Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Message from DeepO... why am I not surprised to see that New Madrid will remain in GS' hands "longer than anticipated"...?

Vondrack,

I'm sorry to have missed the chat yesterday, I came home much too late, and went straight for bed. However, if possible, I would like to reschedule it for tonight... given your last message, there are some things we need to discuss. Would 21:00 GMT suit you?

BTW, I mentioned in my last message that New Madrid was going to be returned to RP in 50 AD... but the plans have changed somewhat, we need to hold on to it for at least a couple more turns, as it can't be defended by RP against GoW (and they are threatening the city)

Hope to see you tonight,
DeepO

[ZargonX]

Hmm... so RP can't defend it, but GS feels they have enough forces to hold it against GoW in place already? Either this means that GoW still isn't actively attacking GS, which is bad news; or, GS has a strong contingent of forces in place already, which is also bad news. Nothing good in this PM

[vondrack]

The chatlog:

Session Start: Mon Aug 04 22:09:33 2003
Session Ident: #bananaman
* Now talking in #bananaman
* nye has joined #bananaman
DeepO: okay...
DeepO: I'm not entirely sure about your last message
DeepO: was it meant as a final warning?
DeepO: or rather a breaking of diplomatic ties?
vondrack: if it was breaking diplomatic ties, I would not be here, I think
DeepO: because we feel you have the wrong impression of what's happening.
vondrack: rather an urgent warning
DeepO: well, we hoped so much
DeepO: okay, did my reply satisfy your worries?
vondrack: humm... not much, to be honest...
vondrack: but it's not the message
vondrack: it's how the whole war is going
DeepO: please explain
vondrack: RPers seem to be crumbling
vondrack: and we can see you trying to fill their space
vondrack: at least that is what we would try to do if we were yourself
DeepO: we're doing all we can to keep RP alive
DeepO: and we have no interest in their space
vondrack: ummm... GS has no interest in territory on Bob?
DeepO: apart from one point: we have always valued the Lego relation, and want to continue that
DeepO: your concerns are taken into account
DeepO: well, no that's not right. But as explained, we want only the strategic stuff
DeepO: anyway, perhaps nye can explain it better
DeepO: nye?
nye: vondrack, we need to occupy part of the frontage for rp. we need the cities in the area that we will defend.
vondrack: that has always been clear
nye: ok. so we are doing that
vondrack: though the "part" is getting bigger every turn...
vondrack: almost every turn
nye: yes, the riders approach
vondrack: see, guys, it is like this: as long as we feel that GS is a rival we can cope with peacefully, we will stick to peaceful ways
nye: understood
vondrack: once we believe you (or anyone else!) are getting too powerful, we will have to change our approach
vondrack: this applies to EVERY other team in this game
vondrack: we may be silly builders, but we still know the rules...
vondrack: one team to bind them all...
nye: heh
nye: yes, i suppose we all want to win
Aeson: knew we shouldn't let nye put our secret plans on his sig!
vondrack: the message we sent you was meant to indicate we were getting increasingly worried about how things proceed on Bob
nye: we understand
nye: however, we are telling you that many of the cities you see are short term. we need them to defend the area
vondrack: understood - we are not hurrying troops to Bob either yet
vondrack: just a side-note... did you guys anticipated how fast RPers would be falling?
nye: there has been a lot of misinformation posted. we can see how it would be confusing
vondrack: looking at the map, it looks like they have already lost the war
nye: this is not a good time for them
vondrack: yeah
vondrack: they asked for help
vondrack: we have been extensively discussing helping them somehow
vondrack: in a non-military way
nye: it would be good if you could lend assistance
vondrack: but all we seem to have (almost) available at this moment
vondrack: would be Astronomy
vondrack: and Education, I think - they do not have it yet
vondrack: either
nye: some gold would help them
vondrack: our coffers are almost empty
nye: but that is up to you and your team
vondrack: and frankly, we do not feel like giving them gold
vondrack: too risky business
nye: how risky?
vondrack: how long do you expect them to last?
