Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Tiberius]

Agreed.

[vondrack]

OK, here is an updated draft - includes several adjustments to reflect the developments in the public "peace thread":

Honourable People of Gathering Storm,

In the light of the recent public announcements of Vox Controli and Gathering Storm, considering the current situation in the world, Legoland prays this war would end soon. We do not dare to judge your deeds and/or demands as moral or immoral, legal or illegal, justified or unjustified... we simply wish this war was over, humbled Vox Controli left with whatever little land in Northern Estonia GS could consider acceptable.

In order to express our genuine interest in having this war end, Legoland offers what little it can ATM to offset the inconvenience caused to GS by letting the remains of the Voxian nation keep their very homeland in the Northern Estonia. Once peace with Vox would be signed, Legoland would be happy to provide GS with Theology free of charge, asking for just two simple conditions: that GS agrees to not attempt building the Sistine's Chapel (which we consider unlikely, given the comments on the lack of basic infrastructure in your war torn country) and that GS does not trade Theology to any other team unless that team agrees to waive the Sistine's Chapel as well.

We believe that if every team sincerely wishing for peace considers some kind of a "balance", peace may still be a viable option even for Gathering Storm.

May the peace rule over Estonia.

signed...

a) scrapped the reference to Elipolis; no longer in Vox hands anyway
b) scrapped the reference to our past prediscussed deals; weakens the value of the proposal needlessly
c) added a sidenote about it seems unlikely GS would be trying to build Sistine's Chapel; makes the no Sistine clause look like less of a concession from GS
d) added an indirect hint that we naturally do not consider free Theology THE reason to accept the peace treaty offered by Voxes - but that GS troubles caused by letting Voxes live in Northern Estonia might be offset by other teams making concessions like we are offering

I admit that this is 99.9% just a waste of time. GS made it clear that they will not agree to peace, so they will most likely reject this proposal - and quite vigorously. But serves several purposes:

a) gives us a valid pretext to not discuss trading Theology to GS for some time (until we "forget" of their stuborness re: this matter)
b) more or less prompts GS to respond with "if you are serious about helping Voxes, offer them refuge on your landmass", which is exactly what we want to hear
c) attaches the no Sistine clause to the Theology deal. If GS counters refusing to sign peace, but still showing interest in getting Theology from us for "allowing Voxes to safely evacuate from Estonia" (which is apparently what they would be willing to agree to), we'll still insist on the no-Sistine clause - which is our true reason for offering this deal in the first place.
d) bounces the Theology ball to GS' half of the court - it will be their turn now. ATM, considering our past talks, it's us who should come up with an official proposal.

[vondrack]

Hmmm... considering how the situation develops in the public thread, I'm no longer sure sending this would do any good... any thoughts?

Note: It seems that whatever I am going to say there, GS will take it as an attack on them... so I am no longer going to participate in the discussion.

Though I still believe the situation is mature for pushing a deal including the no Sistine clause on. Just that we probably need to formulate the offer differently...

[vondrack]

Yet another draft, struggling to keep pace with the public thread:

Honourable People of Gathering Storm,

In the light of the recent public announcements of Vox Controli and Gathering Storm, considering the current situation in the world, Legoland prays this war would end soon. We do not dare to judge your deeds and/or demands as moral or immoral, legal or illegal, justified or unjustified... we simply wish this war was over, humbled Vox Controli left with a piece of land to "retire" for the rest of the game.

In order to demonstrate our genuine interest in having this war end, Legoland offers what little it has at this moment to make peace at least a viable option for GS. Once peace with Vox would be signed, Legoland would be happy to provide GS with Theology free of charge, asking you only to agree to not attempt building the Sistine's Chapel (which we assume would be unlikely anyway, considering the comments on the lack of vital city infrastructure in your war torn country) and that GS does not trade Theology to any other team unless that team agrees to waive the Sistine's Chapel as well.

We believe that if every team sincerely wishing for peace considers some kind of an "incentive", peace may still be a viable option even for Gathering Storm.

May the peace rule over Estonia.

signed...

1) scrapped references to Voxes keeping their homeland, as that appears to be totally impossible for various reasons

2) intentionally rephrased the text so that GS would be likely to demand we harbour Voxes "if truly wishing for the peace"

[Sharpe]

I agree. GS has seemed to have escalated the war from "Vox must evacuate Estonia" to "Vox must be destroyed" through the discussions in the thread.

I also think that GS is clearly turning hostile towards us. It also appears that GoW is divided about intervening on Vox based on UnOrthodox's posting. And we all know about RP's wavering ...

Btw, what do you think about Arrian's proposal to chat between Lego and GS?

Edit: Based on Shiber's latest post, he is clearly crossing the line given his earlier behaviour...

[vondrack]

I think the chat is a very good idea. I will PM Arrian, proposing an UNOFFICIAL chat we could use to gauge their willingness to settle for some reasonable peace terms - and what is most important, getting that bloody no Sistine Chapel clause from them, since that's the only thing that matters for me...

[ZargonX]

I would hearby ask that all Lego members observe a self-imposed gag-order on posting in the Vox thread in the public forum. That situaiton needs to calm down so things can actually be dealt with.

[vondrack]

Agreed completely. We have succeeded to turn the public sabre-rattling and moralizing into talking business (I will post the chatlog after I wake up, too late now). We may, after all, get what we want. Let's try to make no silly mistake now.

[vondrack]

Here goes the log of our chat with GS last night (unedited - no time to tidy it up, sorry):

