Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[lmtoops]

Nimitz is still recovering from his victory party.

[vondrack]

[ZargonX]

I haven't seen him online for a few days. That usually means something RL popped up, or connection problems. And don't worry Vondrack, I'm sure we won't be getting the save again before Christmas anyway

[Nimitz]

Ok RL did pop up but when I checked day before yesterday there had been no reply from GS. I'm going to check my PMs now and if there is no reply I'm off to PM them again.

[vondrack]

OK, we have finally had the "fix-up" chat with GS... not sure how much I was able to "fix up", but I did re-state our position and tried to be as honest as possible w/o spilling too many beans (I guess I knew why i did not want to talk to them... it's too damn difficult to not tell them what they are not supposed to know, while not lying or twisting truth)

Session Start: Sun Nov 23 21:10:34 2003
Session Ident: #LegoGSmeeting
* Now talking in #LegoGSmeeting
* Retrieving #LegoGSmeeting info...
* vondrack sets mode: +s
* Cort has joined #LegoGSmeeting
Cort: hi
vondrack: hello!
vondrack: happy to meet you
vondrack: first time, is it not?
Cort: yes
* Kloreep has joined #LegoGSmeeting
Kloreep: Hi
Cort: Hi
Cort: assume usual confidentiality between teams?
vondrack: sure
vondrack: first, let me talk about the chat you had with Sharpe and Nimitz, please
Cort: fine
vondrack: I feel quite uneasy and it's pretty difficult for me to get everything right
vondrack: so bear with me, please
Cort: ok
vondrack: I will need a couple of lines to explain
vondrack: that chat caused QUITE some debate in our team
vondrack: the main problem about it was that Sharpe & Nimitz were acting without telling anyone
vondrack: and, basically, with no authorization
vondrack: what they told you, what they discussed... it was their personal opinion(s) and stances
Cort: that's ok, we didn't assume it to be the Voice of Lego - just themselves
vondrack: that's cool
vondrack: because that's what it was
vondrack: what makes me feel quite uneasy about the chat
vondrack: was that at that time
vondrack: I was the FAM
vondrack: now I am not
vondrack: Nimitz is
vondrack: but he is not online
Cort: We thought you were the Pres
vondrack: not really
vondrack: we do not have anyone like that anymore
* Theseus has joined #LegoGSmeeting
vondrack: the post was abolished
vondrack: hello, Theseus!
Theseus: Hi!
vondrack: glad to see you
Cort: hey, T!
vondrack: in a nutshell
vondrack: I was telling Cort Haus
vondrack: that the chat you had with Sharpe & Nimitz
vondrack: caused quite a debate in Lego
Theseus: How so?
vondrack: primarily because they expressed
vondrack: their own opinions and stances a bit as if they were of Lego as a whole
vondrack: which they were not, or not completely
vondrack: they discussed things that were not discussed in our forum before
vondrack: and even things that were discussed and not really approved
vondrack: I feel very sorry for what happened
Cort: and I said that we guessed they might only been expressing their own opinions
vondrack: accept my deepest apologies
vondrack: now the tricky thing is
Theseus: I thought they were pretty clear that they were not speaking for Lego as a whole.
vondrack: ok, it was not as clear from the chatlog they posted in our forum
vondrack: ATM - I am "nobody"
vondrack: not holding any official position in Lego
vondrack: just being the primary player
Theseus: Who now leads?
vondrack: well, uhm...
vondrack: me
vondrack: but sort of informally
Theseus: Me too.
Theseus: And what is the tricky thing?
vondrack: the tricky thing is
vondrack: that Nimitz, who was present during that chat
vondrack: is now our FAM
vondrack: but he is not online and I cannot get him to attend to this chat
Theseus: Yeah, we've been trying to get into a chat with Nimitz.
vondrack: so you just have my word that what I tell you is the official stance of Legoland
Theseus: OK
vondrack: basically, there is very little I need to tell you
