Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

[jdjdjd]

Here is response from BFM - they wanr Writing from us.
Obviously, if GoW deal falls through, we may only get HBR for Writing from Lux. Perhaps the GOW trade could be - they move North, and when done, we could trade HBR + 60 for Writing then - they may hesitate to give HBR and get nothing back. But, I don't care if this deal falls through - they are being a-holes about it. BFM on the otherhand, has been nothing but pleasant.

BFM's PM

Hello jdjdjd!

We have not seen any ND settlers lately, but we do see an awful lot of ND cities! As for the Military: fortunately, we are well defended (also with some offensive units, hehe) if they attack (we will not attack ourselves, since we agree with you: a war wouldn't benefit us).

To be honest with you - I don't know where we should get Writing from if we cannot get it from you. The situation with ND is very tense, and I'm not very happy trading it from GoW. Do you have a proposal?

As far as Contacts are concerned - we are still trying to make contact with other civs! We are still scouting out some lands.

Keep me posted,

BFM of Lux

[Togas]

We agreed to a 20 turn Non-Agression Pact with Neu Dem today during our settlement talks. So 20 turns from 1830BC the agreement will end.

Neu Dem wants to build a city by the silk, and they also want the gems site. They were extremely cordial but there are small questions about a few of their requests and comments that lead me to believe that they are just as slippery as our many other neighbors.

jdjdjd -- Propose to sell Writing to Lux Invicta for 100g. Let them know that we will be happy to agree to a partial gpt turn if that would help them. Also ask them if they would trade Writing to us for their contact with Vox. Let them know that we know they have contact with Vox.

Ask them how many cities Neu Dem can build in the north, and how many cities they have room for. Let them know that we're trying to figure out how crowded it is up there because Neu Dem claims that they have no room up there.

Also ask if they have settled a "twin city" next to one of Neu Dem's cities. If so, ask them for their side of the story.

History Guy -- Thank Neu Dem for coming to our negotiation, etc, etc. Let them know that we have carefully considered their proposal but we are ultimately unhappy with it. Explain to them that Spain cannot see El Valle De Los Torros, the heartland of Spain, split in half, it would be a horrible blow to our pride and our heritage to surrender it.

We also think it is wise that we use the jungle as a natural barrier between us so that both teams are not tempted to betray the other. Their proposal seems to place Arabian cities in the midst of our cities. This could cause too much tension or temptation for us both.

Their proposal would give them only 2 reasonable city sites in the process. We propose, instead, that they settle the lush, wide valley to their east that will give them far more city sites and will send them an image highlighting the many excellent city sites that we are prepared to give up so that they will have a place to grow. Please send them the most recent image I had posted in the ND border thread.

--Togas

[adaMada]

Message from Panzer:
-- adaMada

adaMada,

I can see now how Roleplay is conducting their diplomacy. Roleplay is conducting as Hitler did with Britain before World War II. Roleplay is assured we won't attack them, because of both our nonagression pact and the distance from the Glory of War homeland. Roleplay is playing on this fact, and is trying to squeeze more out of the Glory of War in diplomacy. We have no desire to be your Chamberlain by feeding into your leadership's egomania and their continually altering demands. Roleplay told the Glory of War they would trade writing to us for a certain deal, and we accepted. Then you informed us that you decided to change the deal and we began working to meet that one. Then you changed it again.

We have no idea if this philosophy is that of your team or simply your leadership but it is difficult to maintain any form of mutually beneficial relationship with a team that regards the treaties it agrees to as little more than frivilous scratchpads of no value.

We have honored every agreement with your team since the beginning even when other civs gave us bonus techs and the deals were no longer equal trades. We find it very sad that your team still will not honor this agreement.

The Glory of War does not accept your revised agreement. We will accept the agreement sent in my last PM, but now with less money. The Glory of War is not paying Roleplay to sit idle and start revising a contract. Therefore, the amount the Glory of War will pay Roleplay is reduced to 20 gold. If they still have not agreed to do the deal within 2 more turns (when the GoW gets the 1790bc save), this price will be reduced to zero.

