Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Tiberius]

and that GS is properly armed to defend its homeland against potential invasions.

Err, well, how do we do that?
We are trying to tell them that they don't have saltpeter, right?

How about: "We are ready to ensure that GS keeps at least on par with Bob tech-wise and that GS will be able to defend its homeland against potential invasions."


Hmm, I'm not very happy with my version either. Better ideas?

[vondrack]

What about "properly equipped"?

I do not want to plainly say we will trade them saltpeter, but I want to make it obvious we will - by mentioning "even strategic resources" and later talking about their ability to properly defend their homeland. Also, worded this way, it is more of a general promise - Stormia is relatively small and may lack even more than just saltpeter. This way, we say we will help them out with whatever they may need to remain competitive (or, at least, that's what I am trying to say). This "whatever" may even mean gold... and I would be contented to imply that. Once the war is over, we will need them to balance out the Bobian powers we are helping to create now.

I am assuming that GS already knows they have no saltpeter - various things indicate that.

[Tiberius]

to ensure that GS's armed forces are properly equipped to defend ... ? Sounds good.

[vondrack]

OK, that's probably perfect.

[vondrack]

Few more comments like those of OPD and Sir Ralph in the main forum and I am going to scrap my draft and suggest sending them a very brief note:

Guys, stuff it up your a$$. We want you gone from this game. Strategy or no strategy, potential or no potential.

Jesus, I am feeling sick of them. Darekill spends half an hour writing a rather cool poem for everybody to read, posting in the almost dead public forum, and those idiots rush to tell him how naughty he was doing that...

EDIT: can a native English speaker explain to me what Sir Ralph might have meant by that "crap" of his in the public forum today? Is there a chance he was just expressing his surprise about the news of their defeat? Or was he saying "what you say is crap, I agree with OPD"?

[Tiberius]

I think what SR meant is: that poem is crap.

I'd say just ignore them. Some people just can't lose with dignity.

[ZargonX]

Oh, I took it to mean "crap" in regards to the loss. I could be wrong, though. It can be hard to interpret one-word replies, even if you are a native speaker As for your draft, Vondrack, it looks very good. I also believe GS know they have no saltpeter, as I'm going to guess some boasting GoWer probably taunted them with the fact at some point. We don't need to say it explicitly, but they will know what we mean.

And, yes, if they can't learn to have fun with the game, maybe we should just let them fall into obscurity...

[lmtoops]

I have no idea what he meant by "crap".

The poem was a bit harsh, but that may have been the language barrier. In any case, GS should have taken it and not complained. They have dished out enough taunts, that they deserve to take a few.

It will be interesting to see how they respond (in game). They could temporarily back off, make peace, or go all out war. At this point, I cannot determine which direction they will take.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by lmtoops
They have dished out enough taunts, that they deserve to take a few.

That's a good point. After taunting your opponent, you should be ready to accept some mocking in return, if you fail.

Originally posted by lmtoops
It will be interesting to see how they respond (in game). They could temporarily back off, make peace, or go all out war. At this point, I cannot determine which direction they will take.

I am more and more convinced they will withdraw/quit from the war. After losing Army Group South and with a force too weak to actually make any difference in the East (I have just received a response from Aggie - what we can see on that coastal mountain is most probably part of the stack that was threatening Yellowknife), they have little means to keep the war efforts up.

After we offer friendly relations and support in case they withdraw, they would have to be nuts to not quit. They must be able to see their efforts are utterly futile. I'd bet they will try to keep their face by somehow saving RPers from extinction, probably by granting them exile in the Northern Stormia (since they will feel we would side with them if GoW/ND followed overseas - and I believe we should, if that was to happen).

[Nimitz]

Ok, I just got back from my thanks giving vaction and found this message in my PMs thought you would like to see it.

Nimitz,

Theseus and I had a chat with Vondrack the other day. We were discussing GS's intended contract with GoW to hit ND, and recieved assurance that as long as we get GoW to agree to the deal, Lego will not intervene against GoW and/or GS in their war against ND.

As Lego FAM, we thought we'd like to check with you to confirm that this is Lego's official position, as you see it, and if so, to enquire whether we might be able to move to a formal agreement on this matter.

Regards,

CH

[vondrack]

We would like you to catch up by reading about the latest developments.

That PM is no longer relevant. GoW rejected GS' proposal, so anything we told them (a log of the chat Cort Haus mentioned is posted is this thread) no longer matters - as it was based upon the theoretical assumption GoW would take their offer.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by vondrack
EDIT: can a native English speaker explain to me what Sir Ralph might have meant by that "crap" of his in the public forum today? Is there a chance he was just expressing his surprise about the news of their defeat? Or was he saying "what you say is crap, I agree with OPD"?

I think it was just a general curse, either at the in-game situation or possibly at the fact that yet another thread is flaming up. It's not that much harder to write "this is crap" which would be clearly referring to the poem/previous posts.

[vondrack]

Just to keep you informed, this is the message I included with the 370AD save sent to GS:

This is an official communication from the Senate of Legoland:

Honourable Nation of Gathering Storm,

We, the Senate of Legoland, thank you for the honest message and open
analysis of your current situation and options. We hope this response
of ours will make it easier for you to understand where we stand, what
our plans/intensions are, and most importantly, how all that affects
our current and future relations.

First: we, to a large extent, agree with your analysis regarding the
potentials of Lego, GS, GoW, and ND. In case GoW and ND split Bob
between themselves in a fair way, their potentials will almost match
the potential of Lego, with GS being severely shafted. We also agree
that a more-than-2-civ Bob would suit even our plans better, alas...
we do not see a way to create a stable world incorporating such a
setup.