vondrack: but it is important
vondrack: the message we sent you (that "ultimatum")
vondrack: expressed our stance very precisely
vondrack: we would not be overly happy having to fight you
vondrack: but there are things forcing us to if you attack GoW
vondrack: there would be
vondrack: I mean
Theseus: We have not further entered GoW territory.
vondrack: understood
vondrack: so - if I may sum up what I needed to tell you
Theseus: In fact, we are pretty far along in negotiating a contract with them, as I had previously questioned you about.
vondrack: ok...
vondrack: I guess no need to sum anything up
Theseus: No... go ahead.
vondrack: I meant to say
vondrack: that I am glad to know you did not consider the chat "official"
vondrack: because that was a very important thing
Theseus: No problem... but we need to get official.
vondrack: the "official" stance was communicated through that message - that one was voted upon (unanimously, I may add)
Theseus: Give me a sec to lay out the situation, OK?
vondrack: ok
vondrack: go ahead
* vondrack sets mode: +ooo Cort Kloreep Theseus
Theseus: We are negotiating with GoW for the removal of RP from Bob. This will satisfy their contract with ND.
Theseus: In the last turn, RP gifted us 3 out of 4 cities on Bob, leaving them only Pamplona.
Theseus: We are gifting them North Stormia for the time being.
Theseus: Next turn, we will either take Pamplona, or it will be abandoned.
Theseus: Once this is done, we will (hopefully) enter into a contract with GoW for the eradication of ND.
vondrack: has this been endorsed by GoW?
Theseus: We intend to split Bob with GoW, and then return RP to a limited portion of Bob.
Theseus: No, the contract is in draft, and certain key points are being negotiated. Primarily how the land gets split.
vondrack: I see
Theseus: Lego plays a role in this...
vondrack: ?
Theseus: We would like your approval of this plan, and commitment not to interfere.
Theseus: Further, we would like to invite you to participate.
Theseus: If you want.
Theseus: We have also discussed Lego settling a (small) piece of Bob as well.
Theseus: If you want.
vondrack: well, yes, this is where the issue gets complicated for me... or us
vondrack: give me a sec to express myself clearly
vondrack: an approval to the plan you are mentioning
Theseus: We are pursuing the idea of "balance" that your team members has discussed... just a balance of 3 primary teams ratehr than 4.
Theseus: Go ahead, sorry.
vondrack: would be subject to the approval of that plan by GoW in the first place
Cort: .. and if GoW's approvals depends on your approval?
Theseus: OF course.
vondrack: then perhaps we would have to consult with GoW first
vondrack: to be honest, we were briefly informed
vondrack: about the negotiations
vondrack: we know they took place, that is
Theseus: Good.
vondrack: what if GoW does not approve the plan?
Theseus: We have kept our troops in place for an... alternative resolution.
Theseus: We know your position in such case.
vondrack: yes
vondrack: so, if I read the situation correctly, it's GoW we are all waiting for
Theseus: Assuming your team members were not too far off in expressing your desires (i.e., Lego not fighting at the current time), this plan should meet with your approval.
Theseus: Hmmm... we are sort of waiting on GoW, but it's really a bit more complex.
vondrack: true
Theseus: If we can reach an agreement with GoW, will you approve of this plan?
vondrack: honestly, we have not even dicussed that possibility yet in our forum
vondrack: somehow...
vondrack: we believe that the bonds between GoW and ND may be more than just a "contract"
Theseus: The play well together.
Theseus: But I think GoW really do like being mercs.
vondrack: ok, let me state it this way:
vondrack: IF YOU GET GOW TO AGREE TO YOUR PLAN (the emphasis is on this part of the statement), Lego is open to all possible resolutions
vondrack: but until we are officially informed by GoW, we are going to honour our current deals and bonds