Session Start: Sat Jun 14 23:21:49 2003
Session Ident: #shibers-house-of-pleasure
* Now talking in #shibers-house-of-pleasure
Shiber: yo yo yo
* Shiber sets mode: +o vondrack
Shiber: it's the von
vondrack: ok, what pleasures exactly?
vondrack:
Shiber: What, getting to talk to me is not pleasurable enough?
vondrack: oops...
Shiber: OK, I'll give you some pleasures...
Shiber: :dirtiest-dance-ever:
Shiber: There. How was I?
vondrack: Awesome!
vondrack: I am still trying to get my mIRC back into order...
vondrack: most buttons danced away seeing your performance...
Shiber: lol
vondrack: who's going to attend?
Shiber: me and that invisible cat over there
Shiber: and hopefully at least one of my teammates can come on such a short notice
vondrack: ok, just gimme a shout when you want to start
Shiber: noone has even viewed the thread but m yet
Shiber: *me
vondrack: yeah... that was exactly my problem with PMing GS...
Shiber: anyway, lots of barbarians in your 'hood, i hear
Shiber: i heard that vox is moving in soon though
vondrack: yeah... we have been able to pull a great contract with them
vondrack: moving in?
Shiber: i've spoken with some members of vox, they talk like they've already settled an agreement with you
Shiber: not you in particular, your team
vondrack: yes, there were extensive discussions held
Shiber: and they resulted in...?
vondrack: nothing tangible yet
vondrack: but I will explain
Shiber: What does that mean?
Shiber: I mean, are they moving in or not?
Shiber: This kindof concerns GS too, I reckon
vondrack: I think that pretty much depends on what YOU do...
Shiber: Yes, but we've already made ourselves clear.
Shiber: And Beta has killed any remaining chances for peace with Vox still on the continent.
vondrack: yes, that part is clear
Shiber: Not really killed, more like tortured, raped, mutilated, pulled by the hair into an industrial meat tenderizer, melted, vaporized, loaded onto a rocket and blasted it off into the sun
Shiber: or something
vondrack: but I also read quite clearly that a major part of GS wants Voxes dead... so that's why I am saying it depends on you, too
Shiber: Even I'm not sure if I want to go for the Voxodus anymore, or if we'd rather destroy Vox and sink any fleeing galleys in order to eliminate the source of the backroom diplomacy epidemic that's killing the game
vondrack: wanna kill the source of the backroom diplomacy, Shiber?
Shiber: I'd love to, yes
vondrack: you better start building up militarily then...
Shiber: Please explain
vondrack: you would have a couple more teams to go
vondrack: GS & ND are the only teams not involved in this
vondrack: in diplomacy, I mean
Shiber: There are certain levels of backroom diplomacy that I'm willing to tolerate
Shiber: Vox has crossed my final red line
* vondrack sighs
Shiber: Constantly trying to stain our image, sending PMs full of lies to other teams behind our backs...
Shiber: I know what you're thinking, Vondrack. "There's so much he doesn't know about what goes on behind his team's back"
vondrack: and I was trying to point out that what you believe may not be what is actually true
Shiber: Or at least I think I know what you're thinking
vondrack: partially, yes
vondrack: I believe you are readin' too much evil into what Vox do
Shiber: We believe that Vox is coordinating public attacks behind our backs and soliciting responses from other teams, and we suspect that they have a puppetmaster
vondrack: or maybe I am simply well "processed" by their propaganda? )
vondrack: I do not believe there is any puppetmaster
vondrack: honestly
Shiber: vondrack, when attacks on your team's integrity, morality, character and agenda are being made constantly, in public and in private channels, you start to get a little pissed off
Shiber: Beta is surprised that his constant slander is seen as personal attacks
Shiber: But I'd love to see him in our shoes
Shiber: Anyway, this whole affair is REALLY getting all the fun out of the game
Shiber: for me, and for several of my friends
vondrack: don't take it that seriously... no offense meant, but you get heated up rather quickly
vondrack: Shiber, could you invite ZargonX?
vondrack: he just dropped in to our Lego room
Shiber: just did
vondrack: ok, thanks
Shiber: vondrack, this has gone on for about two months now
Shiber: but you say "rather quickly"
vondrack: I know - been watching it
vondrack: "rather quickly" as in "rather quickly every time something like this happens"
Shiber: vondrack, let me tell you something
Shiber: GS, as you know, is comprised mainly of strat forum guys
vondrack: sure, I know that
Shiber: Before the game began, the team has decided that as the so-called strat forum team, we must take a very strict code of honor and honesty
Shiber: Otherwise, if we win or at least get close to that position, others might say "oh, as if all of their strat forum expertise wasn't enough, they had to lie and cheat in the process to get to where they are"
Shiber: We are very very strict about honor and honesty. We never, ever, lie or break promises or treaties. We don't tell half truths, we don't bend truths...
Shiber: We have discussions revolving around "Would doing this be fair / honest?"-type questions in our private forum all the time
-apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited ZargonX into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
* ZargonX has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
Shiber: That is why when Beta claimed publicly that we were violating agreements, it was the beginning of the end
ZargonX: hello, Shiber!
Shiber: hi ZargonX!
Shiber: From there it went downhill
vondrack: Shiber, can you invite Sharpe, please?
Shiber: Every time Beta opens his mouth, more people in GS are turned in favor of elimination rather than peace
-apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited Sharpe into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
* Shiber sets mode: +o ZargonX
Shiber: Anyway, Vondrack, there's something that you wanted to say
Shiber: And it's 00:45AM local time, so I suggest that you start
vondrack: k
vondrack: so I take it we are not going to wait for anyone else, right?
* Sharpe has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
Sharpe: Hi!
Shiber: hello Sharpe
Shiber: enjoy all the pleasure that this house has to offer
Shiber: :dirtiest-dance-ever:
Shiber: How was that?
Sharpe: :sharpe pukes:
Sharpe: hehe
Shiber: Well done! You get op for that
* Shiber sets mode: +o Sharpe
vondrack: alright then, on the topic
Shiber: I mean, a special hat shaped like a @
vondrack: I know I want to go to bed as much as you do
vondrack: first, our reasons to wish for peace
vondrack: I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
vondrack: just that nobody noticed, it seems
-apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited nye_too into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
vondrack: ah, ok, I will hold on a sec
Sharpe: any other GSers able to join us?
Shiber: You want their Engineering
Shiber: NYE is coming
-apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited nye_too into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
Shiber: Or he should be
vondrack: I suspect he is doing the ISDG stuff
* nye_too has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
vondrack: hi, nye!
Shiber: YAAY!
Shiber:
nye_too: hello
Sharpe: nbarclay is also on poly now, with SirRalph, Aeson and Lawrence of Arabia
Shiber: vondrack was just about to spill all the beans on why Lego is so interested in Vox's continued existence
nye_too: shiber must have wanted to keep you all to himself
vondrack: are we waiting for anyone else then?
vondrack: LoL
Shiber: If we keep on waiting I'll fall asleep over the keyboard
vondrack: not really, he's been doing his best to bring more of you in here
vondrack: ok, I will go on then
Shiber: You'll know when this happens because you'll see a stream of characters
nye_too: please do
vondrack: for nye:
vondrack: vondrack: first, our reasons to wish for peace
vondrack: vondrack: I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
vondrack: vondrack: just that nobody noticed, it seems
