Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

[History Guy]

Odd chaps, these Legomen. They might have bothered to help us earlier and never had to worry that we'd have gone to someone else for help.

[Hot Mustard]

None of our diplomats responded to this idea in the 70AD turn thread, so I thought I'd post it here for consideration.

Originally posted by dejon
Something just struck me - has GoW actually attacked any units? I don't think so. They haven't entered their Golden Age yet! I have a daring idea for our diplomatic corps - reestablish contact with GoW - tell them we are fending off ND just fine and are now producing Knights to turn the tide, but would welcome their assistance in driving the Arabs northwards. The idea might intrigue them - they would be assured some quick victories with their Riders, their Golden Age would outlast ND's, and they can have all of Northern Bob. This is a prime time for an unsuspected backstab.

[Nuclear Winter]

Have we considered the fact that GS is in a combined action with GoW to get our cities without struggle? I mean, they bypassed Toledo, are heading straight to Pamplona...
I believe we should also try to keep getting help from Lego, we need Everything, since we´ll soon be rushing every single unit, IMHO. I will also try to contact MZ and the others from GoW to make this deal for backstabbing...

[Togas]

Both MZ (who I spoke with) and Unorthodox (who Arnelos spoke with) give different versions of apathy. MZ is more teasing but seems resigned and committed to killing Spanish soldiers. Unorthodox (as reported by Arnelos) seems disinterested in the game as a whole.

Legoland has promised aid at least 3 times so far and has yet to deliver it. GS has fully assisted us with gold last turn for upgrades, 2 free techs, and is trying to block the mountain passes so GoW can't get to us. GS is at war with ND and GoW and they have been there every turn to help us better plan our moves ... which is more than anyone on this team has done.

If anyone on this team feels they can somehow convince GoW to betray ND, please take a stab at it. If you can pull it off then you are greater than I. Their war against us is entirely illogical and all of the logical and persusasive arguments and pleading we have used to change their mind have been in vain. No amount of bribery, promises, or reason has swayed them so far. I am not optimistic that any further will change their minds.

--Togas

[Nuclear Winter]

I was talking to redstar and he thinks his team may have already tried to contact ours regarding porposals of help, but it struck me that the ambassdors (BF and aidun) are both at vacations , so I told them ot contact togas or me directly for talking about help, redstar promised to post in his forum

[Nuclear Winter]

I was talking to redstar and he thinks his team may have already tried to contact ours regarding porposals of help, but it struck me that the ambassdors (BF and aidun) are both at vacations , so I told them ot contact togas or me directly for talking about help, redstar promised to post in his forum

[Togas]

I just had another, more frank, and very heated discussion with Master Zen. Nearly an argument. However, it may have gotten through. MZ has put up several walls and excuses in play around this war, subconsciously blaming Spain by saying how we weren't trustworthy, etc etc which lead to them siding with ND. He and his team also feels that ND is their best ally and how ND could have attacked them long ago but didn't.

All if it is emotional justifications for doing the irrational. I pretty much yelled and argued with him to get him past that fluffy crap and back to the reality that this game is about winning, and that I and him both would do whatever it takes to win. In my case, I told him I'd do whatever it takes to stay alive.

He's fixated on GS being on Bob and tried to deflect my arguments by saying that we should backstab GS. With our armies fighting ND, I told him, that was absolutely impossible. His clever reply was that we should not fight ND, but he and I both knew that was just him being a jerk about it.

However, the whole argument ended like this:

MasterZen> but the only condition I would see for permitting a greatly-reduced Spain for existing would be to get GS out of the continent by force
MasterZen> I despise GS much more than I despise RP (well, I don't really despise RP)
Togas> your team sure hates us
MasterZen> especially since they have a much higher chance of winning than either of us
MasterZen> well what do you expect from a team which is asking us to backstab our biggest ally??
Togas> Whatever it takes. Send us terms for surrender that are serious, not the previous stuff about us just turning over all our cities
MasterZen> all your cities are belong to GOW :P
MasterZen> hahaha
Togas> MZ, you and I both know that whole "biggest ally" thing is just a temporary situation
MasterZen> are you sure you know everything?
Togas> I know you
Togas> You don't think that way, nor do I
Togas> we're both opportunists
MasterZen> it's sad we're on opposite teams, that I agree
MasterZen> we work much better together
Togas> agreed
MasterZen> but you don't know me 100%
MasterZen> the PTWDG is not the ISDG
MasterZen> evil plans have different twists
Togas> doesn't matter to me.
Togas> I have to do what I have to do.
Togas> which is keep my team alive
MasterZen> well, I'll post this log and encourage discussion
MasterZen> yes, I understand some of you have spamming needs in that forum
Togas> posting the log may not encourage discussion
MasterZen> my teammates are not mindless barbarians you know?
Togas> will probably just encourage the rampant "kill them all" sort of motivations we've seen.
MasterZen> our hatred is more against GS right now
Togas> but your Riders still avoid GS targets in favor of Spanish cities
MasterZen> and commit suicide against walled cities with elite pikes with catapuls? no thanks
Togas>
Togas> Funny how ND will attack walled Spanish cities with Vet pikes and catapults
Togas> but GoW won't send 14 Riders against a weakly defended GS city for fear that it will hurt them.
MasterZen> we have a slight logistics problem that ND doesn't
MasterZen> and our riders don't cost 60
MasterZen> I'll discuss this with the team
MasterZen> they are more open-minded than you think

