Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[ZargonX]

Well, with the situation on Bob, it's probably time we discuss with GS their view of the situation. As the off-Bobers, we still have a stake in all this. Vondrack, have you chatted with any of them lately? Between the two of us, I'm sure we can catch one of them in a chat room at some point (if poly's chat ever works again, that is...)

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Radek, I don't really understand your reasoning. So us proposing the trade is not OK (though it would give us ~ 10 shields and 10 commerce per turn) but them proposing the trade would be acceptable? This doesn't make sense: it is either useful or is not. If it is useful we could propose it or, if it isn't, we shouldn't accept it.

The reasoning WAS (see below) that if they proposed the deal, its RELATIVE disadvantage (relative disadvantage = more of an advantage for GS than for us) for us would be too small to justify being "difficult to trade with" - so we'd better be easy and take it. BUT as I thought the deal would be helping them more than us, I thought there was no reason to propose it on our own. Forget Bobians ATM, they are second league, there are only two true world powers - us and GS... and I do not really think it is going to change in the foreseeable future.

BUT:

Forget everything what I said - I missed one important thing which occured to me only yesterday. I counted the pop points of GS in their "core" area (approximately S of Diss'ville). 95 pop points - that means they can work 95 tiles max. After "assigning" their pop points to tiles they have available, I found out they are almost at their theoretical maximum. Less than 5 useful land tiles left, I think, plus some coastal ones. Which means that more (happy/content) pop will not help them as much as I thought it would, since they will have no fine tiles to assign the new pop points to.

BTW - their 95 pop points is about 30% more than the 72 pop points of ours. Considering they have almost all their tiles fully improved and that we are working almost exclusively only fully improved tiles, too, I believe their economy has about 30% higher output than ours, at the moment.

So - in the light of this information, scrap what I said about not actively proposing a lux deal with GS. Even if they used it to raise the pop in all their cities that are, in theory, able to, they would still get roughly the same surplus output as us ('cause we have more and better tiles to work with the extra pop).

[vondrack]

BTW, Tibi, you said it VERY well in the public thread.

That post about the GS 'code of honour'.

(and kudos to Deepo for his reaction)

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Well, with the situation on Bob, it's probably time we discuss with GS their view of the situation. As the off-Bobers, we still have a stake in all this. Vondrack, have you chatted with any of them lately? Between the two of us, I'm sure we can catch one of them in a chat room at some point (if poly's chat ever works again, that is...)

DeepO asked for a chat this evening - to "compare notes" on Bobian affairs. Will report and post the log later on.

[Tiberius]

When and where? (the chat)
Should it take place after 8 PM GMT, I could (and wish) to participate, if that's not a problem.

Edit: Poly went down after my post so I suppose there wasn't any chat. Maybe today.

[vondrack]

Oops, sorry, Tibi - haven't had a chance to read your post 'cause of the poly being down. DeepO emailed me and we met at Undernet. Here is the log:

Session Start: Thu Jul 17 22:02:37 2003
Session Ident: #LeuvenV
* Now talking in #LeuvenV
vondrack: hello!
DeepO: hi there!
DeepO: let me see if I can lure some of GS in here
* SirRalph has joined #LeuvenV
DeepO: maybe someone will join later
DeepO:
vondrack: hello, Sir Ralph!
SirRalph: hello
DeepO: okay... let's get this started
vondrack: k
DeepO: first of all, I'm sorry for missing last events
DeepO: rl, and 'poly..
vondrack: np
DeepO: but I felt we needed to chat, certainly with th current war
DeepO: main reason is that it means we won't have anyone buying techs
vondrack: true
* nye has joined #LeuvenV
DeepO: so... do we race along, taking a lead, or back off a little, saving cash?
nye: allo
vondrack: heya, nye!
nye: hi, vonD
DeepO: largely this depends on what you want...
vondrack: we have not discussed that too much, but we lean towards racing along, I believe
DeepO: we can use the cash, to be honest
DeepO: okay
DeepO: so do you have any idea of a favorable ETA?
vondrack: just as with you, once we have our land railroaded and arty stocked, we will feel safe
DeepO: and do we want to keep techs from the others in the mean time?
DeepO: true
DeepO: (I mean to RR)
vondrack: if there is nothing they can offer, probably yes
DeepO: that would include Vox, though...
DeepO: not sure what your standing on that is
vondrack: you mean that we would not trade techs to them either?
DeepO: well.. we still consider them sort of a risk
DeepO: given our history
vondrack:
vondrack: we hope for a different history )
DeepO: so... racing along, keeping techs should be some kind of mutual thing, ideally
vondrack: honestly - this is a bit difficult to generalize about
vondrack: as I said
DeepO: ?
vondrack: as long as there is something we can get for our techs
vondrack: something valuable
vondrack: we are open for trade
DeepO: like lux, or NAPs?
vondrack: but we seek something valuable in return
vondrack: like lux, yes
DeepO: I can imagine...
vondrack: I do not care about NAPs too much
vondrack: you read my posts in the public forum
DeepO: but who would you trade it from?
DeepO: I did, and I agree
DeepO: but don't want to say to much in public
DeepO: last time, that left me nowhere, and damaged the group
vondrack: heh, right...
vondrack: I myself should sometimes better shut up
DeepO: the problem is, that for the next 10 turns or so, it is very hard to see who would be stable enough on Bob
DeepO: as NAPs don't mean much, there is no way of knowing where this war is going to end
DeepO: it looks like RP is on the receiving end, so dealing with them is not so easily
DeepO: but OTOH, they could very well get GoW or ND to backstab eachother
DeepO: we feel very wary of trades for the moment
DeepO: we have some lux deals laid out
DeepO: and I don't think we'll likely get more... or others
DeepO: also, we don't think a situation where Bob is divided in 2 civs is good for us
DeepO: so we're trying to see how we can stabilize them
DeepO: keep 3 civs on Bob, or at least have 2 battered up civs splitting the continent
DeepO: but again... this is very tricky, and if possible, we would want to chat with you about where you want to go
DeepO: so that we can adjust plans...
vondrack: right, 3-civ Bob is best, agreed
vondrack: but that is not likely to happen
vondrack: one of them will go, sooner or later
DeepO: yes... but we (Lego-GS) can perhaps time them going
vondrack: RPers made themsleves a target by never keeping their promises
DeepO: true...
vondrack: yes... at least, we can try
DeepO: the thing is, do we want to?
nye: vonD, are there any conditions that Lego would intervene outside of Legoland?
vondrack: in the foreseeable future, NO
vondrack: we are bound by a treaty
nye: with both nd and gow?
vondrack: nope, just one of them
vondrack: but covers the whole of Bob
nye: it keeps you off bob entirely?
vondrack: yes
nye: wow. how long does it last?
vondrack: just a sec, must check that
vondrack: damn, I cannot - poly is down
DeepO: again
vondrack: I think for like 30 turns at least
nye: it is ok. would you intervene after that?
nye: or be inclined to even look at the possibility
vondrack: maybe, maybe not - whatever I say now would be even less than "informal speculations"
nye: that is all it could be
vondrack: well, all that "builder stuff" is just plain nonsense, you know
vondrack: if we believe it is time to strike, we will
DeepO: so.. you want to invade us?
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: sure - there is no treaty preventing us
nye: oh oh
vondrack:
nye:
nye: ok. a 2 civ bob is a... concern
