Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

[adaMada]

Here's a draft of a message I could send to Panzer. I wanted to post it here because of the sensititivity of the issue, and to give everyone the opportunity to pass along comments and suggestions. I honestly don't love the wording of the message itself -- it doesn't give much of a reason for changing what we accepted earlier (Writing once we have it) besides internal team pressures. It's mainly my fault -- I was counting on their warrior being well out before we got writing, so I didn't emphisize the "your warrior must be out first" clause enough. Anyway, I'm trying to play it off as forced by internal team pressures and not a major change, but if anyone has any better ideas about how to describe it (or even how I should word the message), let me know.

Panzer,
We'd like to change the timeline on the deal a bit to make it closer to what we originally planned, before we spent several days haggling. It'd still be the same basic deal, but we'd be more comfortable with the timeline rearranged a bit . (I'm sorry this wasn't included earlier -- it was a requirement that I didn't forsee).

We'd propose the following changes:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding now. GoW begins warrior removal.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing for 60g after the removal of the GoW warriors
-Removal of warriors: Moving them north of our northernmost city, Saragossa.

This'd still be the same basic deal -- it'd just move the timeline around a little. Again, I'm sorry I didn't ask about it before -- it wasn't something I'd anticipated, but it seems one or two members of my team won't be satisfied without it :-\.

Thanks.

-- adaMada

adaMada,

It seems that in the chaos, that your PM got forgot about (perhaps because a new page was started after its posting). We have also recieved messages from Togas asking whether you have been active. I now see that you have been waiting for us... Therefore (wording changed to reflect Roleplay having discovered writing):

The Glory of War accepts this deal. The points are:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold, all now.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing, now.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.

This deal is accepted by the GoW. When Roleplay accepts it, it will be final.

About the 15 turn non-trading:
I assume this starts at 1950bc, since that is the curent turn. I calculate that 15 turns from that is 1500bc, since the switch from 40 year turns to 25 year turns happens at 1750bc. If I am wrong, please contact me. Thank you.

Also, question: what tech is Roleplay researching now? This is so the Glory of War can chose a different tech and then we can trade.

Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul the Glory of War

[DAVOUT]

ada,

I think Togas suggestion is safer : do not excuse, do not tell this is a change, your are just asking the agreement to be precisely stated. It is true that Writing was intended to be given after the removal, and you give a reasonnable definition of what the removal is.

[Togas]

DO NOT make excuses. Simply spell out the deal in simple language and believe that this was the deal all along ... wasn't it? You are not changing the timeline or adding details, you are merely giving a logical definition to "removal" so that both sides can follow it.

Don't play it off as forced. Did you think that the deal was that they didn't have to remove their warriors and suddenly we're changing it?? I don't understand why you would feel that we're changing anything. We are merely defining it so that there is no misunderstanding and so that they do not abuse our lack of definitions after the deal is done.

--Togas

[adaMada]

Sorry -- I've been out of the house and busy all day.

Would this message be better? It has less window dressing and no explanation -- it basically just asks for the change in the deal. Very straightfoward -- it's basically the new deal with nothing on top. Again, I don't love the message -- too short, if nothing else -- so if anyone has anything (perferably meaningless but friendly) that I could add, please pass it along.

Panzer,
We are generally happy with the proposal you sent us, however, we'd ask for one or two minor clarifications. Specifically, we'd like:

-GoW Gives: Horseback riding now. GoW begins warrior removal.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing for 60g after the removal of the GoW warriors
-Removal of warriors: Moving them north of our northernmost city, Saragossa.

Thanks.

-- adaMada

Togas and DAVOUT,
I've gotta run again right now (busy day :-\), but I'll answer your questions tomorrow.

-- adaMada

[Togas]

This is taking far too long

We have received the save again this morning. The deal should have been wrapped up Saturday. They now have a legitimate reason to accuse us of stalling. We already had to decline their offer once and I have yet to open the save to see if we're going to have to decline it again.

I am sending the following message to Panzer NOW:

I am sorry that we have not gotten back to you sooner, but there was far too much discussion on the language of this deal, and adaMada has been too busy with school so I have decided to prepare this letter to you because we need to close this deal.