[Aidun]

Diplomatic issues

The PM I sent to ZargonX:

Dear ZargonX,

Two days ago I had a meeting with King Togas. He demanded me to have a new private meeting with you to discuss most recent matters and issues. Until now I couldn't find you online, so that's why I'm sending you this PM.
Let me know when you see a chance to meet.
As you know time is not on our side, so the sooner, the better. I think I will not have any time available on this evening (wednesday evening) but maybe thursday?.

I hope to meet you soon,

Your friend and Spanish ambassador to Legoland,

Aidun

[Togas]

Got this PM from Aggie:

Togas you have fought well and honorably. But the time for resistance has come to an end. Would you care to discuss surrender.
Aggie

I wrote him back a short reply saying that we'd listen to their terms.

--Togas

[Togas]

These are their initial terms:

Aggiegow> That sounds good. The general terms so far discussed(and to be honest, they haven't been discussed much and are still broad) are as follows
Aggiegow> 1) RP cease all offesive action against ND/GOW
Aggiegow> 2) RP gifts Barcelona to GOW/ND when that cities is safe from Gs.
Aggiegow> 3) ND will donate a city for RP to have
Aggiegow> 4) RP will allow ND/GOW to occupy their capital after a city has been gifted to them.
Aggiegow> 5) Forces in the capital will move out of it, to ward off GS until ND/GOW can sieze it.
Aggiegow> 6) Catapults of rp will be positioned in such a way to be seized by nd or GOW.
Aggiegow> These terms are starting points and we will see how talks go. Nd has given general approval of these, but the final form must be approved by GOW and ND.
(some very annoyed discussion about how this isn't even reasonable)
...
Togas> We're a long ways off, then.
Togas> We need a reason not to just sit in Pamplona with our 20+ units and make you take it.
Togas> since you guys so elegantly avoiding fighting us at all
Aggiegow> well all negotiation start somewhere
Aggiegow> we did fight this turn though and that is why we decided it was time to offer a deal
Aggiegow> survival is the reason, we have the forces gathering to attack pamplona and it will fall
Togas> doubtful
Togas> you guys are too scared to even fight inferior GS stacks
Aggiegow> i appreciate that, well spoken
...
Togas> To get us to agree to anything, it has to be better than what we have right now. Now we have 2 cities, a hell of a lot of units, and 1 rather good city I might add.
Aggiegow> I'm just a lowly emperor and can't make deals on my on. But will inform my team of these terms
Togas> and I'm not all that fond of the idea of giving either of you guys cats. I'd rather give them to GS.
Aggiegow> that might be a deal breaker. By the way I must compliment you on the city gifting deals. That was a stroke of brilliance
Togas> I need to make this very clear:
Aggiegow> i understand.
Togas> We are not going to just agree to peace because we lost our undefended cities
Aggiegow> i understand that too.
Togas> we have been preparing for a mega battle and we'd welcome it. We have the units to do considerable damage
Togas> we know we're screwed, but we're somewhat bitter about this whole war
Aggiegow> I am sure of that and thats why I wanted a negotiated settlement.
Togas> and we're prepared to go out fighting unless we get a legit chance to keep playing this game
Aggiegow> That was before my time, i simply plan war
Togas> You guys need to come up with an offer. We'll see if GS can beat the offer.
Togas> ultimately, we'll take the offer that is best for Spain
Aggiegow> I would expect you to do nothing less
Aggiegow> ultimately I would like the following GS/RP on stormia and ND/GOW on Bob.
Aggiegow> you could check with GS on your options with them and get back to us
Togas> ??
Togas> Aggie, we're not really interested in that.
Togas> if you guys want us off, you may as well attack Pamplona.
Togas> and then fight GS too
Aggiegow> ok, well in that case we can suspend negotiations pending further developments. But I thank you for your openess. It is possibel the foreigh affairs department will come up with soemthing
Aggiegow> Like I said this is just a feeling out chat
Togas> get back to us
Aggiegow> I will.

