Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

[Nuclear Winter]

BEta´s answer to my PM

Re: Convert Sinners!!! The end of the World is coming!!!
Hello Dear NW. Yes it has been awhile. My apologies for our lapse in contact. We have been - er - very busy with the exodus from our homeland. But things are looking up. And with a brighter future, the people of Vox may value a depper spritual understanding of the world. I will approach them with your proposal, and if necessary, arrange that you can chat with the members.

As to engineering - it is up this turn. So we will put it on the table.

As to deals for luxuries - yes - we will be intersested. We will have none. It may be a few turns before we need them - but I'm sure we can reach a deal.

Also - I owe BF a closure note on Chivalry - which we do not have unfortunately - and will not have for some time.

Thank you again for your note. Please stay in touch.

Regards - Beta.

[Nuclear Winter]

My message to Beta

Hello Beta, old chap,
I and my team really believe catholicism can give you guys peace of spirit to endure the harsh times your people are going through. We ourselves are in times of great danger and war mobilization in Spain, as the greedy Neu Demogyptians turn their greedy eyes toward lands that are spanish by right. To make things worse, there is even the rumours that Glory fo War is preparing to betray the old friendship it has with us in order to try and take it´s share of Spain... Of course, it is our job to make sure the Spannish Paella is a dish they won´t taste...
As for the engineering deal, we in Spain would

love to get, it, it could be THE tech to change the tides of the war to our side, but we also need to keep our coffers intact for war emergencies... so we humbly ask Vox Controli to give us the tech now, and let us pay it later, and to make this deal sweeter for your team, we have agreed to give you 2 luxuries now PLUSthe gold after the war is over. We believe your team will be compreensive with us and aid Spain in this times of need.
We would also like to schedule a chat with your team, so please tell me when you guys will be available, and we will be there.

Regards,
Nuke[/QUOTE]

[BigFree]

a copy of message to Aidun
Your Majesty,
Honorable Ambassador,
The People of Spain,

Regretfully, we have to inform you that after thoroughly discussing and considering your defense pact proposal, we do not feel we are able to sign it while honoring its spirit. Other treaties we signed in the past prevent us from actually assisting you in a war conflict effectively.

Instead of signing a treaty that we would know would be nothing more than a hollow shell, we would rather not sign it at all and help you with whatever troubles you may encounter on a case by case basis.

With the best regards,
vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

[Togas]

email from Vox:

As to the deal - yes - we want to get the tech to you - but we need cash.
We desperately need cash now and were relying on this deal to get us through
the hop. We have been experiencing a severe cash crunch from downsizing our
pop and building workers and settlers. And it gets worse this turn.

We better discuss. ...Beta.

[Togas]

received from Darekill:

Hello Togas.

I apologize.
I apologize for the lies i told you in our chat last week. Because you were pressing us to talk i had to tell you a story. I'M sure you did not realy belive me. But I'm also sure you understand that in the best of interest for ND i had to tell these lies.

No pact was made we had no trades and the last NAP has a longe time run out. so we are not breacking treatys.

I'm responsible for what i told you and I hope that you can forgive me these nasty things. It was not personal. I hope you understand.

You Friend (in RL) and Enemy (in game)

Darekill

[Togas]

My reply:

Darekill,

Thank you for your very polite and sincere letter. What we told you was, and still is, true.

What we didn't tell you was that we have been trying to get GoW to fight you instead of us. It appears we have been unsucessful. We knew they wanted to fight someone and we hoped it would be you.

Your team is noble and intelligent and I don't need to tell you that GoW will ultimately betray you, as they have betrayed us. We had a pact with them which they broke. Additionally they were negotiating with us a longterm alliance up until Monday which they used as a ruse to try to deceive us. Thankfully, my people are too distrusting and we have sufficient arms to repel their attack.

We know you will strike, and although we hope you will reconsider, it appears too late for that. I just ask you to keep this in mind: Eventually, you and GoW are going to have to fight each other. It is inevitable and given their character it is likely that they will betray you before you even consider betraying them.

Do not leave yourself unguarded, and do not let them try to fool you, as they tried to fool us, with stories of long term alliances. They are not worthy or honorable allies. The greatest tragedy of this war is that you chose those backstabbing warmongers over us.

Should you ever decide to choose us, I just hope that it's sooner rather than later. We would love nothing more than to see them driven from this Earth and destroyed beneath the feet of their supposed ally ... just as they have done to us.

But, once again, thank you for your kind and courteous letter. I hold no grudges against you or your team.

--Togas

[Togas]

his reply to my reply:

Dear Togas,
though we might be enemys in the game I'm glad to hear that you do not hate me for my lies.

As for the GoW well, belive me or not, we know exactly what we have to think about them

But for now we fight side by side with them and we have our very own goals in this war. We will try to be an honorable enemy as good as it is possible in a war. we use to fight hard but fair. You'll see.


Darekill

[Arnelos]

My chat with OPD of Gathering Storm this morning:

opd> lo
Arnelos> hey
opd> hey hey
Arnelos> oddly, I have to talk to you about PTW1
opd> just taking in whats going on in ptw1
Arnelos> as for PTW2... it's been so long since the save moved that the save game thread fell off the front page
Arnelos> what's going on in PTW1 is that GoW sent their entire d*mn army across half the planet to attack us rather than defending themselves
opd> I think there may be a no comment from blanket from GS
Arnelos> as for ND, we knew they were planning to attack us for a while now
opd> how will things go?
Arnelos> well, ND is being slow about it... almost as though their attack is just for show
Arnelos> GoW has 10 riders and nowhere to send them unless they attack us or ND
Arnelos> it would take them AGES to get home
opd> 10 riders is that all
Arnelos> that's it
Arnelos> we can beat the riders if luck and tactics are on our side
Arnelos> they'll be stuck in jungle for at least 2 turns if they don't try to storm the mountain fortification... if they storm the mountain, they'll lose at least half of their riders doing that
opd> do you think any cities will fall?
Arnelos> I personally figure we'll lose Toledo to GoW if we don't get lucky with the moutain and jungle fighting
Arnelos> as for the ND attack, we have no idea since they haven't even arrived yet
Arnelos> the thing that's going for us is that darn jungle
Arnelos> 3 movement points swallowed per tile... which nullifies the advantage of their UU's until they get out of it
opd> I can't see their forces just being 10 riders
Arnelos> GoW only brought 10 riders. ND is the rest of it
Arnelos> the thing is... I believe 10 riders is all they have for a simple reason: their domestic development seems atrociously bad
Arnelos> I honestly think they've built little other than mil units and barracks the whole game
opd> really?
Arnelos> as far as we can tell... they're easily the last place civ in the world other than Vox now
opd> but they've hardly been in any wars
Arnelos> Bob has been a non-stop arms race the whole game
Arnelos> and GoW's capital... accounting for most of their production, has been busy very SLOWLY building the Great Library for ages now
opd> if you have cats the jungle will serve you well as a defencsive wall
Arnelos> our main problem at the moment is that our cats are too far away
Arnelos> it will take time to haul them up to the GoW front in the East
Arnelos> especially with all of those rivers
Arnelos> if ND attacks through the jungle, though... we can easily beat off a force of ~10 Ansars in the West... a lot easier than the GoW force in the EAst
Arnelos> the problem is long-term
opd> if they've just riders and no defence with jungle to cross
opd> the prob is GA'a?
Arnelos> we can certainly bleed GoW and ND of most of their initial armies, but their GA's will kick in and they'll eventually out-produce us unless we get help
Arnelos> yup
Arnelos> the thing is... we figure GS and Lego have a concrete interest in making sure any Bobian war is a bloodbath
opd> how so?
Arnelos> bleed as much of the ND and GoW GA's away as possible
Arnelos> make sure they're weak when the war is over so ND doesn't become an even larger superpower
Arnelos> that's basically our aim... we can't - long term - defeat a 2-front war... our goal is to bleed them as much as possible and hopefully (if it's possible) waste their GA's
Arnelos> we could do that a lot more effectively (even if we eventually get wiped out) if we get some help
Arnelos> the best situation for us AND for people off-continent is that RP Team survives and Bob remains divided, leaving all 3 civs weak
Arnelos> but if we can't have that, we might as well bleed them for as much as we're worth
opd> do you think you'll be able to take any cities?
Arnelos> if they keep coming, yes
Arnelos> GoW might even be able to break through with a few riders in the intial rush
Arnelos> no idea how many Ansars ND has, so that's harder to gauge
opd> Nd is more of a power house
opd> how strong does the partnership of ND and GoW seem to you?
Arnelos> the thing is... the whole war makes sense for ND... they can conquer Spanish cities and have them be non-corrupt
Arnelos> for GoW, it makes almost zero sense
Arnelos> unless they've consciously decided that the game is over for them anywyas and they might as well play spolier
Arnelos> *spoiler
opd> I don't know about that
Arnelos> if GoW actually takes any RP territory, it's 20 tiles away... hopeless corrupt and with a powerhouse ND in between them and their new territory
Arnelos> ND can just turn around and wipe out whatever GoW claimed... then take over GoW
opd> GoW must move through ND land
Arnelos> assuming GoW doesn't backstab ND, of course
opd> ND have to be worried about that
Arnelos> we've been assuming all along that GoW was going to backstab ND
Arnelos> we put forces near Toledo to guard against GoW attack (and thank god for that), but we still half-figure they might just turn around and backstab ND
Arnelos> it's a collosal game of chicken
opd> the good news for RP is neither enemy can bring their full millitarty for fear of backstab
Arnelos> GoW wants ND to attack first so they can backstab ND rather than wasting their 10 riders against us... ND wants GoW to attack first to prove their serious
Arnelos> *they're
opd> I wouldn't trust GoW at all
Arnelos> we didn't... that's why we moved our troops up there
opd> MZ is the king of evil plans
Arnelos> well... we had MZ's "evil plan" pegged the whole time
Arnelos> from what they were saying, we knew a force of some riders, no idea how many, were headed south around ND and that ND was ok with this
Arnelos> we also already knew ND planned to attack us
opd> have lego commented yet
opd> You knew ND were going to????
Arnelos> Lego would like to help us, but they have not been specific
Arnelos> ND stopped all communication several turns back... we even sent them an offer for Ivory and they just never acknowledged it
Arnelos> given that they were scouting the border, it was pretty certain what was up
Arnelos> we'd already SUSPECTED they were going to attack us, but those two things confirmed it
Arnelos> the wild card was GoW... we didn't know whether they were going to backstab ND or attack us
opd> If you knew ND were going to attack why didn't you get GoW on your side?
Arnelos> we saw their force of riders 2 turns ago I think... GoW told us they'd backstab ND, told ND they'd attack us. We hoped they'd backstab ND, but assumed they'd attack us and sent troops up there
Arnelos> We *tried* to get GoW on our side
Arnelos> GoW pretended, but we didn't trust them
Arnelos> not with their riders still coming south
opd> You could have offered most of ND's land adn still be stronger than them
Arnelos> that's the thing... we DID
opd> hmmmn
Arnelos> we offered GoW *exactly* what they asked for... a 50/50 split of the continent
opd> wow
Arnelos> in fact, we were allied to GoW before this... technically, I think that alliance was broken when GoW declared war... we've had an MPP with them for ages
opd> I guess they must have a NAP with ND then
Arnelos> in fact, I think they renewed it somewhat recently (as insurance against ND)
opd> you had MPP?
Arnelos> GoW also asked for an offensive alliance against ND
opd> lol very slippery
opd> talk about untrustworthy
Arnelos> We've had an MPP with GoW since before the Lux war
opd> what???
opd> did ND know?
Arnelos> not sure if that's constant... it probably was broken for a period
Arnelos> nope
Arnelos> ND never knew to our knowledge
opd> and so did the MPP run out last turn?
Arnelos> I'm pretty sure the answer is no
Arnelos> pretty sure it's still active - minus the whole declaration of war thing
Arnelos> our NAP with ND ran out, though
Arnelos> they purposely declined to renew... one of MANY signs they were going to attack us
opd> are you saying that GoW broke a MPP
Arnelos> yes, I *think* that's exactly what GoW has done
opd> WTF
opd> when was it agreed?
Arnelos> ND has been completely honorable, though... they even apologized to us in PMs when they finally let us know they were declaring war
Arnelos> lemme check on the MPP
Arnelos> the latest post on a renewal says it will be active until 500 A.D. it looks like
opd> so how are they spinning this?
opd> are there any loop holes
Arnelos> lemme check the details of the treaties...
Arnelos> hmm... I can't find the original treaty, just the most recent proposals for the offensive alliance... I'm still looking... the thing is, the treaty itself was renewed so many times it's hard to find the original
opd> have RP made this clear in the main forum
opd> breaking a MPP is something that GS and everyone else takes v. seriously
Arnelos> you'll have to check with Togas on the exact timing
Arnelos> here's what Togas sent Darekill, though:
Arnelos> Your team is noble and intelligent and I don't need to tell you that GoW will ultimately betray you, as they have betrayed us. We had a pact with them which they broke. Additionally they were negotiating with us a longterm alliance up until Monday which they used as a ruse to try to deceive us. Thankfully, my people are too distrusting and we have sufficient arms to repel their attack.
Arnelos> ask Togas for confirmation, but I'm rather sure the MPP was still active
Arnelos> I believe it went through 500 A.D., but I'm not sure
opd> If the mpp was still active then you should get togas to post in the main forum
Arnelos> as I said, ND didn't break any agreements because they refused to renew the ones we had when they ran out a few turns back
opd> panzer is being quite slanderous about you too?
Arnelos> GoW, as I recall, was fine with renewing things and even signing new treaties
opd> you promised help to vox and lux?
Arnelos> no
Arnelos> we never promised anything to either of them as far as I know (though I don't know much about Vox)
Arnelos> RP participated in the joint chats where everyone was trying to help out first Lux, then Vox
Arnelos> but we never pledged to send anything to Lux and I don't think to Vox either (not sure, though)
Arnelos> hell, we knew it was folly
Arnelos> with Lux, GoW backstabbed them
Arnelos> we just realized we couldn't do anything... we specifically told Lux Invicta there was nothing we could do
opd> sorry it is GF sayin gyou promised them help
Arnelos> yeah... GF is... notoriously unreliable
Arnelos> I don't know the details of the Vox stuff
Arnelos> I wasn't around for that
Arnelos> I know we didn't send anything
Arnelos> for Lux, I was in that chat... we were actually honest about not being able to help, which Trip found disheartening. GhengisFarb was trying to see if Lux would sell GoW one of their cities in return for military assistance.... when Lux didn't play ball, GoW attacked the city (which Lux razed themselves)
opd> lol
Arnelos> of course, GhengisFarb is no longer in charge of Glory of War
Arnelos> so his sins are ancient history as far as we're concerned
opd> is he even in gow anynore
Arnelos> yes, I believe he is
opd> you remember inchon?
Arnelos> that was where GoW attacked you guys?
Arnelos> I don't think I was here for that
opd> where GS flanked vox
Arnelos> ah
Arnelos> nope
Arnelos> good name for it
opd> are you prepared for an atempt at dropping units behind your lines by navy?
opd> vox weren't and that was the killing blow
Arnelos> true
Arnelos> the problem is that we don't have enough galleys at the moment - we'd have to build them... our hope is that Lego or you would do the honors of that part if it's possible
opd> btw is it possible to agree in game MPP and alliances yet
Arnelos> the other problem is that ND's forces are highly mobile... 3 move, plus a road network
Arnelos> alliances - yes, MPP - no
opd> we have an embassy with you now
Arnelos> oh?
Arnelos> oh, that's right... we could see your capital, but nothing around it until we traded maps
Arnelos> so of course we must have had embassies
Arnelos> just didn't think much about that
Arnelos> the thing is... GoW is by far the more dishonorable of the two (ND and GoW), but ND is the potential superpower
Arnelos> so it's a toss-up which one we need to concentrate on
Arnelos> personally, I figure we should concentrate on GoW's 10 riders... once we beat those, it will take GoW forever to reinforce
Arnelos> but the military strategy is up to dejon and Togas, not me
opd> BTW one think I always want to know
opd> why do you not rename any of your cities>
Arnelos> lol
Arnelos> it's the whole "roleplay" theme - the idea is to play *as* Spain
Arnelos> we actually have renamed all of them. The cities are named for the "region" we assigned the areas of our part of Bob
opd> nice
Arnelos> the fact that real Spanish cities largely have the same names as the Civ3 Spanish citylist is no coincidence

