Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

[civman2000]

If it is a realistic possibility that we are planning for that hostilities would resume within 20 turns (that would require the truce to be broken), I think staying at war is OK. If we have no real hope of landing on Bob that soon and there is little reason to suspect or fear a landing in Stormia, we must make peace.

[Hot Mustard]

As I said, I understand the reasoning. If most people think we should remain at war, and Togas agrees, then go for it.

I stated my opinion on the matter. No amount of rewording and passionate arguing is going to change my stance.

I feel that the community of MPDG players has to play with integrity and honour. Any game like Civ3 will always have exploitable flaws, as well as loopholes (that are not really flaws) that human players can take advantage of.

By the way, the C3CDG at MZO has made a good start in documenting and categorizing such things, in case anyone is interested.

Haven't we already abused the game mechanics (unit teleporting) enough?

I prefer to take the high road, even if it means disadvantage or death to us in this game.

[CiverDan]

On the whole WW thing, I feel that staying at war solely for WW purposely is abusing the game mechanics, when neither party has any real means on attacking the other. In our case, there is no phyical way for a landing to occur near us, as us/GS have all coastal tiles defended. Also, we have no real capability to launch an attack on Bob either for the time being. As such, i think peace for the time being word be in our best interest as it would prevent anyone from "crying foul".

[Aidun]

Honour, fairness. Those are nice words with worthy meanings.
The lurkers among us who now turn up at the end of the war (and there is no sarcasm in this) have missed a history that we have seen happening before our own eyes and with which we have been involved for months.

I fully agree with Dejon, he is right on this point.

It is but cotroversial if this game is still a fair game and one of honour. Many times it was stated by GoW that they hated us and wanted us out of the game. Vondrack, dictator of Legoland, has a personal feud with Togas and maybe more of us (perhaps he still hates me too).
There have been discussions about other abuses of game mechanics by the parties in the war.
And last but not least, the ancient promise of Legoland to favor us, has still not been fulfilled, though we too have a part in this.

You convinced me about the technical aspect of warweariness.
Now I feel more for what Nuclear Winter is saying. When the moment comes when we can convince ourselves that this game is really one of honour and fairness and not one of hatred, abuse, and empty promises, we should play with hounour and fairness, and until then, we shouldn't be naively playing fair, like the fairest boy of the class, but be pragmatic: get what you can, by whatever way.

Aidun

[Nuclear Winter]

I tell ya, when vondrack instead of helping the favoured nation that we were supposed to be instead sent troops to N Bob to protect GoW he was doing the worst backstab ever. I cannot agree to playing "fair" to those chaps.
Will excessive diplomacy once more be the undoing of our team?

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by Nuclear Winter
... the worst backstab ever. I cannot agree to playing "fair" to those chaps.

Do you agree that backstabs are a part of normal play in this game? I fail to see how they justify us to play unfairly in response.

Originally posted by Nuclear Winter Will excessive diplomacy once more be the undoing of our team?

That's a different matter entirely, and a lesson I think we've all already taken away from this game.

[Togas]

received this PM from Vox:

Greetings to Togas and the many fine people of Roleplay.

Regarding the potential deal for printing press, Vox Controli would be happy to sell the tech for gold or gold per turn or any combination of the two. We are seeking 250 gold for the tech, but would be willing to deal further if that price is too steep. We do realize the situation RP is in (since we are experiencing it ourselves ).

Regards,

Rhoth

[Togas]

how about we ask them if 10gpt would be OK for Printing Press?

--Togas

[BigFree]

Sure, but ask if GS thinks we should or not; they could have a deal going for it already.

[Togas]

Greetings to Togas and the many fine people of Roleplay. Vox Controli agrees to your offer of 10gpt for 20 turns (totalling 200 gold at the end) for the technology Printing Press. We will finish the research in 500ad. I have included a formal agreement signed by myself on behalf of Vox Controli. If this is acceptable to Roleplay please sign the deal and PM back to me. Pleasure doing business with you.

Regards,

Rhoth



The nation of Vox Controli agrees to send the technology of printing press-unaccepted, upon completion of research at 500ad, to the nation of Roleplay. Upon receipt of printing press, Roleplay will send 10 gold per turn-accepted to Vox Controli and Vox Controli will accept for completion of this deal.

If Roleplay does wish to start the 10gpt payment to Vox Controli before Vox Controli completes research of printing press then Vox Controli will send printing press-accepted to Roleplay upon completion of research.


Signed by Rhothaerill on behalf of Vox Controli

Signed by [xxx] on behalf of Roleplay

[Togas]

We've moved six units from the east coast which you can fill. One of your four workers will presumably stay on that tile.

We have astronomy next turn, which, if you were to have it would enable you to take a sea-route to Stomia, rather than running the gauntlet on the GoW coastline. Therefore we recommend that your galley goes back SE along the coast. We have lookouts, and no enemy ships are nearby. The northern route is dangerous and hard to screen as GoW can push galleys out of Port Isolation.

We would probably be hoping to have Banking sooner than 20 turns, as our major cities are completing universities at the moment. Rather than offering us gold as payment for the techs we are giving you, can you put the research pedal down to get banking faster?