[Arnelos]

RP-GoW Chat: Arnelos puts on his Poker Face

PART ONE

* Now talking in #GoW
Aggiegow> ok good
Aggiegow> hello arnelos
Arnelos> hello
Aggiegow> long time no see
* Togas has joined #gow
MasterZen> greetings
Aggiegow> welcome togas
Arnelos> indeed
Togas> hello
MasterZen> ahh.. SPDG reunion for you people... hahaha :P
Aggiegow> yap the whole goverment is here almost
* MasterZen should have joined poly ever since he started lurking in 2001...
Togas> we need MrWIA to drop in
Aggiegow> well the demogame got me out of lurking
Togas> drag in ET
MasterZen> I never even entered the forums
Aggiegow> yap
MasterZen> just the news section
Aggiegow> wow
MasterZen> isn't E_T a little busy right now?
Arnelos> so, GoW, what's up?
MasterZen> our city count?
Arnelos> heh
Togas> yeah, he's doing spreadsheets
Aggiegow> haven't seen him in a while. He was a great domestic minister
Arnelos> he's the DM for the ISDG
Arnelos> (now)
Aggiegow> alright
MasterZen> and a damn fine builder
MasterZen> we've been lucky with our builders in the ISDG... Dominae and E_T what more can you ask for in life...
MasterZen> anyway, business
MasterZen> I believe Aggie has been discussing "surrender" terms already
MasterZen> we're debating them ourselves
Arnelos> and?
Aggiegow> quite heatedly actually
Arnelos> I can imagine
MasterZen> first of all, I heard you mentioned that you would only accept if RP is kept as a "significant" force in the game
MasterZen> please define that
Togas> just get to your most recent proposal
MasterZen> well, we first want to know what significant means for you to see if it is compatible with what we have in mind...
Togas> just tell us what you have in mind
Aggiegow> we were thinking along the lines of what vox has
Arnelos> where?
MasterZen> antartica
MasterZen> j/k
MasterZen> look here's the deal
MasterZen> and again, it's not official since we still have to debate this ourselves...
MasterZen> some of us (me) would be in favor of keeping a very much reduced RP alive in echange for you switching sides and getting rid of GS from Bob
Togas> and the others?
Aggiegow> i too feel this way,
Aggiegow> well they want blood
MasterZen> We can convince them otherwise though if RP shows cooperation
MasterZen> after all RP is only standing thanks to the financial aid GS is giving you, GS is our #1 threat right now
Arnelos> what exactly did you have in mind in terms of "cooperation"?
Aggiegow> we were thinking of a cease fire with both sides showing goof faith acts
MasterZen> Bob for Bobians
Aggiegow> i mean good faith
MasterZen> some "goof" faiths wouldn't be bad too
MasterZen> like "oops, we goofed and attacked GS instead" :P
Aggiegow> thats really the goal
Aggiegow> as you noticed we set this up when we move our 2 riders off the mountain and away from you capital
Aggiegow> they are in a less threatening postion now
Arnelos> (smirk)
MasterZen> no but seriously, we would honor a cease fire if you would too
Arnelos> Have you considered that you offering us to backstab GS is similar to us offering you to backstab ND? This will be a hard sell to our forum.
MasterZen> You have much less to lose
Togas> Ok, that's where I have to break in and say something
Aggiegow> we know Gs forces can't take pampoloma
Aggiegow> ok
Arnelos> While true, since we have so little to lose, what's in it for us to backstab GS on your behalf rather than to just go out fighting on behalf of GS?
MasterZen> plus, you wanted to go out with a bang, with way you can go out with a bang and still survive
Togas> that we are too afraid to fight you in Pamplona where all our armies are?
Togas> all we know of GoW is that you sack defenseless cities, yet refuses to attack GS soliders
Aggiegow> no, we think you want a place were you can develope again and become a real force.
Togas> why don't you come fight us in Pamplona
MasterZen> Togas stop with the mind tricks
Togas> MZ, I'm not a ****ing idiot
Aggiegow> if we attack pamoploma we both lose. We lose troops you lose period. Nobody wins
MasterZen> neither ar us
Arnelos> In other words... given that we have so little to lose, as you put it, what are you offering that we would GAIN as opposed to many on our team desiring to simply fight the last battle and remain loyal allies?
MasterZen> survival plain and simple
Togas> and Spain isn't going to make this easy for you
Togas> either you give us something to make it worthwhile or stop wasting my time
MasterZen> we never said you would
MasterZen> but our objective was to wipe you out permanently and now we have changed that
Arnelos> how gracious of you
Togas> Oh, thank you for not wiping us out permanently
Aggiegow> give us an offer, so i have something to start with.
MasterZen> exactly, we're all ears
Arnelos> MZ - seriously... this is going to one damn hard sell... I'd need something more substantial than Spain being left with 1 city or a piece of tiny land.
Aggiegow> well tell us an idea
MasterZen> I never said 1 city
Arnelos> the balance of opinion on our forums has swung heavily in favor of just getting things over with in a final battle against GoW... changing their minds will not be easy unless they're given a hope of something other than just being your lap dogs
MasterZen> You would not be our lap dogs
Aggiegow> ok, that is fine. Believ me we face the same problem. so we need something . Aplan
MasterZen> we can set up permanent NAPs etc.
MasterZen> RP would be respected as an independent entity
Arnelos> ok, lets start with something basic
Arnelos> land
Arnelos> how much? where?
MasterZen> well this is just me, but we can start negotiating with perhaps 4 cities?
MasterZen> the "where" part would of course have to be negotiated with ND too
Arnelos> though the chances of you actually fulfilling your offer are far better than GS', their offer is I think roughly 5 times yours
MasterZen> 20 cities for you?
Aggiegow> The logical place would be the land that GS now occuppies
Aggiegow> i mean the west coast where the gifted cities are
Aggiegow> i mean east sorry
MasterZen> east
MasterZen> the barcelona area probably
Arnelos> look, I'm willing to consider this mostly because our chances of actually having a deal FULFILLED are higher with ND/GoW than with GS... but the deal itself has to be worth it
Aggiegow> fair
MasterZen> of course, that's why we're trying to negotiate this
MasterZen> please, we are not BSing, we are honest about this
Arnelos> I actually happen to believe you... you do not desire a Pyrrhic victory
Aggiegow> me and MZ are the minority, but becasue we are in the leadership we can try
MasterZen> we want your input too, you already ensured that GS would get involved look at it from our PoV:
MasterZen> would we rather have 4-6 GS cities on Bob, or 4-6 RP cities instead? Obviously RP
Arnelos> I could point out that it was you that ensured GS would get involved, but that's water under the bridge ;p
Aggiegow> yes it is
MasterZen> yep
Arnelos> We only resorted to brining in GS because you forced us to
MasterZen> not really though, nothing we could have offered them could have compared with what you did
MasterZen> in bargaining terms, you always could bring up the better deal, for desperation reasons
Aggiegow> lets not debate this, we nned to make headway on the present
Arnelos> true
MasterZen> agreed