MAST related material deleted...nothing to see here

Arnelos> probably Thud
Arnelos> he posted in RP today for the first time in a while
opd> was it a so whats new post?
Arnelos> lol
Arnelos> sorta... he posted in the Armageddon thread with something like that
opd> the thread dedicated to starting armageddon
Arnelos> no, the thread dedicated to worrying about armageddon
Arnelos> we've had a lot of those
Arnelos> Bob has been in a non-stop arms race since the Lux war
Arnelos> everyone's stayed "average" to each other militarily for a very long time, but we've all been building units much of that time
Arnelos> that's why our land isn't fully settled... we couldn't afford to do that AND keep up in the arms race
opd> why would you need to be so involved in an arms race if you had a mpp with gow?
Arnelos> two reasons
Arnelos> 1 - We never trusted Glory of War to actually UPHOLD the MPP... this is Glory of War, afterall
Arnelos> 2 - Even if ND attacks us and GoW attacks them from behind, we'd still be attacked by ND first... and we'd like to have enough defense to repell the attack
Arnelos> which means that while we have enough force to rather easily repell GoW or ND by themselves, repelling both is going to be a mighty challenge... probably impossible
Arnelos> though we're certainly going to try
opd> war can be the best part of the game
Arnelos> if you're winning it, sure

Chat went on to other subjects after that.

