's built on plain grassland.

The discrepancy seems to go away if I save and reload the game.

I'm playing without the patch, but I haven't seen this bug address in the listed patch fixes on www.civ3.com. Is it fixed?

[Tall_Walt]

Upgrades (was Re: RTFM please + ideas)

Originally posted by dconner


Right, I was aware of that. The problem, however, is that Shift-U only upgrades the units if they're in a city with a Barracks, Harbor, or Airport (depending on unit type, of course.) So in the case of Fighters, Shift-U only upgrades the ones that happen to be in a city with an Airport at the time; the others have to be moved to an Airport first.

Incidentally, that'd be another nice addition - if you could do an "Upgrade All" Shift-U like command on the Military Advisor page itself.

I'll cast my vote towards easy of use over "realism". It's more than a little bizarre that you can build, say, a rifleman in a city where you can't upgrade a unit to rifleman because it doesn't have a barracks. If you can build it, you should be able to upgrade it. After all you're just upgrading the hardware, the troops are still experienced. If you've really got a city that's cut off, ok, but requiring players to shuffle units through barracks or build barracks just to upgrade units is a waste of playing time. I think allowing such upgrades would be realistic. And this is a game: the question always is, "Is this fun?" Micromanaging shuffling units around to do upgrades isn't. IMHO, of course.

As far as upgrading units in the field, SMACX was perhaps a bit too loose about it, yet I'd like to see some convenient way of doing such upgrades. A possiblity is to allow upgrades (losing a turn, unlike SMACX) as long as a unit has a supply path to a friendly city. Given the time scale of the game (which is wildly inconsistent, of course) it seems reasonable that a new unit would come out to replace the old unit and the old unit would go to the city to be upgraded in a time insignificant in the scale of game turns.

[Raion]

Yes, I am happy to report that by putting the 'Refresh' in the Civ3.Ini file with 75Hz whereas Windows always makes it 120Hz, that now the opening movie is not locking up with the sound and the 'Sound' is now working!

I had fixed IE5.5 and updated some critical package and fonts go bad in IE5.5 that affect the games opening menu screen, but by uninstalling Civ III and reinstalling Civ III and (I guess) fixing IE5.5 (whether that has anything to do with it) everything is working now since the 1.16f later patch version was also re-installed.

Now on to the gameplay issues, and perhaps, it not as bad as some people think it is!

Civ III is a different animal, but what kind of animal do you want on your computer!

I will also play with the "WIN" options of the game, because the computer should be more aggressive if all the "WIN" options are on, and by default they are.
So if I can not handle the military win option or the 2/3 territory domination win option, I will turn them "OFF".

Later and have some fun, because a game finally came out,
and CIVILIZATION III is 'only a computer game'.

It took me a while to get up to King level in CIV II, but still I never usually played (probably none) with the 'Bloodlust' win option on.
So, check the 'Win' conditions for the type of game you want to play with CIV III.

Bye-e!

[Bad Ax]

Re: Upgrades (was Re: RTFM please + ideas)

Originally posted by Tall_Walt

It's more than a little bizarre that you can build, say, a rifleman in a city where you can't upgrade a unit to rifleman because it doesn't have a barracks. If you can build it, you should be able to upgrade it.

I think the next patch should include a change such that a unit can upgrade in a city without a barracks, but it becomes either a conscript or a regular troop, regardless of its previous level. So

Elite -> Regular
Veteran -> Regular
Regular -> Conscript
Conscript -> Conscript

This seems like it would realistically portray the soldiers' unfamiliarity with their new weapons. In gameplay terms, it improves the upgrade system while still leaving an incentive to build barracks in all or most cities.

[Raion]

No, I am still having problems with the game. A few marks were on the limited edition CD out of the tin box, but still it is not right even with the Patch. My sound and video work with DX8.0a and another game works with my old sound card but this game still does not work right when exiting the game. The sound worked right once, but then I exited the game and next time it did not. I turned off my computer, tried a different refresh and the game would not even start. Something with returning back to Windows after exiting the game.

I can play the game without sound by renaming sound.dll to sound.dl_ but still it worked one time after uninstalling and reinstalling again + the patch 1.16f later version.

I tried the Infogames support thing, but after 3 times of telling me I left out info that must be included, I gave up there.

The game just does not end right.

 DirectSound test results: All tests were successful.
 DirectDraw test results: All tests were successful.
 Direct3D test results: All tests were successful.
 DirectMusic test results: All tests were successful.