vondrack: that's all I managed to say so far
vondrack: to quote myself:
vondrack: Wars do very little good to building generally... and to well planned building in particular.
-apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited SirRalph into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
vondrack: Jesus...
Shiber: lol
* SirRalph has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
SirRalph: hello
vondrack: hello, Sir Ralph!
nye_too: hi, sir ralph
SirRalph: hi everyone
vondrack: anyone else to come?
Shiber: Let's assume not
Shiber: vondrack, please continue
vondrack: ok
Shiber: For SirRalph:
vondrack: recap one more time
Shiber: vondrack: first, our reasons to wish for peace
Shiber: vondrack: I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
Shiber: vondrack: just that nobody noticed, it seems
Shiber: vondrack: Wars do very little good to building generally... and to well planned building in particular.
vondrack: right
vondrack: thanks
Shiber: There, I've said it. Feels good to get all that off my chest...
ZargonX: hey SirRalph
* Shiber sets mode: +oo nye_too SirRalph
* Shiber sets mode: +o SirRalph
vondrack: I thought I was pretty specific... I was talking about great leaders and wonders
nye_too: ahh. i see
vondrack: not that we would have ever planned to build SUn Tzu
vondrack: so that was no problem
Shiber: But all that stuff is mainly role play
vondrack: but there are important wonder builds we have ahead of us
vondrack: so ANY war is posing an ongoing risk for anyone trying to build wonder the hard way
Shiber: And... you don't want us getting any more leaders?
Shiber: Seriously, if you don't want us to build a certain wonder, negotiate a treaty.
SirRalph: I didn't even think of this stance, lol
vondrack: I will not pretend this is the only reason, but it is an important one
vondrack: let me go through all of that first, please
vondrack: it is a lot of things
nye_too: ok
Shiber: Well, you don't want people getting unplanned leaders and stealing wonders below your nose. So does everybody else.
vondrack: so, yes, this is one important aspect of why we would prefer the war was over quickly
Shiber: Don't be offended, I'm just trying to rush you because I estimate that I will fall asleep and my head would crash over the keyboard in roughly 4 minutes and 37 seconds
Shiber: vondrack, but this aspect is of no interest to us
vondrack: just as I anckowledged I understand your reasons to drive Voxes off Estonia
Shiber: On the other hand, it's a reason for us to continue the war
vondrack: then we have reasons to wish this war was over
nye_too: shiber, please let him speak
vondrack: right
nye_too: other reasons, vondrack?
vondrack: so it seems you would like to see something in exchange, right?
vondrack: yes, there are more reasons
vondrack: but they would not be worth the hassle of getting heavily involved
nye_too: please continue
vondrack: I believe we did tell DeepO
vondrack: that we have one problem here in Legoland
nye_too: deepO has not been around much. when did you message him?
vondrack: Shiber, can you reinvite Zargon, please?
SirRalph: what kind of problem?
vondrack: it was a looong time ago, nye
Sharpe: he also wonders how to get rid of ghosts
-apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited ZargonX2 into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
vondrack: the problem is that although we started on a decent piece of land
* ZargonX2 has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
ZargonX2: sorry, power outage...
ZargonX2: crazy storms
vondrack: we have only one luxury of our own
vondrack: dyes
Shiber: ZargonX, /msg nickserv ghost zargonx your-password
ZargonX2: thanks
* ZargonX has quit IRC (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by ZargonX2)) )
* ZargonX2 is now known as ZargonX
nye_too: i beleive i can say that gs is interested in trading luxuries.
SirRalph: I hope "crazy storms" wasn't meant to be an insult!
vondrack: so, as it seems, we are bound to be in for some serious happiness building
ZargonX:
Shiber: I took it as a compliment
vondrack: we consider one wonder quite important to us
vondrack: The Sistine's Chapel
Shiber: The Sistine
ZargonX: yes
Shiber: w00t
SirRalph: on chieftain, oh well
nye_too: that is an important one.
vondrack: so the idea of having a war anywhere in the world
vondrack: is not what we are thrilled about
nye_too: have you secured agreements with any other teams regarding it?
vondrack: working on that, nye
Shiber: Well, why haven't you tried to secure an agreement with us?
nye_too: he's here, shiber...
vondrack: hell, we are just trying to!
vondrack: let me finish that, please
vondrack: so:
Shiber: Yes, I mean through diplomatic channels, and earlier
vondrack: we did not think there was the right moment
vondrack: and now it seems it is 12:05
vondrack: anyway
SirRalph: it is, exactly
vondrack: in order to help solving the problem, we are ready to seriously consider
vondrack: giving you something to consider the peace option
vondrack: our proposal which was never sent due to the quick progress of the public debate
vondrack: making it constantly obsolete or not properly worded
vondrack: was something like this:
vondrack: if you let Voxes be (read: flee), we would give you Theology for free - naturally on condition you would waive Sistine's
vondrack: I know it is not much
vondrack: but then there is another thing
nye_too: go on
vondrack: I believe you do feel that your plan to finish Voxes off
vondrack: is not what other are ready to applaud to
vondrack: let's forget why
vondrack: it is a fact
vondrack: so, the other benefit you would get
vondrack: is that Voxes would be gone
vondrack: and our problem
vondrack: we actually have a piece of land here
vondrack: we could give them
vondrack: mostly mountains, no fresh water
vondrack: I would still rather start in their original location than on Legos Minor
vondrack: but... oh, well
nye_too: so you mean to see them flee?
vondrack: as if they had any chance to choose
vondrack: right - you would settle for peace and let them go
ZargonX: it is not our decision whether they flee or not; that falls to you
vondrack: we would allow them to settle on Legos Minor
vondrack: actually
nye_too: do you have their blessing for this?
vondrack: Legos Minor is quite similar to your continent in that
vondrack: it is connected to Legos Major with a single tile isthmus
vondrack: hell, I do not care if I have their blessing!
vondrack: they put us into a pretty precarious situation
vondrack: so they either accept or...
vondrack: and if you mean
Shiber: Or ask RP for land?
vondrack: whether we discussed this with them
vondrack: then yes, we did
SirRalph: I still don't understand, how you do benefit if they survive?
nye_too: ok. did they receive it well?
vondrack: we were trying to settle this mess for quite some time
vondrack: yes, more or less well
vondrack: not that they would be thrilled about the idea of having to leave their homeland
vondrack: but they seem to realize their odds
nye_too: do you and they have a plan for evacuation?
vondrack: nothing firm yet, but working on that
nye_too: any idea on timeline?
ZargonX: not as of yet
nye_too: hmmm
vondrack: Sir Ralph: we sort of gave them our word we would
vondrack: help them save their lives
vondrack: so we are now bound to keep that promise
SirRalph: but if we finish them, their demise cant be blamed on you, though
vondrack: this is not about making an alibi
vondrack: besides
ZargonX: that is true; however, if we don't even try to discuss options, that in itself is a failing
nye_too: well, if push came to shove, we could not stop anyone from gifting them a city.
SirRalph: Vox surviving is a risk for us even on another continent
vondrack: as I said, Voxes have been a good trading partner for us and we ourselves have no reason to want them dead
vondrack: it is dubious
vondrack: if they can ever become a trading partner worth anything again
vondrack: but anyway
vondrack: we have considered all pros and cons
vondrack: and decided it would probably be best for us if we tried to settle things this way

