Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Hmmm... thinking what Tibi says over again... he's probably right. Let's tell them plain no, no lies involved, however safe they might be. We're strong enough to be able to afford that. We've made no fine deal with them so far, so even if they survive, recover, and develop a dislike for us, we will not be losing much.

OK, let's scrap the barb card. Let's refer to the C+C deal, low importance of Feudalism, and "not enough gold" only (revised draft - to be sent tomorrow morning, if nobody objects):

Dear DeepO,

As promised yesterday, here is at least a quick update on the situation Lego is in ATM and on the Feudalism deal proposal you've presented.

To our disappointment, our deals on Currency and Construction went only so-so, despite Construction being our exclusive at the time (and Currency, too, at least for few turns). We were only able to trade C+C to two other teams... RPers even going as far as getting the techs from an illegal source .

The fact is that paying 200 gold for a technology that brings no immediate benefit to us (our Mercenaries are better than Pikemen + we are not planning to attempt building Sun Tzu's) does not sound right, considering how much cash we have and how much cash we need. Even slowing down our full speed research of Theology in order to set 12gpt aside for you seems not justified. Let's wait a couple of turns until Chivalry and Theology are available for trade (we are a little bit over 10 turns from discovering Theology ATM) and get back to the issue then.

As for the rest of information - thanks for keeping us updated. Especially the information about RPers is quite worrying, as they pose to be our best friends all the time... dunno what to think of that...

Looking forward to our Sunday chat!
Radek aka vondrack

[Kloreep]

Suggestion on the RPer paragraph: change "pose to be" to "say they are". Let's keep our own interpretations out of it... no reason to hint at our dislike of RPers.

Edit: Forgot to say that I otherwise say

[vondrack]

Sounds fine, Kloreep, will change that.

[vondrack]

Earlier today, I sent the following message to DeepO via email (could not post it earlier here - Poly was down):

Hi, DeepO!

As promised, here is at least a quick update on the situation Lego is in ATM and on the Feudalism deal proposal you've presented.

To our disappointment, our deals on Currency and Construction went only so-so, despite Construction being our exclusive at the time (and Currency, too, at least for few turns). We were only able to trade C+C to two other teams... RPers even going as far as getting the techs from an illegal source.

The fact is that paying 200 gold for a technology that brings no immediate benefit to us (our Mercenaries are better than Pikemen + we are not planning to attempt building Sun Tzu's) does not sound right, considering how much cash we have and how much cash we need. Even slowing down our full speed research of Theology in order to set 12gpt aside for you seems not justified. Let's wait a couple of turns until Chivalry and Theology are available for trade (we are a little bit over 10 turns from discovering Theology ATM) and get back to the issue then.

As for the rest of information - thanks for keeping us updated. Especially the information about RPers is quite worrying, as they say they are our best friends all the time... dunno what to think of that...

Looking forward to our chat today!
vondrack

[vondrack]

Coming back from lunch, I have found DeepO's response in my mailbox:

Vondrack,

I can understand your position on Feudalism, and frankly, I personally didn't expect you to buy it directly from us now. We can't offer you any discount on the price, as we're already losing money on this tech when asking for 200 gold for each trade, especially now that Vox is no longer an interested party (Well, I don't know if they have realised that we were so close, we can upgrade before their first unit would reach one of our cities.)

However we have concerns that, even as we put definately most trouble into getting the tech, other teams would 'steal' our profits. It took us a while to convince GoW to buy from us, instead of doing it themselves, which gave us a lot of insight of how things are going on Bob. Apparently, the reason why they wanted to do it themselves, at higher cost and longer eta was that RP had demanded it, in the spirit of a trade embargo against us. (us being GS here). But ND does not listen so closely to RP, and wanted to buy Feud from us, which would put GoW at a considerable delay in getting Chivalry.