------------------
System Information
------------------
Time of this report: 12/14/2001, 15:30:10
Machine name: AFCATTOI
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 98 (4.10, Build 2222) A
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer:
System Model:
BIOS:
Processor: Intel Celeron, MMX, ~500MHz
Memory: 160MB RAM
Page File: 65MB used, 723MB available
DirectX Version: DirectX 8.0 (4.08.00.0400)
DX Setup Parameters: None
DxDiag Version: 4.08.00.0400

------------
DxDiag Notes
------------
DirectX Files Tab: The file mciqtz.drv is a beta version, which is unsupported and could cause problems.
You should reinstall DirectX to get the latest version.
Display Tab 1: The file ATI2DRAA.DRV is uncertified, which means that it has not been tested by Microsoft's Windows Hardware Quality Labs. You may be able to get a certified driver from the manufacturer of the hardware device.
Sound Tab 1: No problems found.
Music Tab: DirectMusic test results: All tests were successful.
Input Tab: No input devices detected.
No problems found.
Network Tab: No problems found.

------------------
DirectX Components
------------------
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---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: Xpert 128
Manufacturer: ATI Tech. - Enhanced
Chip type: Rev
DAC type:
Device ID: Enum\PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_5050&SUBSYS_00081002&REV_00\BUS_00&DEV_13&FUNC_00
Display Memory: 16.0 MB
Current Mode: 1024 x 768 (16 bit)(optimal refresh rate)
Monitor: HMD-A400
Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200
Driver Name: ATI2DRAA.DRV
Driver Version: 4.13.01.7078 (English)
DDI Version: 8 (or higher)
Driver Attributes: Final Retail
Driver Date/Size: 1/25/2001 00:05:22, 68896 bytes
Driver Certified: No
WHQL Date Stamp: n/a
VDD: *vdd,*vflatd
Mini VDD: ATI2VXAA.VXD
Mini VDD Date: , 0 bytes
Device Identifier: {D7B71EE2-1310-11CF-006C-0920A2C2C935}
Vendor ID: 0x1002
Device ID: 0x5050
SubSys ID: 0x00081002
Revision ID: 0x0000
Registry: OK
DDraw Status: Enabled
D3D Status: Enabled
AGP Status: Not Available
DDraw Test Result:
D3D Test Result:
AGP Test Result:

-------------
Sound Devices
-------------
Description: AWE64G Wave Out [220] (emulated)
Device ID: ISAPNP\CTL009E_DEV0000\00DAD5D0
Manufacturer ID: 2
Product ID: 104
Type: Emulated
Driver Name:
Driver Version:
Driver Attributes:
Driver Certified:
Date and Size:
Other Files: sb16.vxd
Driver Provider:
HW Accel Level: Emulation Only
Registry: OK
Sound Test Result:

-----------
DirectMusic
-----------
DLS Path: C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\gm.dls
Version: 1.00.16.0002
Ports:
Microsoft Synthesizer, Software (Not Kernel Mode), Output, DLS, Internal, Default Port
MIDI Mapper, Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, Internal
AWE64G MIDI Synth [620], Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, Internal
AWE64G MIDI Out [330], Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, External
Creative Music Synth [220], Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, Internal
AWE64G MIDI In [330], Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Input, No DLS, External
TTS Virtual Piano In, Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Input, No DLS, External
Registry: OK
Music Test Result: All tests were successful.

-------------
Input Devices
-------------
Poll w/ Interrupt: Yes
Registry: OK

-------------
Input Drivers
-------------
Registry Key: msjstick.drv<0000>
Active: Yes
DeviceID: ISAPNP\CTL009E_DEV0001\00DAD5D0
Matching DevID: *CTL7002
16-bit Driver: msjstick.drv
32-bit Driver: vjoyd.vxd

Registry Key: msjstick.drv<0016>
Active: No
DeviceID: CS4610\JOYSTICK\PCI&VEN_1013&DEV_6003&SUBSYS_00000000&REV_01&BUS_00&DEV_0B&FUNC_00
Matching DevID: CS4610\JOYSTICK
16-bit Driver: msjstick.drv
32-bit Driver: vjoyd.vxd cwcjoy.vxd