Aeson: because they are just losing cities
vondrack: "just"?
Aeson: meant that's why it's risky
nye: with adequate help, they are not lost
vondrack: I can see only 2 decent Spanish cities left
Aeson: to give them gold... losing cities loses gold
vondrack: true... though I can imagine they would immediately use the gold for rushes
nye: i would think they would
Aeson: so then why does Lego consider it risky?
vondrack: since we are less then sure they will be around long enough to provide something in return
nye: we were forced to look at it another way
nye: not what rp could give us in return
DeepO: true
nye: but, did we want to see nd triple in size
nye: all near their palace
vondrack: we do not believe ND would be allowed to take all their land
vondrack: they would either have to give up something to GoW
vondrack: or GoW would backstab
nye: yes, but nd could double or more in size and gow would still get bits
DeepO: we may have deterioted that equation, btw
vondrack: ?
DeepO: because we only hampered GoW for the moment
DeepO: as ND was out of reach
vondrack: yeah
DeepO: the treaty could very well have been that for each city GoW takes
DeepO: they would receive on up North
DeepO: now, GoW is not taking cities
DeepO: making ND even more powerful
nye: i think you are on the right track, deepo
DeepO: I suspected as much for a while
DeepO: but there were little other options left
DeepO: and... if such a treaty is in place
DeepO: GoW would be very concerned about a backstab too
nye: not if we wanted to prevent the rise of two civs each the size of lego in land
DeepO: well yes, but in interfering, we destabilized the GoW-ND balance
DeepO: we need to go through with this, now
DeepO: but we can't, if we also have Lego to worry about...
nye: do you see why we got involved, vondrack?
vondrack: I am not sure you are right, DeepO... their alliance seems to be pretty solid
DeepO: don't bet on it
vondrack: yes, we do see that, of course
DeepO: the point is: there is no alliance
DeepO: GoW is under contract
DeepO: once the contract is gone: no more alliance
vondrack: you sure?
vondrack: the posts in the public forum would indicate otherwise
vondrack: though I might have been misreading them
nye: no, we are not
DeepO: well, not definately
DeepO: but all the public posts seem to go in that direction
nye: btw, vondrack. does lego have any questions about all that business in the forums?
vondrack:
nye: i will answer, if i can
vondrack:
vondrack: I do not care the tiniest bit
vondrack: even if I am unable to resist and keep reading all the stuff
nye: i thought some of your team might have some questions
vondrack: if they had, they'd ask, I think
vondrack: we have no policy re: posting in the public forum
vondrack: everybody is free to get involved
DeepO: we don't have much policy either, it seems
nye: how can anyone believe half the stuff posted on the forum?
vondrack: half???
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: sometimes I can barely believe the posters' names...
nye: disinformation has been very well demonstrated in this game, in that forum
DeepO: most of it coming from GoW...
nye: i wouldn't say that, DeepO
vondrack: it was Vox before, it was RPers all the time...
DeepO: well... most, not everything
DeepO: ah, true
DeepO: forgot about the Vox war
vondrack:
vondrack: propaganda is part of this game
vondrack: like it or not
nye: i find it interesting that opinions are made based on the propaganda
vondrack: though - I still think the actual effect of the propaganda is very limited
vondrack: and most ingame decisions are based on facts
vondrack: not propaganda
DeepO: like RP, even if they're not exactly our buddies, needing our help?
vondrack: but - yes, it is very interesting to watch the prop wars and their outcomes
nye: that is why i was wondering if lego felt they needed any facts about all that business
vondrack: well
vondrack: the facts...
vondrack: fact: GS and RP are fighting GoW and ND
DeepO: defending against would be our chosen words
vondrack: hehe - but it was me choosing them...
nye: that would be gloss, though
nye: please go on, vondrack
vondrack: fact: if any of these teams start getting the upper hand, we have to seriously consider
vondrack: how much peacenick we really are
nye: true
vondrack: since once the war is over
vondrack: our options will be very limited
vondrack: overseas invasions are extremely costly
vondrack: if there is no instant beachhead
vondrack: like in your case