vondrack: well... if there is a 2 civ Bob, we would have to seriously consider our 'peacenik' strategy, that is for sure
DeepO: I wonder, even if you have a 'no invading Bob' deal
DeepO: does that mean you are at extremely good grounds with that civ?
DeepO: in that you would favour them over any of the others?
vondrack: no, I would not say it that way
vondrack: it was a deal we made when there was an opportunity
DeepO: okay... so you wouldn't mind if we possibly intervened?
DeepO: (very hypotehtically speaking, of course)
vondrack: hmmm... that's a question I haven't anticipated, honestly...
DeepO: well... we share concerns about a 2-civ Bob
DeepO: and while there are a couple of options to keep them from getting there
DeepO: war is one of them...
vondrack: I guess we would not feel any need to get involved
vondrack: though this is mostly my personal feeling
vondrack: this was never discussed in our forum
DeepO: also not by e.g. giving loans to one team in need?
vondrack: ah, that's something different
DeepO: well.. this is completely of the record here
DeepO: this certainly is not something we are decided on
vondrack: no treaty prevents us from doing business with Bobians
DeepO: but it would be my job as an ambassador to know what you think of this
DeepO: business.. yes... but at what cost?
vondrack: well, let me put it this way:
DeepO: and can we complement each other here
DeepO: go ahead
vondrack: there is VERY little love between us and the team in danger
vondrack: but even if we do not like them, we do not like the idea of a 2-civ Bob either
DeepO: it's not that we like RP... but it might be necessary
vondrack: so we may forget our dislikes temporarily
vondrack: and lend a hand if it improves the chances of a prolonged war of attrition on Bob
DeepO: agreed... we're in the same situation, sort of
vondrack: yes, it seems so
DeepO: well... I'm thinking on options here
DeepO: one of them is to keep RP alive until we could trade Chivalry to them
vondrack: so - we may happen to end up helping, economically, a team that would normally be the last one to receive our help
vondrack: sigh
DeepO: but in this case, they need money
DeepO: I feel your pain
vondrack:
vondrack: yes, they do need money
nye: i must go. nice to see you vonD.
DeepO: bye nye
vondrack: take care, nye!
* nye has left #LeuvenV
vondrack: have they contacted you, asking for help?
DeepO: sort of... but not with too much fire
DeepO: they know our relation, of course
DeepO: did they contact you?
vondrack: yes, they did
DeepO: it seems Togas is rallying all the help they can get
DeepO: they probably contacted Vox as well
DeepO: seeing if they can offer a loan
vondrack:
DeepO: talking about options: the other option for us would be to go to Bob ourselves
DeepO: but already, we're not easily defended
DeepO: and we can miss any ganging up on us
vondrack: I doubt the time would be right NOW for you
vondrack: you could actually unite them against you
DeepO: probably yes
DeepO: although it is hard to see how good their relations are, even at war
vondrack: btw - have you sold your map to anyone else?
DeepO: yes we did...
DeepO: didn't I tell you?
DeepO: I think you got the better deal, though
DeepO: as you were one turn later
DeepO: getting all the other maps as well
vondrack: hmmm... then they must know that you will, sooner or later, have to expand overseas
DeepO: but I don't think you'r mind
DeepO: you're right, but that was already clear in the beginning
vondrack: and they also know that your economy is WAY above theirs
DeepO: as we said from the beginning, we have little land...
DeepO: true
DeepO: but we can't blame that Bob doesn't improve their land
DeepO: be blamed
vondrack: re: map - I haven't realized we got other maps, too - focused on your land only
DeepO: as you will have seen, our land is as we said: not very good, but well used
vondrack: true (re: no blame)
DeepO: ah...
vondrack: yep, agreed
DeepO: did you learn anything shockingly new?
vondrack: I would not say so
vondrack: new, yes
vondrack: shockingly new, no
DeepO: okay.. so we were right in selling our map at that moment
vondrack: yes, you could put it that way
DeepO: it still holds some value, but not too much
DeepO: hey, but it was cheap
vondrack:
DeepO: Vox:
vondrack: ok
DeepO: they should have be gone next turn, if all's right
vondrack: yes, that's we have been told
DeepO: right now (I'm not sure if you have the save yet) they have 1 city remaing
DeepO: and a couple of troops on our territory
DeepO: so next turn, you have a new neighbour
vondrack:
vondrack: yeah, should be exciting
DeepO: also, we kind of solved the upkeep question
vondrack: ?
DeepO: by asking them to stay in anarchy for a while
DeepO: lots of troops, little money
vondrack: ah, that's probably a good idea
DeepO: just in case they're asking for money... you already give the land
DeepO: so no need to sponsor them too hard
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: no worries
DeepO: bah, right now Vox can't really touch us anymore
DeepO: so we wish them the best, and hope to keep dealing with them
vondrack: right
DeepO: which maybe can be done by giving them a 40-turn tech to research
DeepO: of course, again in agreement with you
vondrack: yes, that's an idea we discussed with them
DeepO: did you mention to any Bobian civ what you were going for?
DeepO: we didn't, I think
vondrack: nope - nothing beyond what leaked in the public forum
DeepO: but probably they are starting on 40-turn techs as well
DeepO: okay...
vondrack: I would expect that (40t research), yes
DeepO: how could we coordinate research to benefit us best?
vondrack: with us or with them?
DeepO: I mean coordinate Bob's research
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: no idea
DeepO: we already know you goals
vondrack: I expect GoW to go after Invention
DeepO: with their GL prebuild?
vondrack: yes
vondrack: looks like a prebuild for Leo?
DeepO: could be
DeepO: buut they seem to be stalling it
vondrack: would make sense
vondrack: even stalling would make sense
vondrack: in a way
DeepO: as long as you're not lossing shields, yes
DeepO: but when war breaks out? we wouldn't do it as a militaristic civ
DeepO: did you have agreements for Sistine with all of them?
vondrack: I do not think I am at liberty to answer your last question
DeepO: okay, no prob
DeepO: I could always ask
vondrack: yes, of course
vondrack: well, ND would bear the brunt of the RP counteroffensive (if there was any)
vondrack: so GoW may keep prebuilding...
DeepO: don't know...
DeepO: it depends on naval activities
vondrack: since they are not directly threatened
DeepO: remember Inchon?
DeepO: (not to brag, mind you)
DeepO: but we gave them the idea
DeepO: we fear...
vondrack: that was over a distance that was MUCH shorter
DeepO: not really
DeepO: but it was easier because of sea waters we could use, avoiding spotting
DeepO: on coastal waters
vondrack: yeah
DeepO: once they have astro... it's basically the same
vondrack: and where would they get Astro
DeepO: well.. hence my question
DeepO: it might be one of the tings you could support them with
DeepO: buut I'm not sure if it is wanted
DeepO: (of course, it also threatens us too)
vondrack: ATM, that (Astro) is not a subject of any negotiations
DeepO: okay, that's good to hear
DeepO: so... what about etas for our techs?
DeepO: if we or you want to support RP with money, we need to delay tech trading
DeepO: right now, we spend a bit of money on rushing some buildings in place
vondrack: 10 or 11 turns for us on Astro, I think
DeepO: and IIRC, we could have banking in 8 or so turns, but would prefer a bit later
DeepO: 11 turns seem a good start...
vondrack: ok
DeepO: come to think of it, we might need a more rigid deal if we want to race ahead
DeepO: I mean, 20 turn NDA won't be enough
vondrack: true
DeepO: if we don't want to start distrusting each other
DeepO: and we don't want that
vondrack: I think I did mention that we would be ok with eternal NDAs
DeepO: yes... but those also have problems
DeepO: it's not that we anticipate us ever declaring war on you, but you never know
DeepO: and... even in war, our code would prevent us from reselling
DeepO: hmmm... tricky...
vondrack: feel free to come up with whatever suits you best
vondrack: we are not really in the reselling business that much
DeepO: us neither
vondrack: more in the researching business
vondrack: though still way behind yourself
DeepO: I don't think so
DeepO: but again, you never know what happens
vondrack: yes, agreed
DeepO: we still lack a couple of buildings...
vondrack: but with "eternal NDAs" - you can always renegotiate on case by case basis
DeepO: agree
vondrack: it is just that you do not need to worry about the NDA running out
DeepO: which eventually it may lead to anyway
vondrack: which is the case with GoW ATM, e.g.
DeepO: also Re: chivalry?
vondrack: ?
DeepO: I mean, do you have an eternal NDA on Chiv?
vondrack: nope
DeepO: aha
DeepO: I feared we were the only one able to sell it to RP
DeepO: Ah, I see... I missed one of your sentences above
DeepO: sorry about the confusion
vondrack: np