[vondrack]

Part II:

vondrack: now, is there anything to talk about or shall we simply pack our sacks and get out of the room?
nye_too: well...
vondrack: I mean - what is your stance toward this idea?
Shiber: So you ask that we at least allow Vox time for an orderly evacuation, so that they could save as much of their population as possible?
nye_too: it is something that bears serious consideration by all memebrs of gs.
ZargonX: of course
nye_too: can i recap?
ZargonX: we would not expect you to make this decision hastily
SirRalph: i'm not thrilled at all letting Vox leave. They can seriously screw us by denying to trade their free tech. If Lego would guarantee, that it will be traded to us for a fair price, I might change my mind
nye_too: we stop the fighting between vox and us
nye_too: i will wait
nye_too: sir ralph makes a good point
vondrack: precisely, I am saying whether you would like to be able to get rid of your problem without further fuelling the emotions that are so abundant in the public thread
vondrack: we have not even spoken about the free tech
nye_too: of course there would be concerns from our side of the table
vondrack: with Voxes
vondrack: ok, go ahead - your concerns
nye_too: well, i could not list them all now, we have just opened the can, so to speak
nye_too: to recap the basics...
nye_too: the fighting between vox and gs stops
nye_too: lego gives gs theology
nye_too: vox leaves Stormia
nye_too: that is the basics?
vondrack: you waive Sistine's
ZargonX: plus a no-Sistene clause
nye_too: ahh yes.
nye_too: ok. concerns, off the top of my head...
vondrack: yes, that's the basics, I believe
vondrack: ok
nye_too: 1 vox army. most of it disbands before any cease fire goes into effect.
nye_too: 2 timing. what do they need to build and how long do they need
nye_too: 3. verification. we would need unhindered access to our new lands to verify comliance
nye_too: *compliance
nye_too: those would be concerns off the top of my head.
nye_too: oh, i could add...
nye_too: 4 harbour. the vox harbour is sold before the cease fire goes into effect
nye_too: No Iron for Vox before they vacate.
nye_too: i am sure there would be others
vondrack: right... all of them involve Vox in the first place, so we naturally cannot say "Yes, sir!" on the spot
SirRalph: I stated my concern. 2 free techs to go. Note, that I would not claim them for free, but I don't want them denied or sold for a horrible price only.
vondrack: but I do not consider them
nye_too: of course
vondrack: inappropriate
nye_too: sir ralph's concern is legitimate as well. as i said, i am sure there may be others
-apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited alva_busy into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
vondrack: Sir Ralph, I believe the free techs would not be part of the deal
* alva_busy has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
alva_busy:
alva_busy: Hi y'all
nye_too: vondrack. to be realistic, the hawks are going to require much convincing
SirRalph: I'm sorry, but in this case I won't vote for your plan
vondrack: pleae, both of you: understand that there is a certain line we can go to
nye_too: i understand, vondrack
vondrack: this must be a deal even for us
vondrack: as it is, we are waiving part of the land we have considered "ours"
nye_too: but understand, you are asking people who have been gravely insulted to allow the offending party to escape
vondrack: please, nye, I have had enough of that in the public thread... let's speak business
nye_too: i would like to, vondrack
nye_too: but i am letting you know realisitcally, what the situation within gs is.
ZargonX: understood
ZargonX: I know there are strong feelings around this issue, and they will not be resolved simply
nye_too: yes, zargon. you are accurate
vondrack: if you believe feelings are stuff to be traded, then keep in mind the sentiment expressed by many in the public thread
SirRalph: I would also like to talk business. If Lego adds a guarantee, that the free techs will be traded to GS, if not by Vox, so by Lego itself (Note: traded, not gifted!), I rest my case and vote dove. If not, not.
vondrack: by agreeing to peace, you gain a lot in the "eyes of the world", to put it poetically
ZargonX: I can only speak for myself, and not my team, but I believe a deal could be reached
ZargonX: it would require discussion, of course, but that is for a future date
nye_too: and by finishing vox we could conceivably gain leo's and the sistine.
ZargonX: Again, speaking only for myself, I do consider GS an "enemy"
vondrack: ??????
vondrack: Zargon!
nye_too: typo, i suspect
SirRalph: interesting
ZargonX: do not!
ZargonX: sorry!
ZargonX: that was a typo
* vondrack sighs in relief
ZargonX: phew... now that's a serious diplomatic typo to make :P
vondrack: that would be quite a surprise...
ZargonX: allow me to restate:
ZargonX: I do not consider GS an enemy
SirRalph: granted
ZargonX: at the moment, there is a situation with differing viewpoints, but one that I feel can be worked through
vondrack: rereading what Sir Ralph said: I think trading the techs would not be a problem
vondrack: for some reason I assumed he was talking abour getting them for free - sorry
nye_too: understood.
vondrack: re: Sistine's and Leo's
ZargonX: excuse me, brb
vondrack: that assumes you would have Theology and Invention
nye_too: yes. it would.
vondrack: researching Thelogy would put you further behind
vondrack: since you would be wasting beakers on something
vondrack: others are going to get from us
vondrack: OTOH
nye_too: of course, what we are discussing are hypotheticals
vondrack: if you get Theo
vondrack: you can start on, say, Printing press
vondrack: and get back into the race
nye_too: that poses a problem as well.
vondrack: problem?
nye_too: we are under the impression that we have been the subject of an embargo.
nye_too: that embargo has damaged our position.
vondrack: as far as I know there was no embargo put in effect
vondrack: can speak for Lego only though
nye_too: i am sure that nathan will have some ideas on what would need to be done to address that
nye_too: it has been reported to us. we do not require confirmation or denial
vondrack: ok, let me rephrase: Legoland has never agreed to embargo you
vondrack: the fact we did not trade for Feudalism/Theology was that the deal was not fine
vondrack: we did not need Feu for quite some time
vondrack: and then we simply "got it"
SirRalph: Hmmm. Do we need Theology?
vondrack: sorry if this did harm to you, but there was no evil intention
nye_too: we will consider what you have said.
vondrack: not sure, Sir Ralph - you must know
nye_too: at this point, i am anticipating things that may be brought up.
vondrack: yes?
nye_too: that is all. i mentioned the embargo, bacause i am sure it will brought up.
vondrack: aha
vondrack: that's something I have really nothing to comment on
vondrack: as I said - we never joind any embargo against you
vondrack: and I believe I can even say
nye_too: yes. well. vox is the subject of the excercise.
nye_too: not just lego
vondrack: we have never heard of one being put in effect
vondrack: but then, even we may not know everything
nye_too: let's leave that alone. as i said, we do not need confirmation or denial
vondrack: alright
Shiber: So, to recap, what is Lego offering GS in exchange for allowing Vox to flee?
vondrack: nye have done a precise recap already
vondrack: 1) you get Theology
nye_too: with the addition of us renouncing sistine
vondrack: yes
vondrack: 2) you get rid of the Voxian PR-problem
vondrack: other issues would be brought up by you
Shiber: What are the chances of article 2's realization?
Shiber: I suspect that most teams were pro-peace because it weakens us
nye_too: slim to none, i'd say
Shiber: But in an evacuation agreement, we still get Vox's territory
nye_too: that may well pose a problem in it's own right
vondrack: heh, but insisted on "wishing peace"
vondrack: so you get the upper hand now
Shiber: Noone would show up to applaud any agreement we sign with Vox, I'm sure. Not even if it's the one that Beta proposed in his thread.
vondrack: guys, there is only so much we can do to help your PR-position
Sharpe: what status is the war at currently anyway?
nye_too: you mean the one that was discussed between beta and i a month ago, and that he did not propose until Inchon?
Shiber: Yes, lol
vondrack: sorry - I have no idea what you are now talking about
nye_too: the peace that beta proposed was discussed between he and i a month or more ago.
vondrack: wow, time is flying...
nye_too: vox sat on it and sat on it, as the tide turns
nye_too: then, once we have them by the ... they propose it even though we already had most all of hat was in it.
nye_too: i thought perhaps other teams would be interested in that
vondrack: yeah... I have always thought GS could use a PR-guy...
SirRalph: maybe
nye_too: actually, i think the game could use a lot less people speaking weasel words.
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: what do we do about Togas then?
nye_too: heh
Sharpe: another typo?
vondrack: LoL
nye_too: he is fine. i hold no grudge against him. however, some of the methods are bound to raise feelings
vondrack: my words
nye_too: how could they not?
vondrack: I actually often admire how he struggles with his very nature
vondrack: yeah, right...
nye_too: actually, you are not innacurate
vondrack: does that mean I hit the nail on the head?
nye_too: he is very intelligent, but that temper.
vondrack: right
alva_busy: sounds familiar
nye_too: hehe
SirRalph: I'm not very good at chit-chatting. Have we finished the "official" part of the meeting?
nye_too: i beleive so
vondrack: me too
vondrack: Sir Ralph - it can be learnt!
vondrack: I used to be like you, I guess...
vondrack: chit-chatting = waste of time
SirRalph: well, vondrack, I am an IRC veteran, but with the years I evaluate my spare time some higher
-apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited Aeson into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
SirRalph: thanks for the chat. good night (well, or evening for that matter)
vondrack: I believe I perfectly know what you are talking about
nye_too: g'night
vondrack: good night
alva_busy: night SR
Shiber: night everyone
nye_too: take care
Shiber: i'm off myself
SirRalph: bye
Shiber: it's terribly late
* SirRalph has quit IRC (Quit: warp 1.0: Nemo me impune lacessit )
vondrack: night, everybody!
alva_busy: see you Shiber
Shiber: see you everyone
ZargonX: 'night!
nye_too: g'night vondrack. it was a pleasure.
* Aeson has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
vondrack:
* Shiber has quit IRC (Quit: Good night )
vondrack: as usually, nye
ZargonX: Aeson arrives as the party ends
nye_too:
vondrack: hello, Aeson!
Aeson: seems to always be the case
Aeson: hello
vondrack: the guests are just leaving...
alva_busy: hey Aeson
nye_too: hail orange
Sharpe: we can summarize yet again I suppose
alva_busy: yep, knew HE was coming
nye_too: brb
Aeson: I can wait for the log, thanks for the offer though Sharpe
vondrack: mostly annoyed by the serious discussion degenerating into a mere chit-chat...
vondrack:
alva_busy: nothing new there then
Sharpe: lol, and how much percent is chit-chat in lego chat rooms?
Sharpe:
vondrack: is there any non-chit-chat there?
ZargonX: 85%
ZargonX: I did a calculation
vondrack: Aeson - will you ever consider rejoining the ISDG Team?
Sharpe: thought it was closer to 90% myself ...
alva_busy: say, I got a very short summary from Shiber, but I guess it wasn't complete. Was Engineering mentioned at any time?
vondrack: Engineering?
vondrack: nope
alva_busy: ah, ok
Sharpe: actually what is GS researching ATM?
alva_busy: sorry, my mistake
Aeson: I don't think I'll be rejoining the ISDG
alva_busy: hum, what has NEY or SR told you???
alva_busy:
vondrack:
vondrack: sorry to hear that
Aeson: Not like there'd be anything left to do by the time I could... you guys should have won by then right?
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: I believe there will always be something left
ZargonX: plenty going on right now...
Aeson: It woudl be just like this chat... I join and everyone leaves... haha
nye_too: hehe
vondrack: LoL
ZargonX: heh, that would solve some of our issues if everyone else left
vondrack: LoL!
alva_busy: hey, I've been banned
nye_too: what?
ZargonX: from what?
Aeson: from where?
alva_busy: upload rule
vondrack: actually, Aeson, it's that the Consuls (whoever is that) need more people like you
alva_busy: not uploading files
alva_busy: related to the games site covers
nye_too: what did you upload?
vondrack: and they need some other better leave
vondrack: *others
alva_busy: Apparantly Dan has banned many people
nye_too: what did he ban you for?
Aeson: I honestly don't think it would be right for me to join again. I'm now officially an admin over at CFC so am privy to too many details of the goings on in their forums whether I like it or not.
vondrack: aha, I see
nye_too: ahh. too bad, Aeson
alva_busy: pff, Iil go check what I uploaded
nye_too: you are missed already
alva_busy: I can still post at the private forums though, another feature
nye_too: alva, pm me the details if you would.
alva_busy: ok
nye_too: i am off very soon. are we done?
alva_busy: I'll send you the mail I got
nye_too: ok
nye_too: bye everyone. i fget to go home now.
Sharpe: bye
* nye_too has left #shibers-house-of-pleasure
vondrack: bye
vondrack: oops, missed it
Aeson: I'll be going now too. Hopefully the next one I can show up much later and GS and Lego can have a more extended conversation.
Aeson: bye
* Aeson has quit IRC (Quit: )
Sharpe: guess I had better go too. Cya
* Sharpe has left #shibers-house-of-pleasure
* ZargonX has quit IRC (Quit: )
vondrack: I am going, too
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Sun Jun 15 01:21:56 2003

Just to make sure we do not confuse ourselves: whatever I said and however I presented it, we have two primary goals:

1) Get Voxes safely to Legos Minor to fill the vacuum there (before someone else does)
2) Get the no-Sistine clause

I did my best to make GS realize we are offering them a good deal. Something to gain. And I hope they'll realize that we can get most of what we ask from them even if they refuse (we can hop Voxes here even if GS rejects the plan & we can build Sistine's without them "letting" us, too - their chances of getting Theology AND a great leader to build it instantly are quite close to zero - so they better consider that).