Theseus: I understand the capitalized part, but not the second clause.
vondrack: the second part says: there is nothing we would a priori mind about the plan you have drawn out
vondrack: though it was not really discussed yet
Theseus: OK, great... so I'll ask GoW to give you a ring?
vondrack: the capitalized part says we are less than sure you can get GoW to agree to it
Cort: we think we can
Cort: if you are ok with it
Theseus: We are "glass half full" types.
Theseus: vondrack, I'm going to draft my report to Aggie on this chat for your approval.
vondrack: not really necessary
Theseus: Just to make sure, OK?
vondrack: ok
Theseus: "We had a short chat with Lego. They are, of course, maintaining their current commitments, including their support of GoW in the event that we attack your homeland. They are aware of our current contract negotiations, and in the event that we enter into the contract against ND as described, they will not interfere."
Cort: how long would it take for approval to get from 'a priori' to definite?
Cort: (sorry)
vondrack: yes, I think this summary is correct
vondrack: just keep in mind (for yourself) I gave much emphasis on that "in the event"
Theseus: Understoood.
Theseus: OK, then, any techs or luxuries you want to give us?
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: the only luxury we have
vondrack: you already have
Theseus: At least it's not a friggin' C3C map!
vondrack: haven't had time to install my copy of C3C yet
vondrack: too much business last days and weeks
vondrack: (got C3C only few days ago)
Theseus: My first try at an epic game... Japan, no iron on the continent, and India next door!!
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: cool
Cort: India must be better now
Theseus: Same problem with time constraints, though.
Theseus: I think we are done... unless you want to discuss Lego's (and Vox'?) possible participation in the war on ND.
vondrack: that would be premature, I believe
vondrack: let's hear what GoW says first
vondrack: once we are past that
vondrack: we can discuss war on ND
Theseus: OK. I will send the above communication to Aggie.
vondrack: ok
Cort: thanks for the chat
Theseus: Oh... is there anything we should know about your gov't?
vondrack: gov't? what is that?
vondrack:
Theseus: Participation is down?
vondrack: all we still have is the FAM
vondrack: (Nimitz)
vondrack: not really
vondrack: just that we ended up with very few formal positions
vondrack: oh, btw... I think you should know this
Theseus: Us too.
vondrack: Sharpe left Lego after the heated debate following the chat he and Nimitz had with you
Cort: wow!
Theseus: REALLY??!!
vondrack: yes
Cort: Funny, I was looking for him on the members list for the PM to call this
Theseus: I apologize if we in some way caused trouble.
vondrack: no, it was not your fault at all
vondrack: as far as I know, it was him asking your for the chat
Theseus: Being unauthorized?
vondrack: well, I mean - anything that was a consequence of that chat was a consequence of something HE asked for
vondrack: and of the reaction of the rest of the team to that
Theseus: DGs can be... intense.
vondrack: tell me...
Kloreep: Yes, this PTWDG has gotten far too intense at times...
vondrack: agreed
Kloreep: Hi there, popping back in to the chat
vondrack: but I learned more than one lesson here
Kloreep: Here's hoping for a carefree PTWDG II
Cort: and a bug free one
Theseus: BTW, I'd like to compliment you vondrack... you have had one of the cooler heads in the varios DG interactions I've seen.
Theseus: We are done here, yes? Back to GoW we go.
vondrack: ok, I do not see a reason to keep you any longer - I said what I was supposed to, making sure you do not misunderstand the previous chat, and now it is up to you to finish your talks with GoW
vondrack: yes
Theseus: See ya... thanks!!
vondrack: and... thanks, Theseus. I believe we belong to the same kind.
Cort: thanks, bye
vondrack: bye
* Cort has left #LegoGSmeeting
* Theseus has left #LegoGSmeeting
Session Close: Sun Nov 23 22:08:38 2003