Timing of next techs: I can only guess at it, but if we would go for full research, we should be able to get next tech in 6-7 turns (so after Feud). I don't think we'll do that, we can use the money to rush some of our improvements that now don't get build because we need more troops. But it should be easy to both get some cash, and finish our next tech around the time you finish Theo. We're in full debate which tech that will be: it looks like Chivalry would either be a super tech to research if we can sell it to both GoW and ND, or a total waste if both would research it themselves. If we don't offer it to them, we can be sure there are two teams who will waste beakers on the tech, so maybe it's best if we would go for something else (invention?) in the mean time. But this is still heavily debated right now, the situation has changed in more then one respect with this Vox war. But, no matter which tech we would go for, we would end that second tech around the same time as you would end Theo.

You've just given us more proof of the closeness and dangers from the Bobians, with the C&C deals (we had similar problems with republic). That was already the start of their trade embargo against us (us being both Lego and GS here). I can imagine who was willing to play the secret source on construction: Vox. They have been backstabbing us for about 10-15 turns, if we afterwards analyse where our relation soured. Which would be perfectly in time to get some more money out of tech trades they were not allowed to commit.

RP: yes, they seem friendly, but I swear they told us you were the biggest threat to them in specific and to everyone in general, and that they were looking for ideas how to stop that. So, at that moment their tone towards us was super friendly, solliciting to get into alliances against the evil Lego empire... however, at the same time they were asking exactly the same thing of GoW, only not an alliance against Lego, but against GS. And I can only imagine that they have sent quite a few messages to you, to try to set you up against GS.

One of the dirtiest trick they use (dirty in the sense that we should look out for them, not in the sense of being illegal in this game) are the unofficial messages. These are like "we will deny to have sent you this information, but you know that XX is backstabbing you in your deal on YYY, right?". So far, all the messages we received contained an element of thruth in there, and were vague enough on other fronts. All were directed to make us angry, or sour relations, or 'expose' something another team had been allegedly doing to us. While we were close to Vox, most were about Vox. Now, we're beginning to receive them about you, and GoW (ND has very little contact with RP, it seems. Or they hide it very well). I can only imagine you are getting the same messages, if you get any about us, never be afraid to simply ask whether something is true, instead of assuming RP is telling you the thruth, to help you. They're only trying to help themselves.

Last comment: we have obtained maps of Bob, maybe you have too, maybe you haven't. Anyway, we can't give you our WM directly as we will not give away our own map so easily, but if you would be interested in eg screenshots (up to date up to 2 turns ago, when we received the map), maybe we can strike a deal. Otherwise, we have more accurate information on the Bobians (well, more accurate... the number of cities I told you earlier was quite an accurate analysis, but the situation has changed a bit, and it gets harder and harder to analyse it from the F-screens)

See you tonight, I'm looking forward to it. I hope I'll be able to get into the chatroom, a couple of days ago I tried for nearly 2 hours before finaly giving up.

DeepO

My comments in the next post.

[vondrack]

First: I must admit I didn't have as much trouble reading through this message as was the case with previous GS messages. It is a bit less arrogant/cocky and actually contains a wealth of quite interesting information.

Here is a couple of observations:

1) It was a good idea to scrap the barb card. We got away with a simple "no" and pretty much genuine reasons. Thanks to everybody pushing for this approach.

2) I'm a bit confused about GS' next tech plans - I don't see how they could research Invention without having to research Engineering first (I'm sure noone else has Engineering available for trade at this moment). And quite frankly, I believe that if they decide to go for anything, but Chivalry, they're 100% dead. Chivalry might be the advantage tipping the scales in their favour in the long run... if they survive the first wave of Voxian immos, that is... but if they really go for something else, then... well...

3) If you are impressed by how fast they'd be able to get the next tech if researching at 100%, keep in mind they're in their GA now.

4) Note the line about "their relations souring about 10-15 turns ago". Perhaps something important happened between them at that time?

5) RPers... sigh... even though we cannot be sure whether the information DeepO gives is 100% genuine, I lean towards trusting him. It somehow corresponds with my own feelings and with what other teams (GoW, namely) report on Togas' backstage machinations as well. I do not think we should react in any way ATM, but once Monarchy is paid for, we may wish to consider stopping trading to RPers completely. Considering how popular they are with other teams, they may easily get into isolation (at least tech-wise), ceasing to be any threat to us eventually.