[vondrack]

Just received this from DeepO:

Vondrack,
redstar1,
ZargonX,
Arrian,

Hello everyone, I hope everything is fine in Legoland. It has been a while since you last received a message from me, and I regret I wasn't able to join the last couple of chats (I've read the logs, of course). But, this is about to change back I hope, I enjoyed the (kind of) regular chats we had before the Voxian war started, and would like to get into that habit again.

There are a couple of points I'd like to address:

As it became clear I was not able to spend enough time on our game anymore, and lack of communication was certainly not doing GS any good on the diplomatic front, reinforcement to the Lego ambassador team was found. Arrian will be our vice-ambassador, I'm sure you can contact him with any worries in case I proof to be unavailable. Of course, contact with other members remains possible (e.g. nye), but this should make our relation more fluent... we still consider Lego as one of the main parties we want to trade with.

Further, the silence of the past months was intentional, and although I posted this before I shut up, I hope you also see this in light of our war, and do not see it as a insult of any kind to you. As a team policy, it was decided the moment Vox attacked us that we would stop communicating with any other team unless we really had something to sell / needed to get. In hindsight, that was not the best decision (seeing our current isolation), and perhaps it would have been better if I explained our changed policy to you better. My apologies for that.

That said, we would love to get the regular chats going again, like we had before all of this started. I couldn't make it yesterday (we had them at Sundays around 21 GMT, IIRC), but if any of you can find some time tonight, I would certainly like to join for some talk. We still have a couple of things to discuss... I hope that my schedule will allow me to keep this up, but otherwise Arrian should be available around the same time, if he ever succeeds in installing mIRC

Then, onto business. It looks like we are going to ratify the Voxodus plan, and I wonder how far you're up to date on the progress here. I'd also like to chat to see your view on this... I appreciate the mediator role Vondrack played in this war, however quite a number of questions remain unanswered. If interested, I would also like to give you more insight in our PoV, even if at the moment it seems to be rather calm in our forum.

You have already heared this in chat, but to make things a bit more official: We'd like to offer you our WM. I know you are not going to trade your WM for it, however seeing that for us the need for secrecy has dropped, we want to open up our map. Do you have anything you want to offer in return?

And lastly (note this has not been confirmed, nor tested!): We know you have a (urgent) need for luxuries. There may be a possibility for us to trade these to you... you know we've build the lighthouse, and AFAIK that makes trades over sea tiles possible, even before Astronomy. But, there have to be a couple of other things present: a harbor on both sides, a visible trade route, etc. We're currently building on harbors, so in case you would agree to purchase our WM, and have a visible harbor on your own, we may be able to trade luxuries to you (we have 2 of them). Again, this is not confirmed, I asked for confirmation a couple of times in our forum, but nobody seems to know the definate answer to this. And currently, very few people seem to have time to test this. So... you might want to find out for yourselves, I'm sorry I can't do more then offer the possibility.

If you could get back to me with possible chat times, it would be great.

Kind regards,
DeepO

I am going to briefly answer his message, expressing my readiness to chat - nothing official or binding, but I will be sure to push the Theo+noSistine deal. Plus, I'll try to get as much info as possible... it's been long time since I had "fun" chatting with DeepO...

[vondrack]

OK, here is the chatlog, Part I:

Session Start: Mon Jun 23 22:49:45 2003
Session Ident: #boemboem
* Now talking in #boemboem