[Togas]

PM from Unorthodox:

Togas,

I could really care less what you believe about the team. I am just here as ME right now, not GoW. I had some things I needed to say, as ME, not GoW. If you can't understand that, fine.

I can't reverse our decision now. The time for that passed when the team rejected your first proposal and decided to join in this insanity. I asked for the revisions simply because no one believed you would even consider them. I wanted to prove RP was not stupid enough to not consider them since they were the best opportunity for a win. I wanted to prove we are wrong here.

This makes no sense, you are right. I agree. An impossible boarder to defend, assuming we can actually break this fortress you have built and that GS simply doesn't come wipe us out now while we are occupied elsewhere. A GS/ND alliance is now simply screaming to be made, if it hasn't been already, leaving us with no iron, and therefore no way to defend.

I am, however, stuck on a team that feels otherwise. I just feel that if I had started complaining about how we were handling things earlier, given us time, and gotten that second proposal in before it was too late, I may have persuaded our team otherwise as well, that is all I wanted to say. I only have so much time to devote to demo games, it was not enough in this instance.

[Togas]

my PM to Unorthodox:

Unorthodox,

I'm sorry if I seemed too harsh with you in my previous email. This whole debacle has been extremely frustrating from my end as I've searched for both a logical explaination, and for a means to change a few minds.

Let me make one thing clear to you and please tell this to your team: NOTHING is set in stone. For you or for us. If opinions should change, new opportunities arise, or reluctance creep in, we welcome a talk and welcome future negotiations.

Sure, I'm going to be a bit p*ssed off in the beginning of the talks (so I'll probably have one of my calmer teammates talk), but ultimately I belive in reason over pride. What matters to me is what is best for Spain and I will do anything and everything I can to see to it that Spain survives and flourishes. Except, of course, if we are to live as Vox, slaves and exiles. None of us could stand that. I believe we would rather be eliminated from this game than to suffer on in apathy.

I still wish we could avoid all this. Hell, is there any real harm in sending those Ansars back and attacking Mavdad? Would it be such a bad thing for your team to change it's mind? One good betrayal deserves another

Anyhow, thanks for the PM and for your time.

--Togas

[Arnelos]