We agree to the following:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold in exchange for writing.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing, after removal of warriors.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team.
- Both Basher & Basher Jr. must be removed.
- Removal consists of moving to a point north of Saragossa. Saragossa is located on the southern edge of the jungle.

Also, question: what tech is Roleplay researching now? This is so the Glory of War can chose a different tech and then we can trade.

We will be happy to discuss future tech research and trade after all GoW warriors have been removed.

--Togas

[Togas]

Godking sent me an email with a copy of the following text he received from DeepO. GK indicates that he is having trouble connecting to Poly. Hopefully his trouble will be shortly resolved.

GodKing,

I'm sorry to be late in answering you, it both was a busy weekend, and we needed to discuss this.

First of all, we would be happy to have some kind of limited non-disclosure agreement on writing. But there are a few problems with it, in that we fear that there won't be enough reason for you to do it. You will discover writing before us, it seems, as we will have some 2-3 turns left to research when you complete it. The (in)stability with Vox has left us to work on our defensive capabilities first before we could search for nobler goals like the concept of writing. Further, if there is one thing the tense peace between Vox and GS has learned us, is that their research capabilities are rather limited, most likely we won't be able to trade writing away the moment we discover it for the simple reason there won't be anything to trade for....

So if you would be willing to delay trading writing away, it is easy for us to agree to do the same as we can't speed up the release of writing into the world; it would be completely at your pace.

As to the contact of Vox: yes they have one contact with a team outside us. I'm not sure if you were assuming this already, but the team of Lux Invicta are in close proximity to them. We can't reach Lux for the moment, so we effectively have to deal with a middleman when it comes to trading our knowledge around. We're hoping this situation gets resolved quickly. It would please us to know whether you have direct, in-game contact with Lux.

One of the ways to do get out of our isolation is to build boats soon, or be reached by boats soon. As a result, Map making is high on our research list, but there are other choices too (and we're discussing what's next). Do you intend to research MM soon, building a few boats to explore the nearby coasts? Maybe we can trade this technology in the near future, if either of us will go for it first.

Kind regards,
DeepO of Gathering Storm

[Togas]

Godking -- Inform Storm that we are trading with a team other than Lux Invicta for now and that we have signed a "no-trade" clause that should prohibit them from passing on Writing to Lux for at least 15 turns. Hopefully this will help them should they seek a trade with Vox in the near future.

We are not researching Mapmaking presently, as it seems that many other teams (Storm included) are working on this tech and we would prefer to have something to exchange with Storm when their boats reach our shore.

Upon contact with us we would be happy to sign a non-agression pact and perhaps sell them contact with many of the other nations we have contact with.

--Togas

[Togas]

Everyone: what we are researching should be kept secret. We will later determine when and if we want to reveal it. I would prefer that we remain vague and delay answering such questions for as long as possible.

I do not want to tip off anyone that we're working towards the Great Library until after we have writing and they get the message "Spain is Building The Great Library" when they open their save.

--Togas

[Hot Mustard]

Originally posted by Togas
Everyone: what we are researching should be kept secret. We will later determine when and if we want to reveal it. I would prefer that we remain vague and delay answering such questions for as long as possible.

I do not want to tip off anyone that we're working towards the Great Library until after we have writing and they get the message "Spain is Building The Great Library" when they open their save.

--Togas

Assuming we're using Madrid to built the Great Library, we should work on a different wonder, like the Pyramids, to throw people off. Of course people will realize that we are banking the shields for something else, but then they have a guessing game as to what we're after.

[jdjdjd]

Here is a PM I sent BFM - with regards to several matters ordered here and in the Analysis thread by Togas. Also, asking for an update of the ND situation.

Hello Mi Amigo,

I just wanted to let you know that, we are still trying to finalize the deal with GoW that Togas told you about several days ago. Hopefully, I'll have news for you either way soon. Will you still be interested in Writing even if we make the trade with GoW? Perhaps you can think of what you might trade for it. Do you have any idea what you would want in exchange for contact with the People of One Voice, Vox Controli - another matter perhaps you can think about?

We have not seen any ND settler groups - have you? are they settling North and East towards you and GoW? Any indication from your scouts?

I hope things settle down between you & ND, but please keep me posted. I doubt a war at this stage could help either of you.

I wish you peace,

jdjdjd, Friend and Ambassador to Lux Invicta

[History Guy]

Ah, I have an update to make, honor thane lords.