[Arnelos]

PART TWO

PART 2

MasterZen> well, like I said, 4 cities is a start
MasterZen> we can decide on the area later but it would be in the barcelona area most likely
Arnelos> hmm...
Aggiegow> Both ya'll know I am a pragmatist
Aggiegow> so I'll do what will help the most
Arnelos> to be honest, you'd have to figure I'm just strining you along if I said my team would be ok with 4 cities
MasterZen> wait, I thought you were a meteorologist :P
MasterZen> we don't expect definitive answers right now
MasterZen> consider this pre-negotiations
Arnelos> that said, I can see how you'd see 4 cities as realistic
Aggiegow> hehe
MasterZen> same with us of course
Aggiegow> yes indeed
Arnelos> this is not going to be easy
Aggiegow> brb, looking at map
MasterZen> it's not
Arnelos> I suppose what we need to get a handle on is your maximum number of cities and our minimum
MasterZen> we have die-harders on both our teams
Arnelos> die harders can be out-voted if we can convince enough people
Aggiegow> but the dislike for GS could be used to sway them
Arnelos> because the true die harders will just never vote in favor
MasterZen> MY opinion is around 6 cities max
MasterZen> note *MY*
MasterZen> or we can settle on a geographical area and you can try cramming in as many as you want
Arnelos> I assume ND is getting our West?
MasterZen> ICS!
MasterZen> yes most likely
Arnelos> what is GoW getting?
MasterZen> your northeast
Arnelos> hmm...
Arnelos> I have an idea
Togas> you guys got the shaft
Togas> have fun taking it from GS
Arnelos> I could offer you something similar to what I offered GS
MasterZen> Togas, we haven't reached anything finite yet
Arnelos> We keep most of our south and west, along with Pamplona... We make sure that you guys will always have supplies of our luxuries
Arnelos> along with helping against GS
Arnelos> that's a perpetual agreement to always give you our luxes
Aggiegow> that will be good
MasterZen> well, we'd have to see a map proposal first
Arnelos> also, locked science trading alliance
MasterZen> "most of our south and west" seems like more than enough for more than 6 cities
Arnelos> our cities in the south would be less corrupt... it's better for you if we help you in research that way
Arnelos> any city you found down here will be hopelessly corrupt
Aggiegow> that is correct
MasterZen> I have an idea
Aggiegow> lets here it
MasterZen> I'm looking at the map right now
MasterZen> the mountain range forms a nice natural boundary
Arnelos> which range?
Arnelos> there are a lot of them
MasterZen> the one that separates your northern from southern cities
Togas> The range that runs S of Pamplona
MasterZen> yes
Togas> west = east
Arnelos> so GoW would get Pamplona, Toledo, Bilbao, Madrid area?
MasterZen> well GoW and ND would decide how to split the land among us
Togas> ND gets Cow valley
Arnelos> whatever, it's not staying with us then
MasterZen> yes, that area would most likely be ND's
MasterZen> perhaps the river by NM would be the other boundary?
Arnelos> which side would Madrid itself fall on?
MasterZen> well it looks like our side
MasterZen> the 'real' border would be after NM's cultural borders
MasterZen> you can fit more than 6 cities in that area
MasterZen> you can fit 8 cities in there using 3 and 4-tile spacing, 9 if you really want to economise
MasterZen> a capital 2-3-3 from Merida would be bestial
Arnelos> Well, it looks like a bit more of a clarified border is coming along
MasterZen> this is really "rough draft" stuff, but I would in principle agree to it
Arnelos> hmm... I'm pretty sure the initial reaction to this in our forum will be rather hostile, but it was also very hostile to every agreement we've ever signed with GoW
MasterZen> GoW no longer sees RP as its threat
Arnelos> true enough
Arnelos> but RP still sees GoW as the spawn of satan
MasterZen> as long as it doesn't, our more reluctant members won't have that strong leverage
Aggiegow> Well not me I hoep. i'm a kinder gentler GOW
MasterZen> look this is premature stuff I'm going to reveal:
MasterZen> Aggie will most likely be our next emperor