vondrack: so... the "facts" discussed in the public forum
vondrack: are sort of... irrelevant for us
vondrack: it's not that important who started it
vondrack: we still have to watch very carefully
nye: yes
vondrack: and if the balance shifts too much in any direction
vondrack: we may be forced to get involved
vondrack: just like you felt you had to intervene on behalf of RP
nye: so, you are likely to march against those who are winning?
vondrack: sounds funny...
vondrack: but it is probably true
vondrack: it's difficult to say
vondrack: without knowing the exact context
nye: well, as you can see... at this rate there will soon be only 4 armies in the world
vondrack: ?
vondrack: are RPers losing even troops?
nye: rp is fighting, while they have lost production potential
vondrack: true
nye: so, eventually, their army will not be very big
nye: so, then there will be 4
vondrack: yeah, that sounds just about right
nye: i wonder...
nye: there is so much invested in the game, by so many people
vondrack: that's probably why the flames use to be so intense
nye: would it be possible for a couple of civs to agree on conduct of the later game?
vondrack: not sure what you mean
nye: how will victory be achieved?
nye: conquest?
nye: domination?
nye: un?
nye: space ship?
nye: the first two are almost impossible
nye: in this sort of game
vondrack: whoever pulling them would be a true master
nye: yes, they would be
vondrack: frankly, I have no idea myself... but I know I sometimes wish this game was over
vondrack: I really wish so...
nye: i know what you mean
DeepO: hmmm...same here
Aeson: we could speed it up
vondrack: LoL
DeepO: Vondrack, one of the problems we face
DeepO: is that on one hand we need the gold for RP
DeepO: on the other we want to keep researching
DeepO: we still value a tech-partner
DeepO: one sec
vondrack: k
DeepO: Shiber is knocking
DeepO: okay, that should do it
DeepO: so... seeing as domination or conquest are near impossible
DeepO: we need research.
DeepO: your last message got us worried quite a bit,
DeepO: as it had an undertone of: we don't want no deals no more
DeepO: in that case, banking wouldn't do us much good
* Shiber has joined #bananaman
Shiber: Hi.
vondrack: hi
DeepO: but we would be obligied to research it
DeepO: hi Shiber
DeepO: the thing is: we want to research
DeepO: if we want to research
DeepO: we can't go ful in this war
DeepO: and, if we don't have the guarantee we can trade later, it won't be good for us to speed along
DeepO: which makes us much more depending on what you decide
DeepO: and also explains in part why we value you position so much
vondrack: do you need to slow down your banking research?
DeepO: no, not really needed
DeepO: as it would only make our position after the war worse
DeepO: RP just will have to manage with what we can invest
nye: well, if we both slowed down, we could both assist rp more
DeepO: that might be needed...
Shiber: As it looks now, RP could become extinct real soon.
vondrack: well, we DID discuss the way of helping RP - but we pretty much ruled gold out, to be honest
vondrack: you have correctly pointed out
vondrack: that they have pretty much lost their production potential
DeepO: temporary!
vondrack: and building units for gold will be VERY costly
nye: they don;t lose any cash to cities falling, if they use it to rush
vondrack: yeah, sure - but it would be our cash...
DeepO: ours as well, Vondrack
vondrack: true
DeepO: RP needs the cash, and as much as we want them to stay alive, we won't be the only supporters, I fear...
nye: well, if they do not get enough assitance, then they will go down. that would leave 2 Bob civs.
DeepO: X-posting
vondrack: guys, I can see what you are trying to suggest - but I am not authorized to promise anything regarding this
vondrack: all I can do is to bring it to my team
nye: of course
vondrack: otherwise, I would be acting against what we have decided so far
nye: it would be enough for lego to consider it
nye: that is a good beginning
DeepO: I very good one...
vondrack: the log will be posted, as usually - and there is always a discussion about it
DeepO: but please, don't wait too long
DeepO: ND is seriously pressuring RP
DeepO: anything else?
vondrack: I do not think so...
DeepO: I'm leaving, so sweat dreams!
vondrack: good night, everybody
DeepO: and thanks for the chat
vondrack: my pleasure
vondrack: take care, guys!
Aeson: bye vondrack!
Session Close: Mon Aug 04 23:14:06 2003