If we define 'removal' as the warriors starting to move north, then the deal will be acceptable. Of course, the Glory of War will continue to move the warrior north. If you recall, the deal the Glory of War proposes is very beneficial to the Roleplay team. You get 20 gold, horseback riding, and the removal (see aforementioned definition) of the basher and basher jr. For this, you only have to give up writing. If you do not want to trade with the Glory of War, simply say so rather than propose proposterous deals that the Glory of War already rejected.

This is the prior agreement:

Sent by adaMada, official diplomat to GoW

If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3. To refresh everyone's memory, it was:
GoW Gives: Horseback riding and warrior removal now and 60 gold upon reception of writing.
Roleplay Gives: Writing upon acquisition
* Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.

And from my reply to this:

This deal is accepted by the GoW

I quote from your last PM:

Sent by Togas, leader of Roleplay

There is no prior "agreement" which is why we are attempting to negotiate this one with you

I believe that if you said, "If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3", and the Glory of War accepted it, then it is a "prior agreement". It is the Glory of War's belief that we had a deal. Your claim that we did not have a prior agreement is a disgrace.

The offer we have outlined in this message is final. The Roleplay team has been playing this game in a dishonorable fashion and the Glory of War plans on advertising this fact to all other teams unless the deal is accepted immediately.

Thank you,

Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War;

Along with the rest of the Glory of War team.

EDIT:
The major communication that Panzer doesn't mention in his above message was one AFTER the one he quotes from me, where he asks that we finalize the dea and sign off on it. (It's posted someplace here if needed). If he hadn't sent that and had rather just acknowledged my message, the deal would have simply gone through. Having said that, I'd rather not use that specific communication to challange him, since it is (in my opinion) common curtesy to check the deal one last time with both teams, and we'd be wondering onto slightly unstable grounds to try to use that against them. I'm mainly just pointing it out so people on our team can recall how the issue resurfaced. Will post more tomorrow and answer any questions then/send a reply if we've decided what it is -- it's midnight over here, and I've gotta be back up at six, or else I'd hang around and try to work out more of this now :-\. Sorry. -- adaMada

EDIT EDIT: One last note. The original deal they offered stated that we'd give them writing "In four turns" with a footnote of "Four turns is when writing is aquired." (I can dig up the exact wording, or find it in the other thread.) To try to simplify things, I just said "when writing is aquired" in the final deal -- time had passed anyway, and it was basically the same deal. Looking back, that was probably a mistake :-\, though I doubt it'dve made any difference anyway -- they'dve just held us to the footnote if I'd left it worded that way. Sorry anyway -- it seems that every time I say anything it manages to come back and bite us in the a*s. :-\

[Arnelos]

The Roleplay team has been playing this game in a dishonorable fashion and the Glory of War plans on advertising this fact to all other teams unless the deal is accepted immediately.

If the deal falls through, let them.

and the comparison to Hitler?

God, I hope they negotiate with all the teams the same way they're negotiating with us. If so, it will be PAINFULLY simple to line everyone up against them.

Gloria Belli Delenda Est.

[ruby_maser]

I don't blame them for being p*ssed

[Thrumble]

Originally posted by ruby_maser
I don't blame them for being p*ssed

Yeah, I'm somewhat suprised they haven't declared war on us yet.

[Togas]

I blame them for being p*ssed. They are trying to control the way we define "removed" by saying that removal = when they START moving their units forward. Removal = when they are actually removed.

I sent them a definition of when we would consider them removed. They refuse to accept our definition.

Tough luck. They're out HBR and they won't get Writing. Their gripes and accusations and intimidation aren't going to sway me.

--Togas

[Togas]

Letter sent to Panzer32:

Panzer32,

adaMada has posted your response to our forum. I'm not going to waste my time commending on your continuing insults and threats and make this very clear, because your team doesn't seem to care to understand what MY position is, and your team continue to believe that by misquoting my ambassador and playing word games you can force me to change MY position on this deal.