----------------------------
DirectPlay Service Providers
----------------------------
Serial Connection For DirectPlay - Registry: OK, File: dpmodemx.dll (4.08.00.0400)
Modem Connection For DirectPlay - Registry: OK, File: dpmodemx.dll (4.08.00.0400)
Internet TCP/IP Connection For DirectPlay - Registry: OK, File: dpwsockx.dll (4.08.00.0400)
IPX Connection For DirectPlay - Registry: OK, File: dpwsockx.dll (4.08.00.0400)
DirectPlay8 IPX Service Provider - Registry: OK, File: dpnwsock.dll (4.08.00.0400)
DirectPlay8 TCP/IP Service Provider - Registry: OK, File: dpnwsock.dll (4.08.00.0400)
DirectPlay8 Modem Service Provider - Registry: OK, File: dpnmodem.dll (4.08.00.0400)
DirectPlay8 Serial Service Provider - Registry: OK, File: dpnmodem.dll (4.08.00.0400)
DirectPlay Test Result:

-------------------------
DirectPlay Lobbyable Apps
-------------------------
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (DX7) - Registry: OK, ExeFile: terran.exe ()
Sid Meier's Alien Crossfire (DX7) - Registry: OK, ExeFile: axstart.exe ()
Railroad Tycoon II - The Second Century (DX7) - Registry: OK, ExeFile: RT2_TSC.EXE (1.00.00.0001)
Startopia (DX7) - Registry: OK, ExeFile: Startopia.exe (1.01.21.0000)

------------------------------------
Inactive Display Entries in Registry
------------------------------------
Card name: XPERT 98 PCI (English)
Driver: macxw4.drv
Card name: Standard Display Adapter (VGA)
Driver: vga.drv
Card name: Standard Display Adapter (VGA)
Driver: vga.drv
Card name: RAGE PRO TURBO AGP 2X (English)
Driver: ati2drae.drv

----------------------------------
Inactive Sound Entries in Registry
----------------------------------
Card name: Crystal SoundFusion(tm)
Driver: cwcmmsys.drv

And it works with other games.

[Tall_Walt]

Re: Re: Upgrades (was Re: RTFM please + ideas)

Originally posted by Bad Ax


I think the next patch should include a change such that a unit can upgrade in a city without a barracks, but it becomes either a conscript or a regular troop, regardless of its previous level. So

Elite -> Regular
Veteran -> Regular
Regular -> Conscript
Conscript -> Conscript

This seems like it would realistically portray the soldiers' unfamiliarity with their new weapons. In gameplay terms, it improves the upgrade system while still leaving an incentive to build barracks in all or most cities.

I think you make a good proposal, but I'd like to suggest that it's too draconian: conscript and regular units are just too weak.

In terms of realism, since the number of years per turn changes in Civ, the upgrade always takes place in a period in which an equal quality unit could be sent from the nearest barracks and the old unit could be shipping back and retrained. Also, Civ is rather "low resolution" in terms of times and upgrades. Realiistically, changes happen nearly continuously as does retraining. The earliest matchlock muskets gave way to wheellock, flintlock, cartridge and ball, and full cartridge--over a couple hundred years. So the upgrade is somewhat symbolic.

As far as gameplay, first, more barracks allow more veteran units to be produced in more areas, already a strong motivator to have many barracks. But I think the fundamental issue is that this is a game and is supposed to be fun. I have no problem micromanaging a battle or a newly won city. Micromanaging upgrading units so they don't take experience penalties is not fun, IMHO. So, like automation of workers or city management, I feel it should be able to be automated without penalty.

I would suggest that automating upgrading should work like automating workers, with each unit going through the motions of returning to the nearest barracks, but it seems clear that Firaxis simply doesn't have the programming time available to implement such a feature with so many other tasks on its plate. Thus, I suggest it happen automagically to make it easy on Firaxis. It would be invisible just as transport of resources and luxuries is invisible. Civ is, after all, a high level strategic game, not a tactical game; so many things should disappear as not worthy of notice.

[Bad Ax]

Re: Re: Re: Upgrades (was Re: RTFM please + ideas)

Originally posted by Tall_Walt

I think you make a good proposal, but I'd like to suggest that it's too draconian: conscript and regular units are just too weak.

I disagree completely. The player makes a rational choice about building barracks in certain cities. All choices have consequences, and this is just one of them. If you don't like this upgrade pattern, then manually move your units to the cities that do have barracks and upgrade them there. If you're not too concerned about the experience loss, then roll the dice and upgrade your units on site. My proposal is simply a way to reconcile the facts that you can build the most modern unit in a city without a barracks and that you cannot upgrade a unit to the most modern form in that same city.