[redstar1]

Theseus: We would like your approval of this plan, and commitment not to interfere.

Oh my, this is very interesting. By 'commitment not to interfere' I read 'we don't require Lego's involvement' ....

So assuming an end to current stage of hostilities in 5 turns minimum. Then a negociation/rebuilding phase followed by a lengthy war against ND...

Just how far a lead could we take?

[vondrack]

Yes, that's how I understood Theseus. They would "allow" our involvement in a war on ND - if we were interested in. They would "allow" us taking a (small) part of Bob - if we were interested in. But between the lines, I read: ...but we would rather if you just stayed out of it, not messing in.

Interesting how they consider ND a serious threat, while practically dismissing us as a threat... or at least it seems so. Perhaps it is because we have nowhere to further expand to?

Well, anyway... if you read the Thursday alliance chat log, you will see that GoW is just leading GS, gaining time to organize their defenses on the Eastern Bob. So, all this is just GS hoping/believing in castles in the air...

[redstar1]

I would be inclined to beleive GOW, however, one must keep an open mind

[ZargonX]

Theseus: BTW, I'd like to compliment you vondrack... you have had one of the cooler heads in the varios DG interactions I've seen.

Maybe we should let him into our forum

[lmtoops]

Originally posted by vondrack
Yes, that's how I understood Theseus. They would "allow" our involvement in a war on ND - if we were interested in. They would "allow" us taking a (small) part of Bob - if we were interested in. But between the lines, I read: ...but we would rather if you just stayed out of it, not messing in.

Interesting how they consider ND a serious threat, while practically dismissing us as a threat... or at least it seems so. Perhaps it is because we have nowhere to further expand to?

I'm sure they see us a threat, but securing a good chunk of Bob is the best way of dealing with us. They do not want to deal with us militarily, because the resource drain would be enormous and victory would not be guaranteed.

At the same time, ND is not a big threat, but they are best victim around. GS think they can "sell" ND as a victim. ND are outsiders in several ways (not Apolyton, all are German(?), and probably a few more).

Originally posted by vondrack
Well, anyway... if you read the Thursday alliance chat log, you will see that GoW is just leading GS, gaining time to organize their defenses on the Eastern Bob. So, all this is just GS hoping/believing in castles in the air...

I tend to believe GoW. It makes more sense for them to stick with the ND alliance. They still have the possibility of victory with then ND alliance, but if they back stab ND, forget it...they would be the next GS target and they would have no friends.

Overall, I think we need to stay the course and be prepared for WAR with GS. With that said, priority #1 is to upgrade the defenses, which is in progress.

[vondrack]

A PM from Cort Haus:

Vondrack,

Thankyou for meeting with us the other day. It was good to talk with you.

Have you spoken with GoW yet about this matter? We are still in negotiations with them and obviously we hope to nail down the deal - and should we get to the point of signing with GoW, we were wondering whether we might be able to move to an agreement with yourselves to formalise Lego's assurance that they would not intervene against GoW/GS in the event of a joint GoW/GS attack on ND.

Regards,

Cort Haus
Gathering Storm

I suggest we do not respond at all at this moment. Tonight, there is the alliance chat - I will find out how far GoW is with their refusal (few days ago, Aggie said UnO was working on the wording of their note). After the chat (tomorrow), I'd respond with something courteous, but vague... not really telling them we know GoW is going to tell them to stuff it, but rather that they need to talk to GoW to find out what the situation is like.

[Tiberius]

Maybe they are trying to use our approval to convince GoW to accept the deal. So until GoW actually agrees to something like that (though they won't); no, until we will see a written GS-GoW agreement on this, we won't do anything about it, and we can tell them that.

Besides, why do they need our approval? What do they except? We can very well say "OK, go ahead" and then help ND. So ... keep them in the fog, yes.

[ZargonX]

I would just not respond for now. Hold the alliance chat, and maybe us and GoW can come up with a coordinated story.

[vondrack]

A looooong PM from Cort Haus, Mull it over, guys.

Vondrack,

As you may be aware by now, GoW are not going to take up the GS offer.

National Holiday family commitments in the USA have delayed our turn. There's no way we can proceed on this most critical of turns without a full team discussion. So, Lego and GS are still, thankfully, at peace but if a vote is taken to attack GoW regardless then according to your policy a state of war would, most regrettably, exist between our nations.