RP-GS Chat: The Offer

E_T> Hello
opd> allo allo
E_T> Arnie and BF need to talk to as many GS people as is possible
opd> I will see what I can do
opd> well I'll contact nye
E_T> Is Tuberski a GS memeber?
* BigFree has joined #WWB
BigFree> hey
opd> hey hey BF
opd> happy birthday
* E_T sets mode: +o BigFree
BigFree> thanks
BigFree> can I have a present?
opd> no
Arnelos> hey
BigFree> maybe about 10 Galleys full of MI's
BigFree>
BigFree> LOL
E_T> or war chariouts
opd> I think perhaps nye is busy
BigFree> seriously though, what would it take to get GS as our Ally?
opd> you didn't summond me here to ask that did you?
Arnelos> BF - should I lay out what we've seen this turn?
E_T> I tried to get MSS in here, too
opd> wow
BigFree> yes, we know you are the 'real' power behind GS
Arnelos> we do?
opd> I'm going to have to edit that out
BigFree> Yes Arnelos
Arnelos>
E_T> Tell all Arnie
Arnelos> ok... ND has moved 28 military units either into our territory or into the jungle
opd> I'd be amazed if you could get MSS
opd> wow 28!!!!!
Arnelos> given the size of militaries and that we are still "average" to ND, we figure this leaves a skeleton defense in ND's cities
E_T> Arnie, it is a settler
opd> what is the make up of the forces
Arnelos> GoW has now 14 riders on our border, most of which were probably upgrades. This means that most of their money was spent upgrading horses to riders rather than spears to pikes... they probably have a small force of spears defending home. THey're probably counting on their GA funding more upgrades.
E_T> 10 ansars
BigFree> We can send screen shots if you like
opd> are you average or strong compared to GoW
BigFree> we are pulling out the stops here
BigFree> average
Arnelos> It would take GoW at least 8-10 turns to send their 14 riders home
Arnelos> We are average to both of them, have been for a very long time
opd> screen shots would be cool
BigFree> if it were just one of them against us, we can handle it, but with two, and both using their UU's and going into a GA; boy, that is trouble.
Arnelos> My theory is that both of them have every single military unit at their disposal toward this attack... it's an attempt at overwhelming force, and not a bad one. But it leaves their home cities woefully undefended
E_T> the main stack is 10 ansars, 3 pike, 4 MI and 1 settler
opd> 1 stlr?
Arnelos> the part about their home cities being "woefully undefended" while their ENTIRE armies are south of the jungle means that even if they were attacked, it would take time for their armies to get home
Arnelos> even a considerably small force landed in the north could probably do untold amounts of damage to their economies
opd> have you calculated their maximum possible amount of troops
E_T> we think they are going to open up part of the jungle with it and have an open point into our lands
Arnelos> calculated possible max units, haven't had time yet... just got the save a bit back... still collecting stuff
E_T> Oh, does Vox have any military left, or did they disband it all??
opd> they still have some
E_T> BF has to go to work in 5 minutes
BigFree>
E_T> are they in route to their new land??
opd> don't they know it's your b-day
BigFree> HAHA
E_T> maybe they can land and attack, too?
opd> I think so
opd> lol
Arnelos> given how underdefened GoW must be... it's a possibility, especially on GoW's island
E_T> get a new land, better than Lego is giving them
opd> hmmmmn
BigFree> Yes, GoW land can become Vox Land
BigFree> LOL
E_T> Arnie, the only route thaty have to get there is right north of GoW
Arnelos> E_T, their galleys are headed past it en route to the land Lego is giving them anyhow
Arnelos> they have to... no other way but across ocean I believe
E_T> Yes, so they can "drop off" a little bit sooner
Arnelos> which would help solve their money problem
Arnelos> the problem is obviously GoW retaliation down the line... Vox isn't dumb enough to do it if GoW will be strong enough to retaliate
E_T> but with everyone else helping, it would be a possibility
BigFree> adios
Arnelos> but if GS were to invade Bob for their OWN reasons, given the sheer level of under-defense in the entire northern part of the continent and GoW's entire army being in RP territory across the map...
opd> later BF
BigFree> time to go to work for me, see you all later.
E_T> it's not something to be discounted
* BigFree is now known as BF|Away
E_T> and as far as I know, they are still mostly under GS controll, right OPD??
opd> omg MSS has sent me a PM
E_T> and ??
opd> he hasn't a clue whats going on
opd> he is busy too I think
Arnelos> OPD - here's the thing... with 28 ND units and 14 GoW riders either in or on our borders, even with our sizable military, we can't beat THOSE odds unless our luck is in the absolute extreme. We are at the point where we would be willing to basically offer GS what they want for intervention... including becoming a "vassal state" as Togas put it
opd> hmmmn
opd> what did Togas say?
Arnelos> We can certainly eat up much of their militaries, but we can't beat it all
Arnelos> those are actually Togas' words... "vassal state"
E_T> ArnCiv3> basically, our only route out of this is to become GS' satellite state... but I'm willing to do that if it thwarts ND and GoW and keeps Spain around
E_T> E_T> And they will lose the Lux trade, too
E_T> Togas> I'll sign off on that.
E_T> Togas> We could be a Vassal of GS
opd> interesting
opd> GS fully understands the way things are with regard to this war
Arnelos> because we can certainly eat up a lot of those attacking forces, but in the end, we'll lose
E_T> against both, with their GA's, no way at all
opd> Are you saying that you're willing to forgo any chance of winning the game to see ND and GoW defeated?
Arnelos> we can certainly try to bleed away and waste as much of their GA's as possible, but in the end, our GA can't start unless we get a GL for the Sistine (and get lucky) or get Navigation
Arnelos> OPD - yes
E_T> and you can bet that one or the other will become the super power if that happens
Arnelos> OPD - with this double invasion, our chances of winning the game are already sunk
Arnelos> at this point, we have to find a patron and help them out
opd> Are you willing to agree to a "untill the end of the game" agreement with GS?
Arnelos> That is exactly what we are saying
opd> ok here is how things should move
opd> Togas must send an email to nye with regard to what has been said here
E_T> we will help you monitarily, we will help you militarily, we will help you research wise, we will give you workers, ect...
Arnelos> I'd think the first thing would be all of our luxes
E_T> brb
E_T> we arfe already tradin g
Arnelos> not all of them with GS, I believe
E_T> we are already trading them luxes and were to get them more, but for the war...
E_T> Everything but Ivory and spices
opd> Now I'm excited
Arnelos> lol
E_T> we just got the Ivory connected and have had to move away from the spices for other things
opd> So I'm guessing Lego has not exactly been forcoming with help
Arnelos> well, we have 3 more ivory unconnected
Arnelos> Lego is willing to help, but we figure they'll only send money and tech
E_T> We can send them Ivory this turn
Arnelos> money and tech are nice, but we're sunk if that's all we get
opd> How willing are you to hurt lego?
Arnelos> OPD - look... if we become a vassal of GS, does that really matter?
E_T> Lego really hasn't been much of a help at all, as they know that a peacefull Bob is the worst thing for them'
opd> ok
opd> so like I said Togas should send an email to nye stating all that has been stated here
opd> addressed to GS