Arnelos> the convincing on our end is going to be damn tough... we can't use game-based terms of "we can win doing this" to convince them like before
MasterZen> Aggie is a very rational person
MasterZen> I will continue to be CoFA. And you know I like you guys
Arnelos> like is not an issue in this game and we both know it, MZ
Arnelos> at least not for people like us, it doesn't seem to be
MasterZen> I am much more receptive than if GF or H_E were negotiating this and you can't deny that
Arnelos> besides... the issue is not how much GoW likes or dislikes RP... RP is no longer a threat to GoW. The issue is how much RP members like or dislike GoW... and that's going to be the central focus of the debate.
Togas> I wouldn't give GF and H_E the courtesy of hearing their "offer"
Aggiegow> here is something else you can put your hat on. We will guarentee your safety. Thus no need to ahve a large military and you can concentrate on libaries/univ/etc
MasterZen> of course, we will not make you sign anything limiting your forces
Aggiegow> ofcourse
MasterZen> full independence and free will, as big as army as you can maintain is fine with us
Aggiegow> i was just pointing out a positive
MasterZen> as long as you don't ally with GS, we can consier a permanent no-loophole NAP in effect
Arnelos> see, that's where the problem lies
Arnelos> we're ALREADY allied to GS
Arnelos> this requires breaking that alliance
MasterZen> trust me, neither Vox nor Lego will really care, much less ND or GoW
Aggiegow> you could declare yourself neutral. That is the real point
MasterZen> backstabbing is only bad when you have people who will frown upon it
Arnelos> The issue isn't so much whether OTHER teams will care, it's whether our OWN team will care
Arnelos> GS bailed us out, are we now supposed to betray them for doing so?
Aggiegow> true and reasonable. That why I mentioned the culture you can build. You CAN win
Togas> you guys have no idea what we've been through
Aggiegow> no we don't
Togas> this assault has been an emotional rollercoaster, fueling up emotions that have been very extreme
MasterZen> I can imagine
Togas> and our sense of gratitude towards GS for their aid and assistance is greater than I can describe
Aggiegow> yah, that is one thing I don't like about multiplayer, your against real peoiple with real emotions. Thats what brought me to the table.
MasterZen> well, it was only because they want bobain land Togas
Togas> Arnelos's is far more rational about this than I am
MasterZen> GS DESPISED RP just a few turns before you suddenly became good friends
MasterZen> GS saw the opportunity and took it.
Arnelos> GS despised a lot of people, including us, true
MasterZen> and me :P
Arnelos> I will fully admit that I only got GS to go along with this by putting a lot of hard liquor in the negotiating room
MasterZen> hahahaha
* MasterZen offers Arnelos a Dom Zenignon 10 BC
Togas> We made it worth their while to get involved, however, they have kept their word and have caused great rejoycing amongst our people in our darkest hours.
MasterZen> well from what you just said about your treaty it's pretty much moot for RP to keep "most of it's south and west" since that has fallen into ND and GoW hands
MasterZen> yet GS still has their cities...
MasterZen> it's an all-win situation for GS
Togas> GS earned those cities, and they were freely given.
Arnelos> hmm....
Arnelos> I think we should each take back to our teams what we've discussed here so far... if it's not possible to convince people, it's not possible... but I'm willing to take this back
MasterZen> so am I
Togas> I'm not looking forward to the thread, personally, but we'll see how it goes.
Aggiegow> ok, Here's another item I am willing to do to show good faith.
Arnelos> the thread is likely to be a bloodbath, but so was the GoW alliance thread
MasterZen> none of our threads ever make more than 2 pages :P
Aggiegow> well will allow a force of kngihts/pike and catapults to postion themselves next to slamanca. I promise we will not attack it without warning. That way Salamanca basically becomes a hostage of faith
Aggiegow> ie you get first strike
Arnelos> :shrug:
Togas> ?
Arnelos> we're not exactly in a position where that means a great deal