I, as leader of Spain, am not giving you ANYTHING until your warriors are OUT OF SPAIN, period. That was always our position, when we talk about "removal" we clearly mean "removed from Spain." We do not mean, "moving north 1 tile" as you incorrectly seem to believe. I am not going to take "your word" that you will remove them after the deal is done. I have zero trust that you will follow through. I want to see them OUT before I give you anything.

If you want writing, you will leave Spain by moving north to the tile I clearly specified. It's simple and it's clear. You "claim" that you are removing your warrior so there should be no issue with this arrangement. Yet you are making an issue because you want writing NOW.

I'm sorry, but I'm not that trusting, especially not with the way you continue to insult myself, my ambassador, and my team. You're not going to get it now.

If you remove your warrior and pay us the amount you promised, you will get Writing. If not, you won't. It's that simple. I can't make it anymore simple than that.

If you choose to "go public" with this whole stupid affair know that I will also "go public" and devulge all of your bitter quotes and threats and lies and broken promises. Should you doctor our PMs to you, we will, in return, doctor your PMs to us. Should you outright lie about our role in this affair, we will lie in return. There is nothing that you can threaten us with that we cannot do in return to you. Mutually assured destruction. If you want it, we'll play that game. I'm more than willing. You know that I have people on my team who are VERY willing to do so.

But if you want writing, quit sending threatening and insulting letters to my ambassador, move your warrior north a few more tiles, then trade us 60g for writing like you agreed.

That is, if you really want writing. I'm starting to doubt that you do.

--Togas, Ruler of Spain.

[jdjdjd]

today - on MSN - Lux offered Vox contact for Writing. Writing would gave to be given first, so they could trade contact.

I assume this is acceptable? i think its fair.

[Thud]

As I said on the other thread, perfectly acceptable. I would suggest we jump on this ASAP.

[Togas]

jdjdjd -- Excellent offer. We will accept soon, but I need you to delay things a bit with them so we can wrap up the GoW writing deal. I don't want Lux getting writing very soon and handing it over to GoW. I want GoW to be forced to have to buy it from us.

So contact Lux tomorrow. Tell them that we're interested in the offer but would like it if they would give us gold + contact for writing. See if they'll agree. If so, start negotiating an amount ... whatever you think you can get, then go down. Our bottom line is writing for contact, so anything you can get in addition is a bonus.

Then begin working out the terms and the details and the fine print, etc. All of this negotiation should buy us enough time to settle with GoW and then immediately trade Writing for contact with Lux.

--Togas

[Crousto]

I agree with Togas last post, except that Writing for only contact with Vox would be a complete waste for us. We won't gain anything really interesting from a contact with Vox (I doubt they are more advanced than us), and on the other hand Writing is the most valuable tech around currently.

[DAVOUT]

removed

[Togas]

Please move all discussion to the Diplomacy: Analysis & Discussion thread.

[Togas]

The following PM was sent to Panzer32

I am submitting this brief message to you. I will give adaMada further instructions as well, and I anticipate he will contact you shortly.

We have received your offer of Contact with Vox.
We have responded with a bid of 25 gold and accepted.

If this is unacceptable, please contact adaMada to negotiate.

We have also received an offer from Lux Invicta for sale of contact with Vox. We are presently negotiating with them as well.

Please contact adaMada with any further questions.

--Togas

adaMada -- immediately contact GoW and begin negotiations with them. You are also to work with jdjdjd and send him a copy of everything you receive. Our MAX PRICE for contact with Vox is Writing, however, you are to try to get it for less. Mysticism is an option as mysticism is less valuable than Writing. I would prefer to pay with cash, though. You may disclose to them the lowest bid of Lux to see if they will go lower, UNLESS Lux specifically states in their PMs that the amount is secret. In that case, you should hint that Lux is offering to sell it to us for less.

My initial offer to GoW for Contact with Vox was 25g.

jdjdjd -- You are to work with adaMada, cc him all Lux offers. They are bidding AGAINST GoW with us for Contact with Vox. Let them know that we have also received an offer from GoW and see if that will convince them to sell it to us for less. You have permission to disclose to them the lowest bid by GoW to see if they will go lower.

--Togas