I have an unbreakable engagement on Wednesday evening, and thus I cannot be present at the settlement talks with Sultan Borc, which displeases me greatly. However, rather than fish for another evening to do this, I suggest Milord Togas, as he is planning, attend, and finish this business in his own way, as is the right way, as I am sure my own work would be petty, as all of ours are, in comparison to his.

I apologize again. I will inform Senor Picahulu.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

[adaMada]

Message from Panzer:
Just recieved. Will comment more shortly.

-- adaMada

Also sent to Togas.

adaMada,

I am sorry, but the Glory of War cannot accept this revised agreement. The original agreement called for writing to be exchanged "upon aquisition". Since Roleplay has now aquired writing, "upon aquisition" means immediatly. The Glory of War is upset at the arbitrary changing of the deal by Roleplay. If we go back to the original agreement, where the warriors do not have to be removed BEFORE the tech deal goes through, the Glory of War would be happy to trade with Roleplay.

To recap the aforementioned agreement:
-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold in exchange for writing, all immediatly.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing, immediatly.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team.
-Both Basher & Basher Jr. will be removed.

I think that Roleplay might have not quite understood the term "removal" of warriors. To clarify, this means the warriors will go back home to the Glory of War lands, north of where Neo Demogyptica is located. I hope this has not been the reason this agreement has been held up.

Again, if Roleplay agees to this, there will be no hard feelings. However, if Roleplay does not agree, the Glory of War will be extremely upset. We have no guarantee that you will not change the contract again as you just did. Roleplay, seemingly out of blue, reworded an agreed upon treaty to include a city of Sargossa that was never mentioned before. We will be extremely wary of trading with Roleplay in the future, since they are liable to reword the agreement and thus reneg on the agreement. If Roleplay does not accept this deal, and thus betrays us, the Glory of War would have no alternative but to warn the other teams of their behaviour to us.

On a somewhat unrelated note:
There are two groups of jungle. How is the Glory of War supposed to know exactly where Saragossa is. There are two jungles, and therefore two southern edges of the jungle. We have discovered a couple Roleplay cities, but have not discovered the names. Even if the Glory of War would agree to go along with your revised agreement, we would not know where exactly Roleplay wanted us to go.

Even so, there is no way the Glory of War would accept the revised agreement, this last paragraph was just for future reference.

Thank you,

Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

[Togas]

I think that Roleplay might have not quite understood the term "removal" of warriors. To clarify, this means the warriors will go back home to the Glory of War lands, north of where Neo Demogyptica is located. I hope this has not been the reason this agreement has been held up.

This is THE reason why the agreement was held up.
Ignore all of their other bullsh*t, this is their typical blow-hard response. No apologies. I will reply with a more specific definition for "removal" that includes their language and our own.

I will post it here shortly.

--Togas

[ruby_maser]

... and here I thought our relations were on the mend somewhat

I would be happy to let the deal go through while they are in the process of returning home.

[Togas]

I have sent the following reply to Panzer:

Panzer,

There is no prior "agreement" which is why we are attempting to negotiate this one with you. Our concern is primarily for the removal of your warriors. That has been and will remain a vital part of the agreement.

A definition must be created to define removal.

Therefore, I propose the following:

-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, and returns all military units near Spanish territory home. For the purpose of this agreement, this process will be called "removal". GoW will give 60 gold in trade for writing after removal.

-Roleplay Gives: Writing after removal of all GoW warriors in exchange for 60 gold.

-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team.

-Basher & Basher Jr., and any other GoW warriors in RolePlay territory will be removed and return home.

A warrior considered "removed" once he moves north of Saragossa. Basher will be "removed" if he moves North four times. Upon that turn he will be just north of a river, and have a game tile to his SE. That tile, and any tiles further north of it, is north of Saragossa and will sufficiently demonstrate that the warrior is "removed" from Spanish territory.

Should any GoW miltary unit move to any tile south (SE & SW included) of that tile, it will demonstrate that GoW does not intend to remove and return home, and will violate this agreement. Should Basher (while still south of Saragossa) move in any direction other than north, that will demonstrate that GoW does not intend to comply with this agreement, and this agreement will be violated.

Do you agree to these terms and definitions?

--Togas