Aggiegow> well it would show your people good faith, that is fine then
Aggiegow> i was trying to show all that we were negotiating in good faith.
Togas> that's alright. We're going to hold tight in Pamplona for now.
Arnelos> I think the good faith measure needed is to just keep the riders away
Aggiegow> ok
Togas> I appreciate the thought, but I can't think of any reasonable request to ask instead.
Arnelos> if you wanna send 'em against GS, be our guest, just not Pamplona
Aggiegow> I understand
MasterZen> so we can consider this a cease-fire while continuing the negotiations?
Togas> I need to first consult with Dejon & BigFree before we agree to a ceasefire
Aggiegow> rrasonable
Togas> but it's not like we have an army stationed outside of your cities. We're no danger to you
Aggiegow> that it true
Aggiegow> we offered
Togas> Any chance ND will actually agree to any of this?
MasterZen> ok, I know I'm MZ, the "evil plan" maestro and everything I always say is always taken with a grain of salt but I HONESTLY want this to succeed, and will do all I can to get both GoW and ND to agree
Aggiegow> they hate GS too. They could well. But we'll have to ask them
Aggiegow> we both agree a GS presence is unacceptable
Aggiegow> we might have our differences but we are all Bobians
Togas> Are GoW & ND married now?
Arnelos> MZ - as explained before, I agree because it's in your interests for this to succeed... as little of a threat as we are, we are still capable of bleeing ND and GoW for units... units you'd rather use against GS
Aggiegow> nope
Arnelos> that's really all that's left... an attack on Pamplona bleeds a few units
MasterZen> the wedding is 10 turns from now
MasterZen> you are invited
MasterZen> :P
Arnelos> (snicker)
* MasterZen wonders who's the ***** and who's the butch... LoL
Arnelos> ND is the butch
MasterZen> boo
MasterZen> we take turns actually
Arnelos> they've done the heavy lifting in this war and you guys know it
Togas> we're just wondering if this whole ND/GoW thing is long term.
MasterZen> nothing in civ is ever long term
Arnelos> somebody has to win
Aggiegow> It last as long as it last is the wya it goes. I am new to multiplayer so this is all new to me
Aggiegow> it is less satisfying nowing you are causing sombody distress
MasterZen> btw, one more thing...
MasterZen> if you will notice Salamanca is currently size 1
MasterZen> which means that if GS takes it, it will raze
Arnelos> such is the way with war
MasterZen> since that city would fall within your side of the mountain range we would agree to secure it from destruction but you would need to block that road
Togas> won't happen
MasterZen> suit yourself
Aggiegow> they only have 5 units in range so it is doubtful
Aggiegow> but we thought we'd mention it
MasterZen> just note that we could have razed it knowing that
Arnelos> :shrug:
Togas> Salmanaca would prefer to be razed than occupied.
MasterZen> salamanca would prefer to return to its original owner eventually
Aggiegow> not an issue, just noticed it when we were looking st the map
Arnelos> I think we're basically done here... gotta log this and then start a thread in the RP forum
MasterZen> ok
Aggiegow> fine
Aggiegow> it was a good start
Aggiegow> hopefully we can get common ground
Arnelos> don't bet on it, but it's possible
Togas> perhaps. There's a lot of ground to cover and a lot of bad blood though.
MasterZen> we don't make any bets anymore
Aggiegow> nope
MasterZen> like I said, we have no more incentive to viewing RP in bad blood
Aggiegow> at least we(mz and I) are for whatever will make dislodging GS easier.
Togas> we're the ones that got raped. The bitterness is very big on our side.
Togas> afk a bit.
MasterZen> we understand, that's why we are open for amends in this respect
MasterZen> and you have no more reason to distrust us now that we don't consider you a threat
Arnelos> MZ - that's not true and we both know it... but that's beside hte point
* Togas is now known as TogasAFK
* GhengisPartyTime has joined #GoW
Arnelos> I need to write this post and we seem to be done here... so lemme log it all and post
Aggiegow> ok thanks for coiming arnelos