[Sharpe]

At our chat we should press GS for the RP info - if they have any chat logs or PMs and for them to send it to us. If they do produce that then we will have to start to plan something against the RP to thwart their "campaign" against us.

Certainly it shows what their real agenda was in that "defensive" pact - to get our maps so they could spread them around and to plot where to attack and to divide our lands among the attackers.

[vondrack]

OK, here goes the chatlog... enjoy!

Part I

Session Start: Sun Apr 13 22:07:22 2003
Session Ident: #vino
DeepO: hi vondrack
vondrack: good evening!
redstar1: all the guys might be interested in diplomacy
redstar1: we don't get much of it
alva: Hi von
DeepO: hi everyone!
Sharpe: Hi!
DeepO: welcome, I would say
Kloreep: Hi.
alva: ok, welcome all
DeepO: it's good to see so many interested people from Lego
vondrack: yeah... the last message (the part on RPers) was quite worrying
vondrack: raised interest in our chat
redstar1: well you caught a few of us on, so what the hell
alva: So many people, no wonder you build the pyramids
vondrack: yeah, everybody lent a hand
DeepO: well, first of all, let me say that I'm a few hours behind on the situation
Sharpe: yeah, Vondrack sure used the whips on us for that Pyramids - said something about his burial tomb
alva: again congrats btw
DeepO: I agree
DeepO: quite a feast that must have given
DeepO: however, I don't know if it was good for your international situation
redstar1: yeah, though i looked after the virgins
DeepO:
DeepO: let's start with RP
vondrack: ok
DeepO: I'm not sure how much communication you have gotten the past weeks from them
vondrack: not that much
redstar1: no, RP have been fairly quiet
DeepO: however, the few things we got we're quite troubling
vondrack: actually, you indicated you'd expect us getting "those" messages from RP, too
vondrack: but we do not really get them... ???
DeepO: yeah
DeepO: well, they'll come
vondrack: perhaps
DeepO: most of the times, it's not a good sign when they send those msgs
DeepO: let me explain our situation a little
vondrack: ok, fine
DeepO: before going on with yours
DeepO: Vox: they have been looking for a way to use their immortals
DeepO: and we're pretty sure it was mosly RP that made them come from us
DeepO: then, we got such an unofficial message
DeepO: explaining that there was no incursion of Bob
DeepO: (which we were expecting)
DeepO: later on, we learn that Vox gets paid by RP to enter this war
DeepO: (well, maybe as payment for a tech, but that's just the excuse)
DeepO: and still, RP is very friendly, and asks us about how we are going to take care of Lego
DeepO: which we have no interest in, of course
DeepO: the point is: RP knows that the two isolationists are the biggesst risk to them
DeepO: and are trying everything they can to make us isolated
DeepO: us by getting us in a war
DeepO: which, as we explained to them, is not really a problem
DeepO: we're not going to lose becuase of this war, on the contrary
DeepO: so the moment they figured that out, they have been trying to set GoW, and most likely ND against us
DeepO: they demanded (yes demanded, not asked)
DeepO: that GoW was going to research Feud themselves
DeepO: so no more gold would go to us
DeepO: meanwhile, they're trying to isolate you too
DeepO: so I can only imagine that in the near future, you will find eg GoW not willing to trade with you on a certain tech
DeepO: you then could imagine what it means
DeepO: The problem is, that we will grow through Vox, but with your Pyaramids, you will grow too
DeepO: so I can expect the pressure building the coming weeks
DeepO: watch out...
DeepO: also for the UUs
DeepO: well, that's basically it
redstar1: you are planning to conquer vox?
DeepO: right now?
DeepO: yes
DeepO: we were not a few turns ago
DeepO: but this is an opportunity we can't miss
DeepO: and we were provoked, even attacked into this war
DeepO: so to not lose face, this war will likely continue till either one of us is dead
redstar1: fair enough
DeepO: yeah, but we didn't want it
vondrack: after all that trash talking, that's is very likely )
redstar1: any idea of relative military strength?
DeepO: we were happily sailing beneath the score radar
Sharpe: loved the avatar war
DeepO: me too
DeepO: mil strength: yes, we know the maximum strength of Vox
DeepO: and we're smaller for the moment
DeepO: buut Vox is going to need to have 3 more turns at least before they can attack one of our cities
vondrack: yeah, it's a bit worrying you appear to be the weakest team ATM
DeepO: and at that moment, we'll have more then enough troops
DeepO: maybe.
DeepO: but our empire is the easiest to defend
vondrack: I mean - that's what the Mil Adv says (F3)
DeepO: and upgrades are coming... Vox has nothing left to upgrade
DeepO: I know
vondrack: RPers first, then everybody else, then GS last
DeepO: but its no problem to us