I just hope I confused them as hell.

[lmtoops]

Oh, this is so confusing.

Vondrack, you did a great job of balancing truth and not making any commitments.

They sound very believable, but bottom line is: if GS wants to win, they must take part of Bob. So unless something drastic happens, we need to stick to our plans.

At least they now know that if they are on Bob, they risk a war with us.

As far as supporting RP, we could never give enough to save a dying team. I think GS understands that.

[Kloreep]

GS has me convinced they may actually have trouble with ND & GoW once RP falls. May. But if they do, that just means we don't have to intervene to protect ND & GoW's cores.

But I don't see any reason to change our plans after this chat. GS is still a big threat, especially considering our military comparisons to ND and to GS.

[vondrack]

Good news from GS. Great news, actually.

To Vondrack & the People of Legoland:

As the people of Legoland are no doubt aware, the people of the Gathering Storm are presently engaged in the War-to-not-quite-end-all-wars. It is a difficult time for our nation. Aside from the normal stresses of combat, there is the issue of cash flow.

We have previously agreed to research banking in exchange for your research of Astronomy. At the outset, I'd like to be clear that, if Legoland insists upon it, we will certainly abide by the terms of our original deal. However, if your people are willing to restructure the deal in mutually agreeable fashion that would allow the Gathering Storm more free cash for the prosecution of the war, we would be most appreciative. I and my teamates are open to creative solutions, so please don't hesitate to throw some into the mix.

Here is the one thought we've come up with thus far: as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), Legoland is also interested in the technology of Invention. Invention is less expensive than Banking. What it the Gathering Storm researched Invention instead, and either 1) provided cash reimbursement to Legoland for the difference in technology cost at a later date; or 2) received cash from Legoland for Invention, and not Astronomy. Clearly, I cannot anticipate your exact wants/needs, so my ideas may not be of much use to you. This is why I encourage you to propose other solutions that perhaps fit Legoland's plans better.

The long and the short of it is that we need cash right now, and researching banking (though it could be done) would be quite a strain, and hamper our war efforts. I am by no means naive enough to believe you have any particular interest in assisting our war efforts. However, I do believe it is in your interests to keep us fighting. I can't imagine Legoland wants a decisive victory for ND + GoW, anymore than it wants a decisive victory for GS + RP. So obviously it is up to you to guage whether or not restructuring our tech deal is in your best interests. I leave it to you. As I said, if Legoland insists, we will abide by the original deal.

Respectfully,

-Arrian

Co-general of the armies of the Gathering Storm
Assistant Ambassador to the people of Legoland

I believe this is our golden chance to have this whole deal scrapped, denying Astronomy to GS (read: keeping our Western coast safe).

I suggest we respond basically with truth - just not the whole of it... ..that we have already arranged a trade for Invention. I'd "hesitantly" offer to scrap this whole deal - asking (in a bit "upset" way) whether GS would want us to return the little gold balance we got for the research cost difference between Astronomy and Banking (I'd expect them to respond with - "oh, no, thank you, just keep that change, we consider that a small price for being allowed to legally back out of a deal which is not that great for us at the moment").

What do you think?

[vondrack]

Few more thoughts:

If we use this wonderful opportunity to back out of this tech trade (upon the request of GS! ) now, GS will:

a) not be able to upgrade their galleys to caravels
b) two techs away from Navigation, thus unable to threaten our western coast for many turns
c) waste their time researching something we get basically for free, allowing us to regain the tech lead we had before trading them Theo/Edu
d) waste their gold on something that I consider a lost cause (support of RPers)
e) make RPers last a bit longer -> make our eventual contribution to the allied war effort all that more important

The more I am thinking of this, the more convinced I am we should "agree" to scrapping the Astro/Banking swap altogether.