This begs the obvious question: What would be the conditions for ending such a war?


Please consider the following frank and open analysis of the geo-political realities of the world :

We compared the size of the continents in the world in terms of tile count as a rough guide to productive power. Here are the findings :

Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia)

Bob : ~ 750 tiles

Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia)

A glance at this shows that GS's potential productive power is only half that of Lego, and only half that of each civ of a 2-civ Bob. Of the four powers in the world, Gathering Storm clearly has the least chance of winning the game. In fact, our only chance was to (a) try to establish a production centre on Bob and (b) to prevent a 2-civ Bob by defending Spain. With RP eliminated as a power, GS has been facing 2 civs, each with a far-superior Knight unit, and both in Golden Age. With stalemate in the South, our only chance was to strike the enemy at home, but when we tried that we discovered, to our astonishment, that Lego is also comitted to our defeat as well, and we stand on the brink of all powers being openly allied in war against us.

If we elect not to attack GoW, we may instead turn round and say to Lego : "OK guys, you win - you've opposed us, defeated us, and we're getting off Bob. ND and GoW between them will soon have 750 tiles; Lego have 400. GS has 160. What do you think about the balance of power now? Are you still against us?"

Having defeated RP and driven GS from Bob in the above scenario, GoW and ND would either continue their alliance against another target, or they'd split up with ND, taking the whole of Bob. The Bobian uber-power would then have to decide whether Lego or Stormia is next, and if I was them, the prospect of Lego - already overtaking GS economically, catching up (if not already at parity) militarily, miles ahead on tech, still with a GA to come and industrialising soon - would be more threatening than a technologically backward, diplomatically isolated and militarily defeated GS.

True, Lego's 400 tiles against Bob's 750 tiles is better odds than those GS are facing : 200 tiles against 900, but a more even balance of power would see GS's 200 tiles combined with Lego's 400.

If GS were to survive as a competing power to the end-game, as pragmatists we would happily play either a build-out or a duke-out. GoW have no intention of there being a build-out, and so far ND seem to prefer military solutions. You guys are the Builder team, albeit prepared to go to war if you deem it necessary, so you'd surely be hoping for build-out rather than ending the game on GoWs terms (btw - if it came to Lego v Bob with GS out of the game, I personally would be rooting for Lego!).

So, Legonians, I have laid out some reasons why our nations should not be enemies - on the contrary, perhaps we should now be looking at forging closer ties. What say you?


Regards

CH

[redstar1]

hmmm, an interesting message, even more so if it can be fully taken at face value.

In a sense, he is right, GS are restricted on Stormia to the degree that in the later game they will not be able to compete. Not essentially our problem, but 'a' problem nevertheless. He may also be right about how far behind they may be likely to fall.

I've been thinking about this a bit recently, and I've come to the conclusion that Bob is an awful big place, especially with two Civs...

While I am still in favour of continuing with our origional plan, I can see some benefit in suggesting that some of the former RP territory be left in the hands of GS/RP. Not essentially our decision one would have to say.

Here is what I propose:

- Re-iterate our statement to GS regarding the consequences of an attack by them on the GS/ND homeland
- Concede that we may also have 'concerns' over the long term strenght of a 2 civ Bob, and of the long term intentions of a militaristic ND and an oppurtunistic GOW.
- Suggest that their Military focus remain in the former RP territory.
- Give assurances that we will talk to GOW and ND about a plan to bring about the end of the war without any attacks on their homelands
- Re-affirm our beleif that our teams can be long-term allies but state that our current goals and policies are not inherently compatible


What we say and what we do are not necessarily the same. The problem we face is that we seem to have good, if not excellent relations with all 3 teams right now. GS do appear to be putting a lot of thought into our reactions and opinions and that for one leads me into thinking about even longer term goals. There is no doubt this war is good for us, and long may it continue... but the consequences should we be fully dragged into it? That is something I should still like to avoid if possible....