DeepO: yeah... a good thing RP doesn't have boats yet (or at least not many)
DeepO: or they would sail here to get us
alva: One of the reasons we didn' as many units, is that we would always have ample warning
vondrack: yeah, we are also quite sure RPers were neglecting seas
DeepO: Grog was our warning
DeepO: and he did his job splendidly
DeepO: poor Grog
alva:
vondrack:
DeepO: RP and Sea: do you have maps of them?
Sharpe: well now you will have to get a MaGrog
vondrack: yes, we do (map)
DeepO: ah, ok
alva: We will get all his family now
DeepO: I guess Vox has been shopping around
vondrack: ?
DeepO: so you also see they only have one coastal city for now
DeepO: and its on our side
vondrack: yeah, that we know
DeepO: well, what did you think about RP
DeepO: I mean before my msg
vondrack: well, RPers have always been very friendly
vondrack: talked about deals
vondrack: talked about cooperation
DeepO: specific talk about us?
vondrack: nothing at all
DeepO: strange
vondrack: actually, only Bobians were ever involved in their comms, I think
DeepO: I would suspect that they tried to get us against you, and to get you against us too
DeepO: ?
DeepO: I don't understand
vondrack: no, not really...
redstar1: no RP rarely if ever mention 3rd parties in their communications
DeepO: well... it seems to me, that we both have to watch out for them
DeepO: ok
DeepO: well, they don't mention GoW to us
DeepO: but GoW is rather lose when it comes to their diplo contacts
DeepO: so the moment they got something from RP, we knew
DeepO: (I mean last time, because we were chatting with them atm)
DeepO: which was quite handy
vondrack: lose? like sharing info on RPers?
DeepO: as it instantly made them look bad for 2 teams
DeepO: sure
vondrack: aha
DeepO: like quoting messages
DeepO: which we will never do
DeepO: and most other teams don't do either
redstar1: bit of a no no without permission
DeepO: so far simply talking about RP
DeepO: well, it seems to us that RP is really into getting their position safe for the upcoming UU wars
DeepO: after that, they will turn to both of us
DeepO: and we would like to keep them from doing that
DeepO: certainly now that there is a big chance that both us and Lego will grow a lot harder than they can
DeepO: ... which was, in a sense, the initial idea in getting into a tech trade deal for us
DeepO: because we can't be isolated from everyone
vondrack: that's correct
DeepO: we can handle Bob, though, just not Lego too
DeepO: it seems to me, that you are very much in the same situation
DeepO: which makes things possible
redstar1: ahh you percieve us as a threat?
redstar1: hehe
DeepO: no, not military
DeepO: but for winning this game? sure
DeepO: but that's no problem whatsoever
redstar1: well thats nothing new, everyone is in it to win it
Sharpe: winning is a long way off...
DeepO: sure, but not everyone is going to be big enough to do it
alva: all but vox
redstar1: well there is a long long way to go
redstar1: and we would take a long term view on things
DeepO: and RP is right, that these turns are decisive when it comes to growth
DeepO: exactly, as do we
DeepO: which is why we were happily building along, before the war
DeepO: as were you
Sharpe: what is your impression of the Bob map now that you see it?
DeepO: a lot of land
DeepO: and poorly improved
DeepO: plus, there are some serious problems there, between the geographical relation of the threee teams
DeepO: ND is, as they say in Dutch, the sigar
alva: true, I dont think I have ever had a start like GoW
Sharpe: out of curiousity do you see us now too?
DeepO: no exactly
DeepO: we know a bit of your coast
Sharpe: well it is better than their one tile tundra start
DeepO: but did you trade your map, in exchange for the other WM?
vondrack: well, one thing to keep in mind is that all Bobians shared their maps... so GoW & ND know very well that RPers got the best start - that should be likely to make them less inclined to ally with them
Sharpe: no we do not trade maps
vondrack: never
DeepO: ok, good
vondrack: team policy
vondrack: same as yourself, right?
DeepO: we neither, but there is not much to protect, once coastal exploration will have completed
vondrack: oh, that's right
DeepO: our land is small, compared to both you, and Bob
nbarclay: Let's just say it would take a lot more reason than we've had thus far for us to trade it.
DeepO:
DeepO: for us the same
DeepO: but we're not losing wars yet
vondrack: it seems to drive some teams mad when we refuse to trade for our WM...
DeepO: RP complained, yes
vondrack: I guess you met the same reactions...
alva: I don't why btw
DeepO: and they somehow took it as an offense
alva: what's wrong with keeping some FOW??
DeepO: the strange thing is, I can't remember them asking it of us
alva: GoW did
DeepO: yeah
DeepO: so that may have been a RP request
DeepO: more of the things we get from GoW first are 'cleared' with RP, it seems