Arnelos> The main reason to keep us around is to keep Bob weak and divided. If the goal is to also attack Lego, sure. But we'll obviously need a while to rebuild for such an endeavor
Arnelos> alright, Togas is currently driving home from work in RL
E_T> Realistcly, GS is out of reach of them until Navigation, but anyone on Bob can be in Lego real quick
this is not some self gratifying thing it is the neccessary procedure
Arnelos> no, we understand
E_T> Or, NYE can send it to Togas, He will sign off on it, as you have seen
Arnelos> E_T... well, if GS and RP have a ROP, GS can send galleys around our south shore without incident or even comment to other civs ;p
opd> Lego is for the future
E_T> GS can cross the path much faster, too
Arnelos> for now, the main goal is to keep Bob weak and divided...
* E_T is now known as E_Tcigare
Arnelos> RP is already going to be weakened by this war, as will the invading militaries of our enemies. The only thing remaining is to damage their economies.
E_Tcigare> back in a bit
opd> good idea ET
opd> do you mind?
Arnelos> huh?
E_Tcigare> No, go ahead...
Arnelos> yeah, go ahead
E_Tcigare> OPD is also going to have a smoke
Arnelos> lol
* E_Tcigare .
opd> cheers I need a min to take this in
opd> good idea ET
opd> do you mind?
Arnelos> huh?
E_Tcigare> No, go ahead...
Arnelos> yeah, go ahead
E_Tcigare> OPD is also going to have a smoke
Arnelos> lol
* E_Tcigare .
opd> cheers I need a min to take this in
Arnelos> E_T - do you have a log of all of this?
Arnelos> ('cause I'm manually copying it into one at the moment)
Arnelos> ok, copied everything into a log
opd> back
E_Tcigare> I should have a log
* E_Tcigare is now known as E_T
E_T> yes, I do
opd> ok alot has been said here
opd> what you're proposing is likely to decide the outcome of the whole game
E_T> Arnie, can you start filling OPD in on the Geo-political situation on our contenant?
Arnelos> what exactly do you mean?
E_T> it's beet that we side with someone who can win than to lose completely
E_T> all of our conjectures about ND and GoW
Arnelos> ah
E_T> all of the things that GoW and ND have been doing
E_T> the "evil plan" that is likely unfolding
Arnelos> the largest problem for the GoW-ND "alliance" is that it's very fragile. The only thing holding it together at the moment is a desire to steal RP land.
Arnelos> GoW and ND don't trust each other at all... both played a game of chicken when they approached our borders... both sides wanted the other one to attack first so they couldn't be backstabbed
Arnelos> finally, they jointly declared war in public at the same time... but GoW first
Arnelos> ND has fully committed it seems nearly every military unit they have, but GoW has been dodgy... they haven't really moved in yet, just sorta moving about on our border
Arnelos> We believe GoW wants ND to attack us so that they can backstab ND while RP is weak
opd> I see
Arnelos> In fact, that is what we have believed all along... but GoW has had to "prove themselves to ND" by actually declaring war on us and moving their riders into our territory. They have not attacked, we believe, because they want to fight us on the cheap... their real target is ND
E_T> GoW could have attacked us, what, 2 turns ago?
E_T> ISDG save is here, back in a bit
Arnelos> so it's possible that GoW will destroy one city of ours, then turn around and attack ND
Arnelos> thing is... they saw our stack of pikes and MI come out to meet them and they immediately retreated around to attack another city (1 pop, little defense)
opd> hmmmn
opd> so you think GoW is going to backstab ND
Arnelos> but with the full commital of ND forces, it's questionable whether ND will be able to defend themselves if GoW attacks in the next 2-3 turns
Arnelos> We've thought that GoW was planning to backstab ND once the ND-RP war started for a long time... we still think that's the plan... they had to alter it when ND got suspicious
opd> yes but if you think the alliance is going to split then why are you offering to become a GS vassal?
Arnelos> 2 reasons
Arnelos> 1 - our forces are split on two fronts... even if one of those fronts evaporates, ND is going to push through the other front with their 28 units and do serious damage to our main production center
Arnelos> That puts us far enough down in long-term potential that we're going to need a patron anyhow
* nye has joined #WWB
Arnelos> 2 - GoW may actually still attack in order to raze our 2 cities in the East before turning around
opd> lo nye
Arnelos> hey NYE
nye> hello
nye> i will be idle, mostly. available again later
Arnelos> ok
* E_T sets mode: +o nye
opd> to recap
Arnelos> The thing is... we're seeking clarity for the endgame. If we know that our chances of actually *winning* the game are sunk, the next best thing we can do is attach ourselves to a potential winner and do everything we can to make sure THEY win
opd> OPD - here's the thing... with 28 ND units and 14 GoW riders either in or on our borders, even with our sizable military, we can't beat THOSE odds unless our luck is in the absolute extreme. We are at the point where we would be willing to basically offer GS what they want for intervention... including becoming a "vassal state" as Togas put it
E_T> Arnie, we will need to make an Embassy with GS to get the RoP
Arnelos> we already have an embassy
opd> opd> Are you saying that you're willing to forgo any chance of winning the game to see ND and GoW defeated?
opd> Arnelos> we can certainly try to bleed away and waste as much of their GA's as possible, but in the end, our GA can't start unless we get a GL for the Sistine (and get lucky) or get Navigation
opd> Arnelos> OPD - yes
opd> ok sorry about that
Arnelos> NYE needs the recap, keep posting quotes if you want
opd> I think thats it
nye> thanks
opd> should this happen it may be possible for RP to strike the killing blow to GoW and ND
Arnelos> E_T> Tell all Arnie
Arnelos> Arnelos> ok... ND has moved 28 military units either into our territory or into the jungle
Arnelos> opd> I'd be amazed if you could get MSS
Arnelos> opd> wow 28!!!!!
Arnelos> Arnelos> given the size of militaries and that we are still "average" to ND, we figure this leaves a skeleton defense in ND's cities
Arnelos> E_T> Arnie, it is a settler
Arnelos> opd> what is the make up of the forces
Arnelos> Arnelos> GoW has now 14 riders on our border, most of which were probably upgrades. This means that most of their money was spent upgrading horses to riders rather than spears to pikes... they probably have a small force of spears defending home. THey're probably counting on their GA funding more upgrades.
opd> if that is something you'd like
Arnelos> we'll see
Arnelos> I don't think that's as important as that the job gets done
Arnelos> we'll cross the bridge when and if we come to it
opd> ok as this is kinda important
opd> Other members of GS must be informed
Arnelos> that's fine
opd> also I gotta go to bed
Arnelos>
opd> So leave you with nye
Arnelos> ok, I've got to log the latest parts of this... my log currently only runs up to when E_T ducked out the last time
nye> oh oh. i am mid turn in isdg.
nye> i have to blast back to work to lock up. i can return between 9.30 and 10.30 or so
E_T> that's o.k., hopefully OPD can get a few more GS people in here
E_T> OPD, can you e-mail them to come here?
Arnelos> ok, log updated
opd> I emailed SR but I guess he's asleep
Arnelos> NYE - Togas should be online later
opd> will try Nbarclay
Arnelos> he's currently driving home from work
nye> better to reconvene a bit later
E_T> We will be here
nye> ok. i will return later
E_T> we aren't going to play our turn for a while atill
E_T> *still