snip – usual opening pleasantries here

DeepO: ok, let's start then
vondrack: k
DeepO: first of all, I've got a little agenda
DeepO: 1. Vox
DeepO: 2. WM
DeepO: 3. possible lux trade
DeepO: anything else?
vondrack: nothing I can think of
DeepO: so 1.
DeepO: we have sent, about 15 minutes ago, our ratified proposal
DeepO: so it seems you will be enjoying new neighbours
vondrack: yep, read about it in the public forum
vondrack:
DeepO: I hope you will like that
DeepO: public forum? damn, I'm not up to date
vondrack: yes, it is the solution we have been preferring for some time
DeepO: well, anyway, I was thinking on what you said in the previous chat
vondrack: yes?
DeepO: that you would agree to give us Theo
DeepO: with a no-wonder clause
DeepO: do you still feel like that?
vondrack: yes, of course
DeepO: (we've been assuming it would go through, however no offocial communication has been sent)
DeepO: care to put this in a PM after the chat?
vondrack: no problem, will send it
DeepO: it would make my life as ambassador a lot easier
DeepO: Thanks a lot!
DeepO: so... coiuld I ask you what your intentions are with them?
DeepO: I mean, do you envision them as game-long partners?
vondrack: with the peace treaty signed, the whole Theo "deal" will be very easy to formulate
vondrack: re: Vox
vondrack: yes, in a way
vondrack: let me tell you something about their "new home"
DeepO: k
vondrack: Legos Minor - that is where they will end up
vondrack: is a mountainous peninsula
vondrack: North of our "mainland" (Legos Major)
vondrack: connected with a single-tile isthmus
DeepO: I know... w9ithout water
DeepO: better protect it
vondrack: yes - I remember now, I told you already
DeepO: np
DeepO: I just reread the log ...
DeepO: the thing is, we wonder in which sense they will be useful for you
vondrack: so - with the terrain there, they will not really be able to become a military power to be considered
vondrack: ever
vondrack: well
DeepO: we kind of suspect you're afraid to be left out on Bob
DeepO: in which case, a partner could be very good
vondrack: not sure how much I am allowed to disclose, but let me put it this way:
vondrack: we had several reasons to prefer that "peace" and to not mind Voxes "hopping" to Legos Minor
vondrack: first: the problem with Great Leaders
vondrack: second: the fact that you and them were wasting resources
vondrack: actually making Bobians stronger
DeepO: we certainly were
vondrack: Bobians (GoW & ND) are now getting close to their "peak times"
vondrack: so, we were not that excited about the whole thing
vondrack: honestly
DeepO: I can imagine
DeepO: but still, it seems quite a move
DeepO: even for peacelovers
vondrack: we did not really mind you having this small "problem" with Voxes
vondrack: but it got too far
DeepO: bah, np
DeepO: we lost considerably in this war
DeepO: but as there was no way to avoid it
vondrack: then - and I hope I am not going too far disclosing this
DeepO: and Vox did not realize how close to extinction it was (and thus did not settle for peace when we first proposed them
DeepO: we had little option left
DeepO: please tell...
vondrack: we sort of hope that Voxes will become our "guarantee" or "ally" against possible tech embargoes from Bobians
vondrack: having someone always trading with you
DeepO: it could backfire though
DeepO: which is what we find strange
vondrack: makes it more difficult for other to block your reserach by not trading key techs
DeepO: I mean, we certainly can see Bob embargoing us
vondrack: sure it can backfire
vondrack: hell, what can't?
DeepO: true
DeepO: but the thing is, you have kind of a guarantee
vondrack: hopefully
DeepO: however, Bob will not think of this lightly
DeepO: and, I'm sure it is all part of the diplo game
vondrack: we have sent our own treaty draft to Voxes today, outlining the future coexistence of our two teams
DeepO: but there has been a lot more talk lately about Lego being the ones to watch
DeepO: ah, ok
DeepO: please discuss how much you can disclose of that to us
DeepO: we hold no ill feelings towards Vox
vondrack: there is not much into it (the draft), mostly just the research cooperation
DeepO: and would certainly prefer to trade with them in the future
DeepO: and, if I may say so, we trust you more then them
DeepO: for the moment at least
vondrack: the rest is just technical aspects, like gifting them a city on Legos Minor now etc.
DeepO: ok
DeepO: as long as you don't start embargoing us, I'm sure we all can get along fine
vondrack: no intentions to embargo you
DeepO: maybe it's time to get onto point 2.
DeepO: ah, and thanks on the intentions
vondrack: and frankly - we will push Voxes to be "nice guys", too
DeepO: I don't think it will come to that
DeepO: please do
vondrack: since otherwise, they will become more of a liability than an asset to us
DeepO: well, for the moment, we want Vox to grow again
DeepO: very true
vondrack: us, too
vondrack: so we are going to help them out in the beginning
vondrack: starting with that city now
DeepO: which is why it would probably be the best idea if we resettle them (with planning)
DeepO: how many cities do you see them get, in the next 20 turns?
DeepO: I mean, we know they technically could grow to 6 or 7
DeepO: buut don't know if any arrangements were made
vondrack: so far, we have agreed on gifting them their new capital
vondrack: and I believe
vondrack: they are sending some settlers in galleys
DeepO: nah, not if we can help it
vondrack: that should arrive in ~16 turns or so
DeepO: they don't need any galleys at all
DeepO: in case you cooperate
vondrack: ?
DeepO: and a lot will depend on the real situation
DeepO: well, we can starve / disband all their cities to size 1
DeepO: and if, at that moment, their new captial is size 2
DeepO: it should be no problem for them to move all their forces into their last city
DeepO: and gift it to us
DeepO: in which case all units get teleported to their only remaining city
vondrack: ah, that's smart
DeepO: (correction: they should disband their last city)
vondrack: should be doable, I believe
DeepO: bah, we've been thining on this for a while now
DeepO: it certainly would be doable
DeepO: we've got a turn by turn plan ready
DeepO: (courtesy of Aeson, our master planner)
vondrack: well, their new capital will be founded
Aeson: ack... not a solid turn by turn plan, as we don't know the exact situation in the cities
DeepO: so that's not the problem, but it would mean a considerable force next to your border very soon
DeepO: and the new capital needs to grow to size 2 at least
vondrack: that's not a problem
vondrack: just a sec
DeepO: k
vondrack: if this turn is Turn T
vondrack: then on Turn T+5 or T+6 (depends on the location they choose)
vondrack: the capital will be founded
vondrack: now the good news
vondrack: we are bringing in a worker along
DeepO: we were hoping for this... that you already had a settler kind of in place. Plus the worker is superb!
vondrack: and will be joining him to the city immediately
DeepO: great
vondrack: it was originally meant to allow a spear poprush
vondrack: but I can see
vondrack: we have a different way now
DeepO: we should definately coordinate our plans... Aeson is going to have fun the following days
vondrack: the spear poprush was necessary (LOTS of barbs there - almost impossible to protect a garrisonless city from outside)
DeepO: aha... so the turn the city gets gifted, it should become the capital
DeepO: that's going to be tricky to perform
vondrack: question: how fast do you think the Voxians can be ready for the Big Hop?
DeepO: Aeson?
vondrack: we can delay its foundation
Aeson: If I might mention something, Vox seems far too infatuated with takign their troops with them. Coming from us it sounds bad, but it really would be in their best interests long term (20 turns from now and till the end of the game) for them to mostly diband their units to build more Settlers
DeepO: true
vondrack: agreed
Aeson: If Lego could convince Vox that a smaller army will cost less to support and allow faster growth, it would help things greatly
Aeson: Otherwise Vox is going to be running a 20gpt deficit for a while
DeepO: yeah...
Aeson: Vox's main stack is 5 turns from Dissidentville
DeepO: and we're not going to give them cash
Aeson: they are going to use Dissidentvile to jump them back to the core
vondrack: right
* redstar1 has joined #boemboem
DeepO: well, they can do it partly by boat
vondrack: interesting concept, this jumping...
DeepO: hi redstar1!
Aeson: The first round of pop liquidation should happen abou the same time
Aeson: then 5 more turns or so to get the rest liquidated
redstar1: hi guys
DeepO: I agree
DeepO: but most definately they need some guidance here
Aeson: we need 3 turns to guarantee the teleportation to work
DeepO: and it could mean that not all of their pop gets transferred
Aeson: so it would happen in 13 turns at the earliest I think
DeepO: okay, let's keep that as an estimate for now
DeepO: Von, are you protecting that settler well enough?
DeepO: I mean, could you delay up until then without risk?
Aeson: hello redstar1
vondrack: sword on mountains escort
* DeepO sets mode: +o redstar1
vondrack: we could delay, but I do not think it would be necessary
DeepO: okay... those should hold
DeepO: well, settling not
DeepO: but gifting perhaps
DeepO: and, in case you could get it to size 3...
DeepO: it makes life a lot easier
vondrack: we need to get rid of that city ASAP (messes with our corruption levels and planned builds)
vondrack: BUT
Aeson: we could then shave another turn off if it's size 3, as the palace jump would be safer
vondrack: if we found it on T+5, which I believe will be the case
vondrack: then T+5+10, it will be pop 2 again
vondrack: that should be ok, right?
DeepO: ergh one sec
DeepO: do you mean T+10
DeepO: or T+15?
vondrack: (T+5) to found the city, +10 to grow +1 pop
DeepO: thought so
Aeson: we can work with that... to get the palace there will require a bit more work and an extra turn though
vondrack: the worker will be transformed in to the spear, that's a must
DeepO: corruption levels: isn't it as far from your core as possible?
DeepO: in which case corruption will be high, but doesn't affect your other cities, no?
vondrack: not really... not far enough, heh
Aeson: Does Vox have any gold? we only got 4g from Elipolis
vondrack: no idea
Aeson: they could probably just allow their city to be sacked over and over...
Aeson: if you keep the Worker
DeepO: not as long as it is size 2...
Aeson: it wouldn't need to be size 3
vondrack: yep - losing pop would be a real danger
Aeson: or 2
vondrack: barbs can kill pop, right?
Aeson: and they'd teleport in before they grew to size 2 naturally
DeepO: I know... if it's the only city left, it will be the capital no matter what
DeepO: barbs can kill pop, yes
DeepO: I'm not very sure on the telportation if the capital gets disbanded, though
DeepO: we should test this...
DeepO: and we definately need to chat with Vox on this
Aeson: It's not part of the plan anyways
DeepO: I know...
DeepO: just realized that too
DeepO: well... do we need more Lego input here?
DeepO: we definately keep you informed
Aeson: anyways, sorry for the tangent... back to business?
DeepO: maybe best
vondrack: sure, np
DeepO: point 2. WM.
DeepO: we want to start to disclose our map
DeepO: certainly before someone else is charting our territory, and selling it instead of us
DeepO: we're not doing that well economically, after the war
DeepO: so... would Lego be interested in this?
vondrack: hmmm
DeepO: and if so, what would you care to offer us?
vondrack: honestly, we may be not hit by a war
DeepO: ? sorry, care to explain?
vondrack: but we are a bit low on cash, too, considering two goldrushes we need to do
vondrack: so, gold is hardly what we would be eager to offer
vondrack: as for techs
vondrack: you will get Theo for the peace
vondrack: and we do not have anything else yet
DeepO: well... let me explain one thing: we want to get little out of each civ
vondrack: Edu has been slowed down by the gov switch a bit
DeepO: if that means we don't face one civ profiting from our WM
vondrack: yeah, I understand... do you have any idea about how big that bit should be in our case?
DeepO: let's rest this for a moment
vondrack: I mean
vondrack: I would be happy to leave that for future
vondrack: and promise
vondrack: we will not try to get your WM
DeepO: well... we have a under limit
vondrack: from someone you trade it to
DeepO: which I will not disclose
vondrack: sure
DeepO: but let's say that 50 gold you certainly cover our expenses
DeepO: *would instead of you
DeepO: the thing is, it is closely connected to point 3
DeepO: if it would be possible to trade
DeepO: and you're interested in extra lux
DeepO: you need our map
DeepO: otherwise you won't see any of our harbor cities for a while
DeepO: I think
DeepO: (not sure on which will get build where, as it changes every few turns)
vondrack: let me explain one thing here, please
DeepO: sure
vondrack: re: luxuries
vondrack: while it is very true that we see this as a big problem in the long term view
vondrack: our near future plans were put together on assumption we will have no more than 1 lux
DeepO: okay
vondrack: so at this very moment, an extra lux might be nice, but is not a matter of "survival"
DeepO: 2 extra lux should mean something for you... even in the long term
vondrack: I will take this 50 gold idea to my team and see
DeepO: buut it might requirie adjusting your plans, I agree
Aeson: I think that the Lighthouse doesn't allow trade over sea tiles anyways, so it would be a moot point
vondrack: Legos are curious beings, after all...
DeepO: fine, thanks!
vondrack:
DeepO: Aeson are you sure?
Aeson: but Astronomy is getting near
Aeson: almost certain
DeepO: damn
DeepO: too bad
DeepO: I thought I saw it happening in one of my games
DeepO: which is why I brought it up
vondrack: actually - I believe that we shall have Astronomy within a reasonable timeframe
DeepO: so you're definately going for edu next?
vondrack: yes
DeepO: maybe we could split research paths?
vondrack: that would be wise, no doubt
DeepO: currently, we're waiting on what shows up next...
DeepO: but if you have any wishes, we might incorprate it better
Aeson: what would your eta on Edu be? we want to get it asap
DeepO: it will also depend on long term plans for Bob, of course
vondrack: considering what I know ATM, Printing Press looks most viable for you, I believe
DeepO: Ah, yes... we may be faster
vondrack: since you can start with it
vondrack: right after getting Theo from us
Aeson: no real reason to research PP though, gold would be more useful to be honest
DeepO: thanks, but I'm not sure that is really in our interest...
DeepO: as Aeson said
vondrack: yes, that's something I have no idea about - your gold situation
vondrack: and such
vondrack: I was speaking stricly in terms
DeepO: well... for the moment it's okay, but we have a lot of military to pay for
vondrack: of knowing who is researching or planning to research what
vondrack: understood
DeepO: and quite a number of building rushes we would like to, but can't afford
DeepO: yes, but we appreciate your views on this
DeepO: (I mean who is going for what)
DeepO: it could be an idea that we go for edu, simply to be faster...
DeepO: not that we have loads of libraries
DeepO: but they are a priority