DeepO: which really is a problem
vondrack: you think they are feeding you with "crafted" info?
alva: not as long long as we it
DeepO: well, anymore someone wants to add to the RP thing?
DeepO: maybe
vondrack: just that we VERY well know
vondrack: how you feel
DeepO: it certainly is a possibility
DeepO: you mean vs RP?
nbarclay: I wonder whether RP has thought of the possibility that if they tug on puppet strings too much, the puppets might start tugging back?
vondrack: I do not think so (re: nathan)
redstar1: they never see childs play?
vondrack: and that is what's scaring me in the ISDG
vondrack: since Togas conducts the diplomacy there in the same way
DeepO: but are the puppets tugging back?
DeepO: I mean, they sometimes have a point
DeepO: and are not afraid to state it
DeepO: like when they asked GoW to don't trade Feud to us
DeepO: or from us
DeepO: they are right of course, it would set us back a lot, if we can't trade it to Bob
DeepO: we already lose money on the deal
Sharpe: wonder how RP is going to be like if they get hold of all those luxuries
DeepO: doesn't matter
DeepO: they shouldn't be allowed to get so far
vondrack: talk about lost money on tech deals... our sour experience with C+C was enough to get the taste
DeepO: that was RP, I'm quite sure
DeepO: but of course, they still kept a friendly face to you
vondrack: yes, they did
DeepO: can you imagine that, even if we understand your concerns, it scares us that you are willing to get Feud elsewhere
DeepO: ?
DeepO: because that too can easily be a RP 'request' for all we care
vondrack: well, for the moment, we are not going to get it anywhere
DeepO: fine
vondrack: since we have no use for it
DeepO: I understand your situation, really.
vondrack: you will not see us having Feu for at least 15 turns
vondrack: probably more
DeepO: well, chivalry will be sooner then 15 turns
vondrack: we hope to make some bundle tech deals later on
vondrack: since we are pushing our way through the Edu branch
DeepO: so watch out, Bob is not going to attack us, if they have any brains left. But Lego, without chivalry...
DeepO: okay, that's fine too
nbarclay: Is there anything we could start working toward with you?
nbarclay: In terms of setting things up for a deal later?
vondrack: right now... well, do you happen to know if anyone researches Engineering?
vondrack: just checking
vondrack: I assume you will go for Chivalry
DeepO: we don't know for sure, no
vondrack: because of the war
DeepO: do you?
DeepO: well... chivalry is not needed to get Vox down
vondrack: yes, it would seem logical?
DeepO: so we're still deciding what to do...
nbarclay: This is strictly confidential, but we may be arranging to get Chivalry from someone else.
vondrack: oh, well... it seems we do not have a clear idea on Voxes' military
DeepO: well, what do you assume on Vox's strength?
alva: How big do you think Vox is?
vondrack: since if I was you, I'd probably play it safe and go for Chiv
nbarclay: In which case there's a good chance Engineering would be a priority for us, especially if we expect to be able to trade it on reasonable terms.
vondrack: re: Vox strength
vondrack: all we know they appear to be stronger than us
DeepO: Chivalry: it's the same thing others have thought about us getting Feud fast
DeepO: but that was not really the reason
DeepO: we can withhold Vox with spears, swords, and WCs
Sharpe: I would say you might get some civs suspicious if you don't get Chivalry in the midst of a war
DeepO: pikes and medinf is simply a plus
DeepO: ?
DeepO: but why?
nbarclay: WC = 2 attack, 20 shields.
DeepO: we are facing a slowmover army, with biggest defense of 2
nbarclay: Knight = 4 attack, 70 shields.
vondrack: hmm... admittedly, Knights are expensive
nbarclay: As long as we don't go up against anything with a defense over 2, it's debatable how much value per shield knights would add.
DeepO: WCs are much more effective in the open ground, while med inf, or swords, cover all slow terrain
Sharpe: that's true re expensive
DeepO: which is all there is to it, really
DeepO: we are planning on swarming them
DeepO: with loads of units we can easily build, and keep building in our GA
DeepO: which they cannot, as they have very few cities left, with no production
alva: and no population
Sharpe: how many cities do Vox have ?
DeepO: let's whip them some more, thinks Vox
vondrack: well, I trust you have the best idea of what you need to make this war go your way... just that when someone says "immortals", it sounds scary...
DeepO: don't you see this on your maps?
DeepO: immortals are no good, if they don't get to attack, and simply need to defend
nbarclay: When you can produce medieval infantry faster than they can produce immortals, it's not nearly so scary.
alva: Vox should have come earlier..
nbarclay: Especially when you can also produce pikes faster than they can produce spears.
DeepO: true
nbarclay: (Not yet, but soon.)