We are slightly concerned at the prospect of 'emotion and vengeance' holding sway within RP. It may be that there will be no war between our old adversaries as long as RP remains at war with GoW/ND. We have seen 13 Lego Knights still guarding the GoW coastline. Unless Lego are hurt, they will win. GS fear that if RP's policy is only for vengeance, GS will have to pay a price. We are already being held responsible by GoW for any permanent cold war that could arise.

[BigFree]

Fine, if GS asks that we give peace to GoW and/or ND, then we should do it, however reluctantly.

[Togas]

sent to MZ: (regarding his peace proposal)

MZ,

I have posted this to our forum and there is SOME discussion on it, but thus far it hasn't been all that happily accepted. Mostly just me and Arnelos saying "come on, let's move on"

Someone suggested that if GoW was willing to help fund the rebuilding of our beaten-down nation so that we can become a peace-loving democracy (ala Iraq), there may be a chance for a serious reconciliation and closure. It is time for alliances to shift as wars come to an end and new enemies emerge, especially now that you've given all of our former land to ND. Heck, it's Spain they all want back, not so much GoW's land.

But right now most of the guys just still hate GoW. Same old feelings. I'm not sure what to do to fix it.

--Togas

[Arnelos]

From Cort Haus of GS:

Greetings, friends at RP.

When you open the save you shoud find Astronomy in there - with the warmest compliments of GS. We can tell you that GoW and ND do not have these yet, so please observe NDA conditions, though Lego and Vox do have Astronomy.

We have studied our economy and concluded that despite your 15 turns or so of 1 scientist research of the tech, it is best for us to research Banking immediately, which we are doing at a four-turn pace. We calculate the banks we build will boost our research to win back these four turns by the end of the era.

We are running a defecit however, so we must ask you to help us with gpt. It's good value, we're sure you agree If we do the research, while you contibute GPT, we can both be in the industrial era in no time. GS commercial output will surge over the next 10-15 turns as the program of post-war economic builds starts to bear fruit.

So apart from the cats for your sea-wall, which we are pleased to see rolling out from your cities, we would suggest that you build markets, aquas and harbours to boost pop and pump out the gold. You'll want to keep yourselves some gpt for rushing some builds, so offer us what you can. We're running a 20gpt defecit at the moment, so getting that covered would help.

Perhaps Navigation or Democracy at 40-turn could be considered - or maybe the scientist would even be better working mines and fields. This would be something to discuss and consider.

Meanwhile, your galley can return home safely via the sea now, and we will shield it as it gets close to your port. We can also use galleys to screen the coastline from GoW ships, allowing you to take up the north and westerrn positions on the sea wall when the time comes.

Regards,

Cort Haus.
on behalf of your good friends Gathering Storm.

[Arnelos]

I just sent this back to Cort Haus:

Cort Haus,

Received your letter and I've posted it to the RP internal forum. We'll certainly look at ways that we can expand our commerical output and I think the team would be quite welcome to providing what GPT income we can to support your research effort and reach the Industrial Age at increased speed. Afterall, the primary reason for having Roleplay Team control these northern cities is that we can build them up more efficiently then GS might on your own and then supply the fruits of that labor for the alliance to use for joint benefit.

In other issues, the team is currently discussing the issue of making peace with Glory of War (who has asked for it) and New Demogyptica (which, as of yet, has not). It had been my opinion that we needed to have a discussion with Gathering Storm about the prospects for the immediate future and whether we would be fighting either of them within the next 20 or so turns, the ONLY case under which I felt it would be ok for us to maintain a state of war (it should be noted that there are a few on the team who want to maintain war regardless, however).

It has been pointed out to me by BigFree, however, that apparently your team believes the best course of action is for us to immediately sign peace treaties with both GoW and ND because you believe this may help precipitate the inevitable GoW-ND or GoW-Lego conflict at an earlier date. I agree that bringing about the inevitable fracturing of their alliance must be the primary aim of GS/RP foreign policy and your apparent belief that quick peace treaties may help to precipitate this does make some sense.

So even if it were to lead to resumed hostilities within a relatively short timespan (thus perhaps giving our chosen opponent a happiness BONUS rather than continued deficit when we redeclare on them), it may be a worthwhile strategy given that we need to fracture their alliance first. Regardless, the balance of the team still seems committed to the idea that we'd like to get some sort of lasting settlement with GoW out of these negotiations which might involve something from GoW to us in return for us agreeing to such a settlement.

I'm ready to agree to pursue that with GoW, but obviously RP Team needs to consult with Gathering Storm on the issue, given that if GoW wants anything binding into the future, that could be problematic if the future plans of the alliance lead elsewhere, nevermind that our treaty with Gathering Storm obligates us to consult you on such negotiations.

So I would very much like RP and GS to meet in chat in the near future to discuss the issues surrounding the alliance's plans for the immediate future and thus how some particulars that may come up in RP peace negotiations with GoW and ND should proceed as a result.

I honestly don't know Togas' schedule or that of anyone else, so I can't speak for them on that count. As for me, I'm likely going to be out of town from this Thursday evening through Sunday. I'll be around both before then and after then if we can chat at those times. If you want to chat this weekend, my recommendation is that you make sure you get at least one of Togas, BigFree, or Aidun in chat with you (preferably more than one along with anyone else who happens to be around).

Following that, we need to progress with any GoW negotiations and get this matter settled and behind us, as I think we agree.

It's good to hear from you guys.

- Arnelos