[vondrack]

Part II:

vondrack: hey! I just spotted something!
DeepO: ?
vondrack: I have the latest save loaded in the background
vondrack: checking things as we talk
vondrack: we can trade!
DeepO: so... I was right all along!
DeepO: that should be the lighthouse at work...
vondrack: that must be the harbour of Zargonia + The Great Lighthouse
vondrack: we finished the harbour last turn
DeepO: aha... cool!
DeepO: care for a lux-lux trade?
vondrack: well, we have only one lux, but if you are interested, we will go for it, of course
vondrack: (dyes)
DeepO: oh, sure, we can always use lux
DeepO: I'll have to check, but I think you have the choice: incense or furs
DeepO: maybe even both...
DeepO: (not against your dyes only, of course)
vondrack: I think simple 1lux for 1lux would be the way to go ATM
vondrack: we are not really drowning in money ATM
vondrack: and with the RP begging for gold...
DeepO: which would be fine for us, I'm sure
DeepO: okay, I understand
DeepO: but neither are we
vondrack: right
DeepO: maybe some further rules:
vondrack: yes?
DeepO: to try to get a proposal going
DeepO: we consider lux-lux trades as indefinate
DeepO: in that we don't keep to 20-turn rules
vondrack: fine with us
DeepO: but... in case we would cancel a deal, we give teams a 1-turn warning
vondrack: ok
DeepO: just so no cities go into disorder
vondrack: good
DeepO: if that suits you, I'll try to get a PM going
vondrack: yes, sounds like a deal
DeepO: and you could offer furs this turn,
DeepO: so that we don't deny each other the lux
vondrack: dyes?
DeepO: sorry, dyes
vondrack: ok
DeepO: hey, that was an easy deal
DeepO: it took us about 2 minutes
vondrack: yeah, you're a pushover...
DeepO: sorry about that
vondrack: LoL
DeepO: I hope 'poly is up again, so we can finalize this in our forum asap
DeepO: I mean, there won't be any problem, but it has to be ratified by the team
vondrack: ok, I will post about it in our forum, too
DeepO: great
vondrack: same with us
DeepO: anything else?
vondrack: prolly not
DeepO: I'm a getting a bit empty here
vondrack: ok, let's get some sleep then
DeepO: fine... I hope to see you soon
vondrack: give our best regards to your people
vondrack: take care
DeepO: and I hope I'll get back to my Sundays
vondrack:
DeepO: sweet dreams!
vondrack: you too
vondrack: bye
* DeepO has left #LeuvenV
Session Close: Thu Jul 17 23:14:52 2003

So, I am adding the lux trade order to the turn plan.

[vondrack]

Few comments:

RPers will not go easily. Both us and them consider it a must from the strategic PoV to support them in the war. GS to the extent of considering a direct military involvement.

Luxury trade negotiated - I changed my mind and proposed it myself (because of finding out GS was close to having their territory almost "fully saturated" with labourers). Simple 1-for-1, no expiry date (that is very good for us, as the profit will be higher and higher for us).

[redstar1]

Excellent, that lux trade is a real bonus!

From a bit of research I don't think RP will be disappearing any time soon. Outlying cities are vulnerable but I imagine they will be able to draw back into the older cities and hold out for a good long while. The longer the better really....

[vondrack]

Here is the formal contract with GS:

Hello Vondrack,

I hope this gets to you in time (i.e. before 'poly crashes down again ): a more formal agreement on our lux-lux trade. It includes the 'special' conditions of the trade, as mentioned in last chat. If any of this does not suit you, please let me know, and we can regenotiate. (although it may be best to contact either Arrian or nye in that case, I will probably not be able to respond for at least the next 24h)

1. Legoland and Gathering Storm agree to a mutual luxury deal. Legoland will provide dyes, getting GS's furs in return (if you rather want incense, let us know).

2. This deal is considered indefinate, and is not bound to the 20-turn limits PtW defines.

3. Both teams are free to cancel the deal at any turn, for whatever reason (which they are free to state). However, if this deal gets canceled, the cancelling team should warn the other team one turn ahead, so they can prepare for the loss of happiness in their cities, avoiding any of these to fall into disorder.

4. As always, the spirit of this agreement is more important then its exact wording, in case any doubts arise, renegotiation between the teams should occur

Ratified by Gathering Storm

kind regards,
DeepO

I am going to sign and return it to DeepO within a few hours.