[Arnelos]

Simultaneous RP Internal Chat between Togas and Arnelos

Togas> 4 meeting in #gow
Togas> no password
Togas> lets just sit back and see what they say
Arnelos> exactly
Arnelos> I'm just asking them to continue
Arnelos> nodding and smiling, as it were
Arnelos> you care to take that one?
Arnelos> good cop/bad cop
Togas> please kill me now
Arnelos> lol
Togas> I'm going to try to keep from blowing up at them
Arnelos> these guys are idiots
Togas> I nearly said "Thanks but no thanks" when they said they first want our cooperation
Arnelos> just hold it...
Arnelos> at the worst, we can at least play along...
Arnelos> perhaps we can even work something out where we can feint a "surrender" while still working with/for GS
Arnelos> I'm willing to play with it
Togas> I don't see it happening
Arnelos> probably not
Arnelos> but I just wanna see
Togas> GoW is too distrusting to allow us to take advantage of them
Togas> I just can't think of anything that I'd stomach
Togas> maybe I'm just too bitter to seriously consider it
Togas> this whole "4 cities" thing isn't any better than Vox on a reservation
Togas> and while our chances aren't much better with GS, there is something more noble about fighting it out.
Arnelos> 4 cities is laughable
Arnelos> I'm all for fighting it out... and besides, I think we can do better than just fight it out
Arnelos> I want to play along mostly because I want them to believe we CAN'T survive if we side with GS... I believe we can
Togas> go ahead
Arnelos> 4do you think it helps GS more if we get GoW and ND to delay their attack on Pamplona due to false peace terms and charge GS believing we will support them (and then we don't) or.... if we just let them charge Pamplona and lose troops?
Togas> we'll have to ask NYE what he thinks
Arnelos> hmm... I should chat with NYE
* WhiteBandit has joined #civ3rp
Togas> would we even consider it?
Togas> we wind up in the South-west
Arnelos> I'm chatting with NYE... consulting him on this
Togas> this is about as much as I had expected
Togas> your thoughts?
Arnelos> I'm talking to NYE...
Arnelos> trying to get him to decide whether it's tactically advantageous to play along or not
Arnelos> there's no question we're not REALLY going to go for this garbage
Togas> gotcha
Togas> I'm pondering it, but I just can't see it working with ND and GoW allied so tightly.
Arnelos> let's agree to just take this back to our team for discussion... if it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere... We won't REALLY open it for discussion, other than whether we should play along
Arnelos> 12do you think these guys REALLY think we're even possibly biting at this?
Togas> Aggie as their new leader IS a good sign, however we ultimately need to break apart the ND/GoW alliance.
Togas> They think we are. I invited them to propose it earlier
Arnelos> hmm
Arnelos> how on earth do we break apart the ND/GoW alliance? I can think of only one conceivable way... victory (the line I keep repeating)
Arnelos> and I don't want to give them victory
Togas> IF we give them victory AND it ensured that they fight each other, I'm all for it.
Togas> but I'm seeing far too many signs of a linked alliance
Arnelos> locked, yes
Togas> locked
Togas> and so long as they remain locked, we must lock ourselves to GS.
Arnelos> The best thing this chat did was create a fascade that the RP-GS link might not be so strong
Arnelos> in reality, the RP-GS couldn't possibly be stronger
Togas> good
Togas> it goes with our nature, though.
Togas> we have always been sheer machiavellian opportunists
Arnelos> indeed... that's why they believe us
Arnelos> the reality is that even a true opportunist would see no opportunity in this agreement... it's not worth it
Arnelos> I think the opportunity lies in helping GS... if they can gift a city on Elucidium to us to keep us in the game for sure even if we lose Pamplona and we both continue the campaign against ND/GoW, some or much of Bob may be claimed... and we can be gifted that land to manage it at near zero corruption as promised in our alliance agreement
Togas> the thing is, I do not believe GS can beat ND + GoW with them in their GA
Togas> GS has the deck stacked against them.
Arnelos> it's a gamble as to whether GS can pull it off even if ND and GoW lose lots of troops against Pamplona, but I'm willing to gamble it... especially since it's the right thing to do AND we'd get a ****load more land and power out of it, even if tied to GS
Arnelos> at the very worst, we cause ND and GoW to waste more of their GA's on military units
Arnelos> military units thrown against hte walls of Pamplona
Arnelos> and then the cities on Bob gifted to GS
Arnelos> ideally, ND and GoW waste the bulk of their GA's in a war of attrition against hostile forces in southern Bob rather than building toward any victory
Arnelos> which means the game lies with GS and Lego
* E_T_doing_spreadsheets is now known as E_T_outside_smoking
Arnelos> let's cut the discussion and just leave it
Togas> brb
Togas> end the discussion with them, open one with GS
Arnelos> right
Arnelos> I proposed to NYE that we need to have an RP-GS chat about this
Togas> but do log it for future reference