Assuming RP either dies or survives only in a small exile in the
Northern Stormia and GS gains a decent share of the Bobian territory
(~100 tiles), the world might seem slightly better balanced at the
first glance: Lego ~400 tiles, GoW, ND, and GS ~300 tiles each. The
problem, though (from our point of view) would be that GS would make
our situation easier (by weakening the potential of GoW & ND), while
not improving its own enough to be able to win peacefully. If not
giving up the hopes to win the game, GS would be forced to try
conquering more land in order to match or outmatch us. Inevitably, we
would have to respond by defending the attacked nations, getting
involved.

Which, however, is exactly what's happening now.

When the war broke out and your armies joined, rather unexpectedly,
the troops of RP, we faced quite a difficult decision. Despite GoW and
ND entering their GA, we did not believe they were strong enough to
withstand the might of yours & RP combined in the long run, especially
considering your stunning triumph over the strong army of Voxian
immortals (later events have pretty much confirmed our concerns). We
had to decide whether we preferred Bob split between GoW & ND only or
(possibly multinational) Bob with your strong presence - which we, as
explained earlier in this message, regarded as a permanent threat to
our long term plans (we do not wish to expand beyond Legos).

Considering the circumstances addressed earlier, we decided the lesser
evil for us was Bob split between GoW & ND - and allied with them,
strictly defining the extent of our involvement and the goal to
achieve.

While it was not possible to ally with GoW & ND and protect them from
being overwhelmed by your armies without de facto standing
against RP, too, we did make it clear we would not get involved in
operations against RP. There was/is a treaty binding us to join no
wars against RP... and even though it probably sounds a bit
ridiculous, we still honour it in the way we deem appropriate. The
destruction or crippling of RP was/is not our business, even if we
have no intentions to oppose it. Furthermore, it would be futile to
pretend our own selfish interests are better served with anything but
a prolonged conflict on Bob.

It certainly is no news for you that GoW and ND want no presence of
yours on Bob. Legoland's role in this triple alliance is, said in a
bit simplified way, to ensure you do not win (on Bob), rather than to
ensure you lose there - though, in the end, it probably means the
same.

However, we would like to make it crystal clear that our role in the
alliance with GoW and ND ends with your last soldier leaving the
shores of Bob (or with a peace treaty signed between you, GoW, and
ND). As leaked in the chat some time ago, we even made it abundantly
clear to our current allies we would not support any invasion of
Stormia. Not only we would not support/join it, but we would oppose
it, just like we currently oppose your presence on Bob.

Once the war is over, we are ready to fully revive the cooperation and
trading between our two nations, including techs, luxuries, and
possibly even strategic resources. As correctly implied by your
message, a feeble GS would serve the victorious Bobians most,
indirectly hurting our own interests. We are ready to ensure GS keeps
at least on par with Bob tech-wise and that GS armed forces are
properly equipped to defend their homeland against potential
invasions. Once the war on Bob is over (or GS no longer involved in
it), there will be nothing preventing a close cooperation between our
two nations, unless, of course, GS decides to not cooperate with a
nation that hurt its interests in The Great Bobian War. Even if this
paragraph is not written in bold, it is the key part of our message to
you.

We fully acknowledge that our approach to the current situation, with
respect to you, is far from "fair". You've got every right to feel
bitter about us standing in your way. But then, in this sense, trying
to win the game is not "fair" to anyone... only one team can win and
Lego wants to win, in its own "builder" way, as much as you or anyone
else does.

We hope you understand - and we hope that despite standing against
each other now, we will not remain that way forever.

The Senate of Legoland

[vondrack]

Hmmmm... good thing I have not played the turn yet. This from Cort Haus:

Vondrack,

You have the turn, so I want to suggest this now, while there's time.

GS intends to withdraw from Bob, but as we don't know whether we have any saltpeter on Stormia or within the area we still hold on Bob, we are clinging on until we have gunpowder (which we are researching).

If we knew for sure that we were holding none on Bob, we could start leaving immediately and attempt to make peace with ND & GoW. If we are holding some on Bob, but we have none on Stormia then it is essential that we do not abandon it yet - even a couple of turns of SP could be worth us fighting for.

Lego have already succeeded in weakening GS to the point of us no longer being in contention. Technically, we understand that your position in the alliance against us remains until every GS unit is off Bob, but the die is cast and Lego must recognise, for their own good, that GS is already broken as a rival.

So can you give us Gunpowder now to resolve the issue? It's a cheap tech now, but still takes turns. Lego has won its war, GS has blown the GoW/ND GA for you and delayed the construction of the Bobian uber-power. Now we need a break - in the interests of both of our civs. So how about it?

Regards,

CH
GS

I do not think we should send them GP for free now, but it may be worth considering whether to tell them they do not have any saltpeter on Stormia and that they do not hold any saltpeter on Bob (read: have any in the cultural borders) at the moment.

I am going to sit on the save until hearing back from at least some of you.

EDIT: we may also consider assuring GS of trading our excess saltpeter (for their second lux?), if they agree to reasonable conditions (no Bob invasion for a set period of time?)

[redstar1]

I don't see any reason not to tell them that they do not hold any salt-peter. We have made it clear that our quarrell ends the moment their last unit leaves Bob and on that basis i'd be more than happy to start discussions regarding trade. If we had to trade our excess GP to anyone, I'd rather it were GS, the team we are least likely to have to fight in the near future.