[Szethe]

Found a crash bug when receiving the disorder options dialog at start of turn and selecting "Give them some Entertainment". Seems consistantly recreatable from save game.

Crash to "Civilization has caused an error in CIVILIZATION3.EXE. Civilization will now exit." dialog when loading a huge map save after playing a few turns.

This seems a bug to me but I could be wrong: At peace with the Chinese, advance to next turn and Chinese offers me a peace treaty during its turn. The diplomacy dialog has only "We accept.", "No way.", and "Thats it. Goodbye." options. Seems consistantly recreatable from save game.

Never crashed under any circumstance in the prior version. Hope this helps, and pardon if these were already posted.

[PN]

Re: Re: Re: v1.16f: Issues? Bugs? This is the thread

Originally posted by Pythagoras


Yeah Firaxis just happens to be able to test civ3 on every windows platform with every concievable hardware combination and id all conflicts. The idea here is that bugs crop up a lot due to a lot of different reasons having to do with the specifics of peoples computers. Its hard for people to anticipate these things. Its not like developing for the playstation, where every console is virtually identical with not a lot of modification. In the PC world you got every concievable user from someone's mom running ghetto win 95 to joe-blow running XP which he's h@x0r3d and massively overclocked every thing posible. You gotta support all ends of the spectrum.

I appreciate your point about hardware combinations. However, most of the bugs claimed to be fixed in the README are logic bugs in the gameplay/AI and not fixes for display/keyboard/other hardware issues. So I don't understand why Firaxis should be asking us to confirm that they've got their logic right.

Moving on, one of Windows great strengths (compared with DOS) is that it allows developers to make their software as hardware independent as possible. Applications have (for example) a standard calling interface to a graphics card whoever manufactured it. This means that although not as easy to develop as your Playstation example, hardware compatibility problems are minimised.

As it happens I do have serious stability problems (and only with this game, 1 of 25 of my PC), which are worse since I installed the patch. I'm considering removing the patch, especially as I cannot be sure which logic bugs have really been fixed. Which is why I had my rant I suppose, because it would appear that Firaxis aren't exactly sure either

[mscha]

Re: Re: Re: Copy protection problems

Originally posted by mscha (that's me!)


Thanks for your quick response!

Unfortunately, Infogrames tech support took two days to reply that they refuse to help me (since I'm in the Netherlands), and pointed me to a non-existing Dutch support site at http://www.nl.infogrames.com/ .

- Michael

Well, no thanks to Infogripes support, but I solved my problems!

If anyone has copy protection problems, and is using CursorEx, check out this thread.

- Michael

[Helvetica]

Minor shortcut glitch

The manual says you can use Ctrl-F4 to look at the game version, (shortcuts, p. 200), but this does not seem to work??

(I was trying to verify that my patch had installed correctly, but I finally saw the version on the lower corner of the opening screen).

[cam hardy]

Once I developed Nationalism, if I try to research anything new my game crashes.

Sorry if this has been dealt with before, but its driving me crazy!

[PN]

Originally posted by Raion
...snip...
------------
DxDiag Notes
------------
DirectX Files Tab: The file mciqtz.drv is a beta version, which is unsupported and could cause problems.
...snip...
And it works with other games.

Raion,

For what it's worth I had serious problems with a beta version of a display driver a couple of months ago which only affected one game too. As you are having troubles with sound and this beta driver is sound-related I'd suggest that you try and get a non-beta update.

[NoisyMime]

Re: Re: Patch does not install where I installed Civ III

lol...."Doh!"

I guess I am used to patches, like those from Blizzard, or 3DO, or actually many, many, other places, that "know" where they are supposed to install. So I just clicked right through everything.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Skanky Burns


If you installed civ3 to a different directory, then you will have to install the patch to that same directory.

Eg: if its in c:\games\civ3

then thats where the patch should be installed to.



Make sure you have the right patch!!
This was an issue with the first "version 1.16f" patch that Firaxis released. They put the wrong .exe in the patch. The one way to tell if you have the wrong patch is if the advisor lines disappear in the f4 screen (after looking at the science advisor screen or other screens)

Solution for this problem: Download the patch again. By now they all have the correct versions up. Just download, and run the patch. This will uninstall the previous patch. NOW RUN THE PATCH INSTALLER AGAIN. This will install the correct patch.

Dan was a little slow in updating Civ3.com when the patch first came out (network problems), and i got the wrong patch too.
Hopefully this will help you