Obviously, should GS actually give us a treaty of such a sort to sign, such a treaty will need to be agreed to by the House of Lords before being enacted and signed by the King on behalf of Spain.

Everyone is welcome to comment on this and our military situation in the forum, of course. This is not final if people have strenuous objections.

[BigFree]

Chat with nye of GS; Semi-confidetial:

Session Start: Sat Jul 19 01:34:01 2003
Session Ident: nye
[01:34] BigFree- hey nye, you busy?
[01:34] nye- i have a moment
[01:34] BigFree- just wanted you intial thought on proposal Arnelos sent you
[01:34] BigFree- I though it was long
[01:35] nye- it is a good start
[01:35] nye- it is being received well
[01:36] BigFree- cool
[01:36] nye- have you played the turn yet?
[01:36] BigFree- you have my personal word that RP will be forever alligned with GS
[01:36] BigFree- no
[01:36] BigFree- tommorow
[01:36] BigFree- we will not be gifting anycites to Lego btw
[01:37] nye- ok
[01:37] nye- we are leaning towards accepting. i did not want to say so. i wanted something more dramatic...
[01:37] BigFree- they have some sort of agreemnet with either GoW or ND about not interfereing
[01:37] nye- 'we are coming'
[01:37] BigFree- LOL
[01:37] BigFree- I will keep it hush then
[01:38] nye- well, feel free to relay it.
[01:38] nye- we have some concerns, but nothing major. i think
[01:38] BigFree- this makes for wonderful role play
[01:38] BigFree- which im sort of blah about
[01:38] BigFree- those guys wear me out
[01:38] nye- i think it does.
[01:39] BigFree- sometimes I wanna talk business
[01:39] BigFree- and al the do is "play"
[01:39] BigFree- *all they
[01:39] nye- i understand
[01:40] nye- all we do is talk, and all i want is a decision
[01:40] nye-
[01:40] BigFree- LOL
[01:41] nye- btw. re defence of Espana
[01:41] nye- can i chat with et and dejon before the turn?
[01:42] BigFree- yes, we plan to play tommorow
[01:42] nye- some things have occured to us. we would like to advise on
[01:42] BigFree- ET has not been that active in RP lately
[01:42] BigFree- cool
[01:42] BigFree- thanks
[01:42] nye- who is moi?
[01:42] nye- as i said, we are leaning towards the alliance
[01:42] BigFree- we willbe adding a worker to Zara
[01:43] nye- excellent!
[01:43] BigFree- WB
[01:43] nye- that was one of the points
[01:43] BigFree- size 7
[01:43] BigFree- yep
[01:43] BigFree- we are tyring to get some for Santiago
[01:43] nye- if the wall still perssists, you gain 50% to the pikes
[01:43] BigFree- yes
[01:43] BigFree- thnaks for thinking of us
[01:43] nye- is toledo threatened in the nest turn?
[01:43] BigFree- I only brought this up to Togas yesterday
[01:44] BigFree- no, Toledo is safe
[01:44] BigFree- Bilbao is threatened
[01:44] nye- no riders within range? good
[01:44] BigFree- actually, Bilbao is doomed
[01:44] BigFree- we have no units there
[01:44] nye- also. is that galley loaded?
[01:44] BigFree- I think not
[01:44] nye- too bad.
[01:44] BigFree- it unloaded it appears to us
[01:44] nye- we might have been able to rush some cats to you
[01:45] BigFree- it migh be, but we think not
[01:45] nye- chessey, but possib;e
[01:45] nye- no. your galley
[01:45] BigFree- ah
[01:45] BigFree- no, our galley is empty
[01:45] nye- ok. too bad
[01:45] BigFree- Im curious
[01:46] BigFree- how the heck would that help?
[01:46] nye- if it had a horse...
[01:46] nye- we tell you where to land
[01:46] BigFree- wait
[01:46] BigFree- you mean the Galley on you side?
[01:46] nye- yes
[01:46] BigFree- oh
[01:46] BigFree- yes
[01:46] BigFree- it is loaded
[01:46] nye- horse?
[01:46] BigFree- two horse
[01:46] nye- would you like to get them home sooner?
[01:47] BigFree- mostdefinately 12:4)1
[01:47] nye- ok. if gs accepts the cheese tactic. which could happen
[01:47] BigFree- LOL
[01:47] nye- we tell you where to land
[01:47] nye- you land
[01:47] nye- we gift a city to you
[01:47] nye- there are a couple of cats parked next to it
[01:48] nye- you accept the city
[01:48] nye- declare war
[01:48] nye- take the cats and go into the city
[01:48] nye- wuthg the cats and the horse
[01:48] nye- you offer peace and the city, accepted
[01:48] nye- we accept.
[01:48] nye- poof
[01:48] BigFree- wow
[01:49] BigFree- I get it
[01:49] nye- horse and cats in pamplona
[01:49] BigFree- NICE
[01:49] BigFree- hehe
[01:49] nye- yes
[01:49] BigFree- that is way cool
[01:49] nye- we are lookingat all ways we can help
[01:49] BigFree- thanks
[01:49] nye- before the main force can arrive
[01:50] nye- we are looking at the treaty arne sent at facevalue
[01:50] nye- most of us
[01:50] BigFree- cool
[01:50] nye- there are still some suspicious few
[01:50] BigFree- do you know arnenlos personally?
[01:51] nye- no
[01:51] BigFree- too bad
[01:51] BigFree- but youknow me and Togas
[01:51] nye- he is a good guy. i can tell form hoiw he is regarded by others
[01:51] BigFree- good
[01:51] nye- i must go.
[01:51] nye- what i have mentioned is not definite
[01:52] BigFree- we give our out of game promise that will will honor the "end of game" alliance
[01:52] nye- we must chat tomorrow
[01:52] BigFree- cool
[01:52] BigFree- let me get a time for you
[01:52] nye- i accept, bf. gs is another matter
[01:52] BigFree- undserstood
[01:52] nye- i will be up after 2pm msd
[01:52] BigFree- ok
[01:52] nye- bye
[01:52] BigFree- adios

[Arnelos]

pfft. NYE remembers me from the SPDG, that dummy

He was Chief Justice of the Court while I was President during Term 7 of the SPDG, nevermind months of the SPDG before that while he was Chief Justice and I held other positions in the government and sent him questions about legality of various things

Hell, I traded how many PMs with him while I was President because of the sheer number of rules questions that cropped up during my administration because of the new constitution he and Togas wrote?

'Doesn't know me!'



I'll have to refresh the poor guy's memory

[History Guy]

From Sir Ralph, an invitation, to the Pope, to play croquet...