[ZargonX]

Stick with the furs, I say.

[Sharpe]

Whatever luxury they have LESS of IMHO - to cut down on the number of civs that get it.

As I said in the RP thread, clearly GS has the same concerns that we do re 2 civ Bob and trying to extend the war. So we should coordinate with them on this - it is in both our civs best interests - and if GoW and ND find out - tough - are they really going to take on RP plus the 2 strongest civs in the game? - I doubt it... and the truth is very soon now GS+us combined (even not including our Vox friends) will be stronger than all of Bob civs combined.

Regarding gold or speeding up tech, I would switch between the two - clearly we need to continue to upgrade our forces (which will be even more expensive when gunpowder comes around) - but pulling more ahead of the Bob civs would be good as well. So I would switch between these two strategies - right now Banking and Astronomy are important to us - but for less important techs, we can afford to slow down a bit.

[lmtoops]

Sharpe makes some very good points. We need to really pump up RP in coordination with GS, but lets stick to what we can afford. We need gold for upgrades and rush builds, but we also want to maintain a tech lead. That does not leave much gold for war loans.

Let's face it...supporting RP during the war is probably our 4th priority (upgrades, research, growth,...) or maybe even a lower priority. So these other things come first and then we can help RP with what is left.

Leo

[vondrack]

No good news today, gentlemen...