[Tiberius]

Great! They will research something that we will probably get faster and then they won't be able to beat us on Gunpowder, (because they need the cashflow, too while we will get financing).

Besides they won't be able to research Navigation. It couldn't be better than that!

[ZargonX]

This is pretty good news. This basically solves the entire GS-Astro debate for us. Vondrack, if you want to write up something like you proposed, saying that we already have a deal for Inv in place, and can't reneg on it (that would be dishonorable ), but that we understand GS' plight, and would accept it if they needed to back out of the deal. And, of course, we'd be willing to renegotiate something for Astro with them in the future

[vondrack]

I will put something together and post it later today - we should not respond too fast, I think... after all, we are supposed to discuss creative solutions, you know...

I will just briefly acknowledge getting the PM and promise to get back to them within 48 hours.

[vondrack]

My brief response to Arrian:

Arrian,

Just briefly acknowledging the receipt of your message. While I personally understand your reasons and needs, I am unable to give you an answer immediately. Changing a tech trade like this will require some discussion and perhaps a re-poll in our team.

One thing I can tell you immediately, though, is that we have already pre-arranged a trade for Invention. We shall get it not immediately after finishing our Astronomy research, but in a reasonable timeframe (soon enough, considering our needs, I'd say) and at a reasonable price, so that's not what we would ask for instead of Banking.

I will present your message to my team and get back to you as soon as I have an official response (I will do my best to have it within 48 hours - certainly before your next turn comes up).

Best regards,
vondrack

[lmtoops]

I rather doubt they would want to scrap the Astronomy deal completely, but they may have little choice in the matter.

As for us, I'll all for scrapping the deal. The only reason we are honoring the deal is for...well honor and to maintain the neutrality smoke screen.

We should recommend scrapping the remainder of the deal and offer any reasonable compensation. Then the ball is in their court; what do they really want more. They can have immediate gold, but lose Astronomy OR less gold and gain Astronomy. In either case, we are helping the war effort...of course I prefer the no Astronomy option.

[vondrack]

So, here is a draft of our "official" response regarding the Astronomy/Banking deal. I'll appreciate comments, even if it's just 'ok' - I am not going to send it to Arrian until I get some feedback.

Dear Arrian,

We have discussed your last message in our Senate. Here is what has become apparent from the discussion and what is now our official stance:

1) We understand your needs and wish to accomodate you. As indicated several times in the public forum, we are well aware of that if a deal ceases to work for both parties, it's time to change it - unless one is happy to make the other party unhappy.

2) ATM, we are basically interested in gold and techs only - neither of which seems to work well for you, as long as a deal for Astronomy is concerned - since you need gold for your war efforts and intend to research Invention (instead of Banking), which we have already prearranged a deal for with another team.

3) Considering the previous two points, we believe that the best solution now would be to agree to renegotiate the tech trade agreement currently in effect, scrapping the Astronomy for Banking tech swap part. We would not hold this against Gathering Storm - it would be a mutually approved change to an existing trade agreement.

4) The trade agreement in effect included a certain, though not expressly specified amount of gold meant to balance the beaker cost difference between Astronomy and Banking. Would you ask for a reimbursement? If you would - what would be the amount and payment schedule?

5) As long as the previous point does not become an issue, we are ready to officially amend the current deal, so that it would not include the Astronomy for Banking swap.

I hope this at least to a certain extent meets your needs. We would hope to trade Astronomy with you once there are other/more options available.

Respectfully,
vondrack
FAM of Legoland

[vondrack]

After discussing with Sharpe and ZargonX, I PMed the message to Arrian with no changes.

[lmtoops]

I should have posted my approval. I read through the message and it looked flawless, so I didn't create a post.

As for being flawless...don't let it go to your head