Sir Ralph sent this to me:

Your Holiness,

please accept a humble greet from your lowly servant Frater Ralphus, missionary of the Holy Catholic Church in the Lands of the Storm. As you know, our warriors are crossing the sea to help fighting the black and the yellow plague, threatening the Holy See and the whole nation of Spain. As their shepherd, I am always with them, to give spiritual assistance in the hardships of the battle. Please forgive them, Your Holiness, that they are heathens and don't yet believe in The Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They still worship their own deity and call it the Holy Chicken. We will have hard work with them, but are not without hope.

They are mighty warriors and with no doubt will fight bravely for Spain and crush her treacherous enemies. This way, they also do their service to the Holy See and the whole Holy Catholic Church. Albeit nonbelievers, they deserve your blessing. May I humbly ask you to consecrate them and their glorious campaign? I hope, you are pleased with my hard work and may be one day will award me with the title of the Archbishop or even Cardinal of the Storm.

Your humble servant

Frater Ralphus, missionary of the Storm

To which I responded thus:

Good and true son of the Church,

I thank you for you kind letter. May God bestow His manifold blessings upon you and your flock!

My good and true friend and brother in Christ, I officially appoint you the sixth Cardinal of the Curia and Missionary Bishop of Egypt. Either I myself or the Archbishop of Spain and Missionary Bishop Polaris Winterius [Nuclear Winter] shall send a private messenger to you with the news on all official polls in the Madrid Curia, and you can cast your vote that way (that is, hopefully, until we’ve managed to figure out a way to get such things done in the general forum or something to that effect). In this position, you may vote on Papal elections and on decisions of the House of Cardinals. In fact, I am working on plans now to open a thread in the general forum to formerly allow free discussion by members of the Curia from all different countries. I would welcome any suggestions on how this may be effectively done.

As Missionary Bishop, you shall appoint fellow members of your country, trusted disciples of Christ, as priests or bishops of different provinces of Egypt. Also, you shall try your best diplomatically to convert other nations to Christ once the Church is firmly established in Estonia.

Also, let me stress how very pleased the Church by such warm reception in your lands. We shall certainly be very glad to bless and consecrate the forces under the command of Egypt in this campaign, and they shall carry with them the Papal Banner. I have sent along the flag of the Vatican so that it may be flown with the other colors of the bannermen. Even in such a war, God shall be glorified, for the oppressive Arabs and Chinese have long directed aggression towards the One True Faith and towards the True Cross. As such, the joint war of the Spanish and Egyptians armies has been declared by the Curia to be a great crusade.

Finally, I appoint you the third paladin of the Church, and have sent along a burly bodyguard of Swiss Guardsmen.

Thank you again for your letter. Go with my blessings, friend and brother. May God protect you.

I send greetings to my Christian brothers in Egypt and to the King of that fair country.

Pope Calixtus I

The chicken idolators are coming to the true faith!

Also, Persia has just converted, according to Missionary Bishop Winterius. It's official!

Pope Calixtus I

[History Guy]

Theseus sent this to me:

His Holiness the Pope Calixtus I,

Your Eminence, I am a simple man.

I speak not with the flowery words of the diplomat. I speak most often with the coarse language of the battlefield, and, infrequently, of a rhetoric to stir my men's souls.

For some time now, I have been... distraught. As your Holiness may not know, I lost my two sons, valiant young men, in the battle with Vox at Arashi9. Since that evil day, my life has been an empty shell; even watching the final elements of the Voxodus unfold has brought but a small spark of pleasure to me.

This Grand Alliance between Spain and Egypt, however... it has woken something in me, a desire and growing hunger for the world. I wonder if this is not fate, if this indeed does not mean something more than just politics and war, but if the Alliance, and the exposure to your ways and beliefs, might not have meaning for me personally.

I question my long-held belief in Chickenism, and wonder whether your way, following the teachings of Cathol, might be in my future. I would learn of you and from you...

But while I have had my eyes opened to these new wonders... that they be threatened by heathens such as these Chinese and Arabs, why, my anger BURNS on your behalf, and I will not stand for it!

Simply put, my sword is at your feet, in the hope that you will accept my defense.

* Theseus kneels and bows, holding out sword for blessing and benediction

To which I responded:

My dear friend and brother in Christ,

Bow not to me, for after all, I am but a man. It is to the cross that you must bow, for there is ever man's salvation. I only preside over the Church in the place of Christ, before whom ever knee shall bend.

Brother, I am moved by your story. You are clearly and good and honest man, and a true Christian man at that. What does it matter that you speak coarsely to your men? As a soldier, you are expected to do so. Surely, priests of the Church don't speak thus from the pulpits, but no one expects them to. A general speaks thus because his men speak thus, and the men look up to the general and wish to be like him, and likewise, the general wishes to be like his flock so that they will trust him, and when they trust him, there is no place that they will not storm for him. I commend you for your integrity as a man and a soldier. May God shower his blessings upon you and your men!

I deeply grieve over the loss of your two sons. It is a sad time in which we live, when children are buried by parents. But remember that this vale of tears is but a shadow, and that God knows and sees all. Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face.

I rejoice at the opening of thy eyes, brother. The Lord does great things, truly. Is there anything that He would not do for sinful man?

Come closer, my son.

*Theseus kneels for baptism. The Pope pours water over his head, and marks him with the Sign of the Cross.

I seal you with the Holy Spirit. Rise, all your sins have been washed away.

I bless you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Take with you this banner, my banner. Fly it above thy regiment as you march into battle. Let they who seek to bring this world to ruin know that God will not allow them to win this war.

My son, I appoint you as the second and final paladin of the Church in Egypt. Cardinal Ralphus serves with you as a paladin. You are a crusader of the Church. Know now that you are Paladin Theseus of the Order of St. Michael. I also appoint you a Cardinal of the Church if you wish to have the position. There shall be, in all, five cardinals appointed to the Curia from Egypt, just as there are five in Spain. Will you honor me by accepting, my friend and brother?

God's Will be done!

Pope Calixtus I

Pope Calixtus I