[vondrack]

Part II:

DeepO: but a lot depend on your GA, of course
DeepO: are you planning on having one soon
DeepO: either by attacking a Voxian warrior, or building the right wonders?
vondrack: no plans ATM, so I would say we do not
DeepO: (If you don't mind me asking)
vondrack: if soon is under 20-30 turns
DeepO: well... yes
vondrack: this may change, but I somehow doubt it would
DeepO: It was one of the possible reasons you want Vox close by
DeepO: well.. at least one of the reasons we saw
vondrack: the sacrificed warrior?
DeepO: yep
DeepO: we wouldn't do it
DeepO: but other teams don't have our honor code
DeepO: (no offense, of course)
vondrack: well, yes, there is a clause like that in the treaty draft... but I would feel pretty much like you - it's a bit cheesy
vondrack: clause = to keep a warrior in reserve
DeepO: indeed...
vondrack: I believe we will try to use a wonder trigger
vondrack: but as I said - that was honest - no plans ATM
DeepO: are there definate plans there which you will definately need?
vondrack: which wonders, you mean?
DeepO: Oh, and I believe you on the plans... I'm trying to grasp the situation
DeepO: yeah
DeepO: because we got offers in the very beginning of the game from several teams
DeepO: to agree not to build a wonder
DeepO: you were one of those teams, I believe
DeepO: we never agreed to any of them
DeepO: Sistine will be the first...
vondrack: no, I do not think so - the Sistine is the first time we are trying to secure a wonder in this way
vondrack: partially because knowing how close Pyramids were
DeepO: very
Aeson: I'm pretty sure it was RP you are thinking about DeepO
DeepO: about 25 shields, I believe
DeepO: ah, sorry
DeepO: I thought there were more
vondrack: yes, RPers did contact us regarding wonders before
vondrack: but no deal was ever made
DeepO: but it all happened a long time ago, and it's easy to get confused if you're 2 ambassadors at once
vondrack:
DeepO: okay... just to let you know I don't think we'll do it easily again
vondrack: understood
DeepO: I mean... it costs us in planning... and extra constraints we don't need
DeepO: it's hard enough as it is
vondrack: errr... it helps planning, too, in a way...
vondrack: but I know what you have in mind
DeepO: not if you don't have agreements with everyone
vondrack: yes, that's true
vondrack: needs a lot of diplo stuff to pull such a thing
DeepO: and we kind of established our skills there
vondrack: we are still not done with Sistine, even if you agree to the deal
vondrack: but we keep trying
vondrack: LoL
* Aeson chuckles
DeepO:
vondrack: yes
DeepO: well... you have one less competitor for Sistine
vondrack: anyway - I do not see us trying to pull another wonder deal like this any time soon again
DeepO: so... to get back on track: you're not really interested in lux before Astronomy
DeepO: so we don't need to test it
vondrack: perhaps in a lux for lux trade
DeepO: (and I learned one thing: to follow Aeson's hunches)
vondrack: but not in lux for gold
DeepO: ah, but that was our intention
DeepO: you're not the only one who want luxes
vondrack: I can imagine that
DeepO: even if we most likely will find enough teams willing to trade on Bob
DeepO: but that in itself is tricky
DeepO: as every lux deal is an implicit NAP
vondrack: yeah
DeepO: and we really would prefer to keep to our own for now
DeepO: and not get involved into whatever Bob is cooking up the following 20 turns
DeepO: which we have no idea about... they're all telling us different things
vondrack: though, there is something... have you noticed how much stronger on the powergraph GoW & ND got in the last few turns?
DeepO: yes... and you in score
vondrack: us in score?
vondrack: I believe you maintain the 8-9 point lead
vondrack: all the time
DeepO: one sec, checking
DeepO: well, we may be one turn ahead of you
DeepO: (don't know for usre)
vondrack: aha, yes
DeepO: but you jumped in score last turn
vondrack: did we?
vondrack: good!
DeepO: meaning another city, border increase, or most likely a combination of those
vondrack: border increase, actually
DeepO: as it was a kind of big jump
vondrack: two or three temples
DeepO: thought so... it was large
DeepO: well... with Vox's land going to us, we would have surpassed that easily
vondrack: you can judge from the cultural graph, too - we are growing there, too
DeepO: I'm actually glad we're not alone in becoming more powerful
vondrack: oh, please, do surpass us!
DeepO: sorry, I don't have access to that one
vondrack: we are quite happy to be #2
DeepO: nah... thank you
vondrack: acces to what?
DeepO: culture graph
DeepO: I don't have the save
vondrack: ah
vondrack: ok
DeepO: and culture does not get send in screenie everytime
vondrack: I see
Aeson: they are taking off quite a bit in that regard
DeepO: already the mails are kind of large (1 MB)
DeepO: it is as I said in our last chat: Vox forced us to become the monster, while the pyramids will grow you into one
vondrack: yeah... if only church would be able to run those temples without the need for the gold...
DeepO: there is little that can be done about that
vondrack: that was re: Aeson's line
Aeson: So are you going for Cathedrals in most cities then? To take advantage of Sistene?
vondrack: sooner or later, yes - but the thing is that most of our cities are not yet up to builds like cathedrals
vondrack: only the very core
vondrack: Sistine is a long-term asset in our eyes
* Aeson nods
DeepO: before unis?
vondrack: will probably depend on whether there are libs in the respective cities
vondrack: sometimes yes, sometimes not
DeepO: a lot depends on where you see yourself in terms of research
DeepO: if you want to grow the top researcher or not
DeepO: (after us, of course )
vondrack: LoL
Aeson: If GS could get to Education quickly, would it be enough to get you interested in taking Invention instead?
vondrack: nope, sorry
DeepO: no trust?
vondrack: we have already invested into researching Edu
vondrack: trust is no problem
DeepO: ?
DeepO: you don't have Theo already have you?
Aeson: You have Theology now then?
vondrack: I mean - we are already researching it
vondrack: sure
DeepO: otherwise our analysists are not up to date
DeepO: damn...
vondrack: we do have Theo
DeepO: that's news not everybody is going to want to hear
vondrack: and will be sending it to you right after the deal gets signed
Aeson: what's your eta on Edu?
vondrack: which may be even this very turn, I believe (Theo to you)
vondrack: ETA on Edu?
vondrack: let me check
Aeson: thats nice
DeepO: Theo would be very nice
DeepO: not that we could use it immediately, but it means we need to discussing what to researhc next very soon
vondrack: hmmm... the earliest ETA seems to be 6-7 turns, but I am not sure that will be the case - as I said, we need some extra gold for important pre-wonder rushes
vondrack: and we may knock the research slider down a bit
DeepO: I'm not sure we can match that...
DeepO: well... nm... we don't want to go for edu if you're faster anyway
vondrack: yep, understood
Aeson: I agree... I think we'd be at least a few turns slower
DeepO: are there any techs you already have deals for, and would not consider getting from us?
vondrack: yes - Engineering and Chivalry
vondrack: that's why I mentioned PP
DeepO: as printing press doesn't really suit us, I think
vondrack: sure, understood
DeepO: yeah... well.. we might go for invention first
vondrack: that would be a good idea
DeepO: but that requires Engineering.
vondrack: no deal for Invention yet
DeepO: hmmm... will have to think about that..
vondrack: ND is doing Engineering
DeepO: yeah, but they're not the only ones
DeepO: or at least not the only source
vondrack: right, Voxes, too
vondrack: but they are slow
vondrack: 40-turn research, I assume
DeepO: yeah, sure
DeepO: we may even be able to trade it to you before that time
vondrack: so - Invention would sound good to us, yes
vondrack: hehe