Session Start: Mon Jul 21 14:07:04 2003
Session Ident: #blabla
* Now talking in #blabla
vondrack: hello!
DeepO: hello there!
DeepO: thanks you could make it in such short notice
vondrack: no problem - I am working from home
DeepO: but I think it will interest you...
vondrack: ok, go ahead
DeepO: ah, okay
DeepO: the past few days, we have been discussing how to help RP
DeepO: and stabilize Bob.
DeepO: as we didn't want to give them money,
DeepO: and after seeing their military situation (at least to as far as they want to disclose it)
DeepO: we decided to intervene...
DeepO: we currently have the 2 cities in our position that were most threatened by Nd and GoW
DeepO: if they attack us, we go to Bob
vondrack: you mean possession?
DeepO: not sure how it will move after that
DeepO: yes... they were gifted by RP
vondrack: ah, I see
DeepO: they were certain losses
vondrack: which ones?
DeepO: Santiago on the ND side
DeepO: and Bilbao on the GoW side
vondrack: hmmm... we were offered Santiago and Leon, IIRC
DeepO: Leon?
vondrack: I think so
DeepO: strange... but it could be that this will continue
vondrack: let me check
DeepO: did you accept?
DeepO: thanks
vondrack: nope
vondrack: we cannot
vondrack: (treaty obligations)
DeepO: ah, yes
DeepO: forgot about that
DeepO: actually, we never agreed to not go to Bob
DeepO: but there are treatie(s) in place
DeepO: can't disclose them, but it will be interested if they get broken
vondrack: yes, Santiago and Leon it was
DeepO: Bilbao is a certain loss, but it will autoraze if attacked
DeepO: we're mighty curtious to see if GoW would do it
DeepO: ND we kind of expect to attack us
DeepO: I want to stress that this should not hamper other plans
DeepO: I mean, for the moment, we're still on par with research
vondrack: ok
DeepO: at least that's what we hope
vondrack: btw - no problem, if you slow down a bit
DeepO: well... one or 2 turns could work
DeepO: it would help, of course
DeepO: but our larger goal still is to speed along in research
vondrack: we do not need Banking on the very same turn we finish Astro
vondrack: so - feel free to set the pace that suits you best
DeepO: okay, that's nice
DeepO: thanks!
vondrack: hmmm... this is big news, it really is
DeepO: if I can ask, does this 'invasion' of Bob worry you?
DeepO: well, we wanted to let you know before uyou would find out on the public forum
vondrack: well, at least, it is something we have to consider thoroughly
vondrack: my first impression would be 'worried', yes
DeepO: main goal is to stablize Bob, and how the RP situation looked, it was a lost cause
DeepO: I can imagine... sorry about that
vondrack: though there are so many consequences that we will have to mull them over a bit
DeepO: buut we needed to do something, or we would be facing a 2-civ Bob in less then 10 turns
vondrack: if you believe it is the best way, there certainly must be good reasons to do so
DeepO: please contact me whenever you want more info
vondrack: ok, I will
vondrack: thanks for the heads-up
DeepO: well... it seems RP was defending our coast as well
DeepO: and so have verry few defenders in place
vondrack: did they submit any evidence of what they say?
DeepO: we've seen screenshots, yes
vondrack: ok
DeepO: otherwise I don't think we would have gone for it
vondrack: right, yes
DeepO: and as much as we distrust RP
DeepO: we don't think they will doctor screenies
vondrack: I wonder why is their powergraph so mighty then?
DeepO: amount of cities...
DeepO: plus, they have a large number of troops
DeepO: but those are spread out
DeepO: and can't defend adequately against 3-move UUs
vondrack: yeah, that's true - they have overstretched big time
vondrack: pure greed, I would say
DeepO: in hindsight, they needed to defend our coast
DeepO: indeed (to the greed)
DeepO: of course, we will not do this for nothing
DeepO: we might end up with a couple of cities in RPs land
vondrack: oh? you will not???
vondrack:
DeepO: well... stablisation is one point
DeepO: but we're not foolish either
DeepO: as you said before, we need to have some expansion
DeepO: buut for the moment, all territory discussion revolve around one point:
DeepO: we take territory which makes us safer
DeepO: meaning we avoid RP having 1-turn crossings to Stormia
DeepO: what we will get will be horribly corrupt, though
* opd has joined #blabla
DeepO: hi opd
opd: lo
vondrack: hello!
vondrack: does this include New Madrid?
DeepO: I just told Vondrack about us getting a couple of cities
DeepO: perhaps... not for the moment
opd: cool
DeepO: but we might need it if we are going to land troops
DeepO: and take on one of the other teams...
DeepO: discussion is still on-going
DeepO: and we're not looking to become one of 2-civ Bob
DeepO: if forced... well... who can say
vondrack: well, not much else to say ATM, I guess
vondrack: I have to take this to the team
DeepO: yes, please do
DeepO: but keep us informed of what you think
DeepO: we highly value your opinions
DeepO: and will proceed according to them
vondrack: ATM, just one thing:
vondrack: be WARY of RPers
DeepO:
opd: how do you mean?
vondrack: 'accusations' read in the public forum were not based on nothing
vondrack: they promised help right and left
DeepO: Vox?
vondrack: never kept their word
DeepO: the point is, we can't let this happen
vondrack: understood
DeepO: the only other option would have been to attack RP
DeepO: but gangin up on an already won war... not our style
vondrack: all I say is: stay vigilant...
opd: have they broken their word to you before?
DeepO: at least this will make it interesting
vondrack: opd - I could not formulate it this way, no
DeepO: Do you have more info on Vox?
DeepO: as we would want them to understand this as well
vondrack: with Beta gone for vacations, our contact are sparse these days
vondrack: the game is slow anyway
vondrack: we expect their arrival at Legos Minor
DeepO: yes, but heated
vondrack: yup
DeepO: next turn, everything should be ready
DeepO: we made the final step this turn
vondrack: ok then
vondrack: I will report to my team
vondrack: and let you know if there is anything
DeepO: ok, thanks for hearing us out!
vondrack: worth further discussion
DeepO: very true
DeepO: we'll leave you to work, then
vondrack: my pleasure - and thanks for keeping us informed
vondrack:
vondrack: have a nice... errr, I mean: take care
vondrack:
DeepO:
DeepO: bye
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Mon Jul 21 14:30:24 2003

I have to mull this over before posting any comments...

[Tiberius]

Well, there's not too much we can do about it. Baiscally nothing, at least not now. We shall see how things are going and in the end we might help ND or GoW, with technology for example. This would let them concentrate on the military exclusively.

GS fighting against GoW and ND is good, at least until one of them gains too much.

We don't have the military right now to intervene, but should GS gain too much land, we could send troops to help one of the Bob civs. This is however a long term business. For now we can't do more than wait, watch and build up our military.