[Arnelos]

Simultaneous Arnelos-NYE Discussion

Arnelos> need to talk to you
nye> ok
Arnelos> GoW is offering us terms in which we would keep the southern portion of our lands in return for backstabbing GS. WE have --NO-- intention of actually doing this, we're just curious whether you think we should play along or not...
Arnelos> lemme repost the question I asked Togas
Arnelos> Arnelos> 4do you think it helps GS more if we get GoW and ND to delay their attack on Pamplona due to false peace terms and charge GS believing we will support them (and then we don't) or.... if we just let them charge Pamplona and lose troops?
Arnelos> Togas> we'll have to ask NYE what he thinks
Arnelos> Arnelos> hmm... I should chat with NYE
Arnelos> right now I'm just playing along for 2 reasons:
nye> wow
Arnelos> 1 - I want to convince GoW that we do not believe we can survive with aid from GS, but could with aid of GoW... I think emboldening them is the right move
Arnelos> 2 - It's better to just play along until I get some advice on whether I should
nye> cool
Arnelos> quite frankly, they're scared of you guys, which is good
nye> what is the situation, btw. shots would help
Arnelos> shots
Arnelos> ask Togas
Arnelos> but what I need from you is which would be more tactically advantageous (since we're only going to get a tactical advantage for it)... playing along or not?
nye> what would happen if you play along?
nye> i need a little time now
nye> i guess you are talking to gow?
nye> i will keep this channel open
Arnelos> yes
Arnelos> I'm talking to GoW
nye> what do we gain be playing along, and what does it cost us?
Arnelos> that's sorta what I was asking you... but here's my thoughts
Arnelos> GoW and ND may be more likely to charge after the GS cities, whether that's a gain or a loss I don't know without thinking that through
Arnelos> Our mobility on attack is low... so even if ND and GoW left their backs turned, so to speak, could we effectively take advantage of it?
Arnelos> also, the pyrrhic victory they might gain against Pamplona might deplete their numbers favorably for you guys... another reason NOT to play along... but then again, they might not attack Pamplona anyhow
nye> well, talk to them. see what results. i can say nothing while in the dark about the siutuation, and those talks
Arnelos> right
Arnelos> We should hold a GS-RP chat to discuss wisdom of playing along or not

[BigFree]

I hope I'm not stepping on toes here, just trying to get us some very much needed resources. If Lego feels that ND and GoW will have Bob to themselves, then they might be willing to see that that does not happen. I'm not sure how the before game Pact was worded, but I thought I would throw that in for good measure.

I'm ashamed of the way the PTWDG Forum has gone on lately. People need to back up and realize that it is only a game and not to make personal attacks. Too many people are trying to justify their reasons for doing this or that when in fact, no one but those who choose to listen will believe any of it. Oh well.

I'm writting now to inquire about possibly getting Horses and/or Dyes from Lego. As you can see things are not going very well against ND and GoW. Even with GS's help, we are surely lacking.

We fear that ND and GoW will soon have all of Bob to theirselves. Horse's, and thus Knights, might be able to hold them off. We just want a stalemate at this point; but are likely looking at extinction without help from Lego. RP and Lego made a before game Pact to help each other out and to be "most favored nations" between us. RP now meakly asks for Lego to assist us. If you could spare one of your Horse's or even get one from Vox (We have no trade routes to them); we might be able to hold off ND and GoW from taking any more cities from us.

If we could just get to Navigation as well....we could have our own GA and help ourselves against these two foes.

If this needs to be seen by your team, you have permission to post this in your own private forum.

Thanks for your time.

BigFree
Representative of Role Play