DeepO: maybe we can help each other?
DeepO: I'm not sure if this would be a good idea diplomatically
vondrack: as we do not plan to go for Invention, we can wait few more turns if it saves us gold or something
DeepO: but we could split costs: you research, we go for gold
DeepO: and combine at the end
DeepO: we're all the time trying to not get into the same trouble as with Feud
Aeson: since we can't start Invention for what... 11 more turns is Vox's ETA?
DeepO: as it cost us dearly
vondrack: not sure if I am understanding this right - are we talking about Edu or Invention now?
DeepO: Edu
DeepO: Invention is something else
DeepO: in that we need a prereq
DeepO: and can't start right now
vondrack: ah... and ND is not an option?
DeepO: well... who would pay, if he can get things for free?
Aeson: their ETA is roughly the same I think
vondrack: true
DeepO: yeah, saving for upgrades
vondrack: they must be after something
vondrack: made quite some efforts to ensure our neutrality
DeepO: which is something also a bit strange, it doesn't look to me like ND, or GoW has big cash reserves
DeepO: well... they were trying here too
vondrack: were they?
DeepO: but as I explained: we want to remain neutral
DeepO: so we won't sign NAPs with Bobians soon
Aeson: So if you need cash to research Edu fast, it might be in both our best interests if GS supplies the cash so you can research faster.
vondrack: not sure about this - negotiating anything in this regard would most probably exceed whatever mandate I have
DeepO: well.. ours too
Aeson: ours too
vondrack: but I can sure bring that up in the forum
vondrack:
DeepO: but if it means we can have some discussion about it soon, we might get something useful out of this
DeepO: if we don't suggest it, or if you outright refuse
DeepO: we don't need to bother to ask
DeepO: and GS needs time to come to decisions
vondrack: yup - just BTW, what would you consider as your next tech after acquiring Edu?
DeepO: as we truely are democratic
vondrack: that may be important
DeepO: invention, perhaps
Aeson: Banking or Astronomy
DeepO: ergh... correct that, banking
Aeson: and now you see how GS works... we all have different ideas
DeepO: as astronomy most likely is for you
vondrack: LoL
DeepO: lol
Aeson: we haven't had a good thread on this yet
DeepO: too busy
vondrack: yes - you are the Many Voices, they are The One Voice...
Aeson: even edu/invention hasn't been discussed
DeepO: no, but this chat surely could provide a start
DeepO: in case you are (remotely) interested in getting something like this going
vondrack: alright - I believe there is no reason to expect that a deal on Edu would be outright rejected
vondrack: I will post about it and see what the response is
DeepO: with one major point: total secrecy
vondrack: sure
DeepO: we definately don't need to let Bob think we're forming a 3-way partnership here
DeepO: (Lego_Vox_GS)
vondrack: right
DeepO: even if there is no real partnership, some little word can be enough to let them see past there differences
DeepO: and go do some invading
DeepO: not that they won't be welcome here
vondrack: haven't had fighting enough?
DeepO: nah.. 2 turns of peace, and already we're getting bored
vondrack: there is no more Legos Something for another half-dead nation...
DeepO:
vondrack:
DeepO: we're definately not going to turn Vox into a reservation
DeepO: the next one on the brink of dying, can die...
vondrack: ?
DeepO: I mean former Vox country
vondrack: ah, ok
vondrack: I get it now
DeepO: well... anything else?
Aeson: Might be all that some of it is useful for though..
DeepO: I think we've got a lot to discuss back home...
vondrack: yep
vondrack: agreed
DeepO: yeah, true
vondrack: so, summary:
vondrack: 1) you work on your Vox hop plan and keep us posted
vondrack: 2) we continue moving our settler+worker combo to the site of the new Voxian capital
vondrack: 3) I PM you the Theo+no Sistene draft right after this chat ends
vondrack: (if you can get a signed version back to me before we play our turn, you can have Theo on your next turn)
DeepO: (should be possible, it was already agreed on)
vondrack: 4) I post your offer on WM for ~50 gold in our forum
vondrack: 5) I post about the possible Edu for gold deal
vondrack: anything else?
vondrack: 6) total secrecy
DeepO: yeah... especially #6
DeepO: we're getting a bit paranoid on thisd
DeepO: further I agree...
DeepO: maybe add 7) that GS needs to seriously think on what to research next
DeepO: (including after edu)
DeepO: Aeson, anything else?
vondrack: that is a good idea, yes - I guess that might affect our decision regarding the Edu deal
DeepO: I can imagine
vondrack: we would not want to give you a tech that would help you to become our main research competitor, that's obvious
DeepO: but as long as we know what paths are open, we can anticipate
vondrack: in "our" branch, I mean
DeepO: sure, np
vondrack: generally, that cannot be avoided
DeepO: I prefer to have an open partner
vondrack: likewise
DeepO: instead of a direct competitor
vondrack:
vondrack: good
DeepO: ah, one point left
vondrack: yes?
DeepO: I posted you that as of now, Arrian is vice ambassador
vondrack: ok, fine
DeepO: well... it seems we also have a vice-vice ambassador: nye
vondrack:
vondrack: now, that's smart
DeepO: so, in case you can't reach us, you know who to turn too
vondrack: yup
vondrack: it's no secret we get along with nye very well, is it?
DeepO: no... but it is also needed
DeepO: you guys meet each other much more naturally
DeepO: whereas each time I want to chat on 'poly, I spend half an hour to get in
vondrack: yes, that's because of our common ISDG experience... we learnt to "feel" each other
DeepO: so.. I think this is about it from my side
DeepO: it's been great chatting with you
vondrack: my pleasure
DeepO: I definately will try to get back on my Sunday schedule
DeepO: if that still suits you
vondrack: thank you, Aeson, for attending, too
Aeson: my pleasure
vondrack: yes, most probably (Sundays)
DeepO: cool
vondrack: great - take care, guys!
DeepO: in that case, my regards to Legoland!
vondrack: and talk to you soon
Aeson: later vondrack
vondrack: give my best regards to the victorious folk of GS!
vondrack: bye
DeepO: bye!
DeepO: I read that as vicious
DeepO: lol
vondrack: hehe... that would be a serious diplomatic faux pas...
vondrack: ok, see you
Session Close: Tue Jun 24 00:29:58 2003

[vondrack]

And just PMing DeepO with this:

Hello, DeepO!

Here is the Theology deal draft I promised to send you - I'm doing this in a hurry and feeling a bit sleepy already, so let's hope I made no mistakes:

Legoland-GS Theology Trade Agreement

1) Legoland agrees to provide Gathering Storm (GS) with Theology immediately after signing this agreement. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift this technology to any other party for 20 turns from receiving it. After these 20 turns, GS agrees to not trade Theology to any other team, unless that team also agrees to not build Sistine's Chapel as part of the trade.

2) GS agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel as long as Legoland remains in the game.

Hope this is acceptable. If you can send me a signed copy back, we will send Theology as "accepted" on this very turn.

Best regards,
vondrack

[vondrack]

His quick response:

Vondrack,

this should not be any problem to accept, as it was what we anticipated. However, I need to have some time to let my team comment on it... I'm not sure if we can get this done in time for your turn to end (depends on when it gets played, of course). I'll get back to you asap, but seeing as 99% sure this will get ratified, would it be an idea to 'gift' it to us even if we would be a little late? In case any problem arrises, you can be sure we will not accept the deal.

Again, thanks in your role as mediator, and generous offer... it certainly had an impact on silencing the StormHawk party

DeepO