to be continued...

[vondrack]

Part II

vondrack: well, you are perhaps right
vondrack: we are just used to building NMs before granaries, you know
vondrack: the builders, what do you think...
DeepO: do you have maps of Vox, or other ways to watch what is going on?
alva: especially with how our continent is drawn
vondrack: DeepO, we can see only a small part of Voxes' territory
DeepO: ok
DeepO: well, I was right the first time
DeepO: they had, at that moment, 5 cities
DeepO: currently, they have 6
DeepO: and 3 of them are size 1, poprushed
vondrack: hmmm... that must be less than half of what you have
DeepO: 1 is size 3, 2 are size 4
DeepO: yeah, about
DeepO: but only in numbers of cities, we did not whip our population once
vondrack: I wonder... how come they started this war?
vondrack: it seems so uneven
DeepO: RP
DeepO: easy answer
DeepO: and lack of insight in the mil advisor
nbarclay: Also, we showed up as weak on Vox's military advisor.
nbarclay: Of course the advisor doesn't tell you what the enemy can get ready to meet you with by the time you get there.
DeepO: true, but that was not their only problem
alva: no spy satellites yet
DeepO: and frankly, because of Grog, they had very few options
DeepO: they needed to start this war well before a surprise attack could have worked
vondrack: that's right... but still... one would expect a more thoughtful approach to a war that may lead to their extinction
* vondrack shakes his head
DeepO: it was a life or die thing
DeepO: either they can gain from it
alva: the macarthur decoy was nicely setup though
DeepO: or they die, in a blaze of glory, as one of our members called it
DeepO: yeah, they started on this 15 turns ago
DeepO:
vondrack: was the first landing faked, too???
vondrack: I thought it was the second one only...?
DeepO: no, but the turn after, they said to us that they were going to return to Bob
alva: no, that was real
nbarclay: There's a city that almost has to be left over from the first landing.
DeepO: which was never their idea
DeepO: they should have attacked us then, at that moment, the mil adv wasn't lying
vondrack: but they appeared weak at that time, too
vondrack: I am checking the F3 screen quite frequently
DeepO: which gave us a good idea of their strength
vondrack: I am quite sure they did not have the military either
DeepO: we knew, because we were more or less even, how many warriors they had
DeepO: before connecting iron
DeepO: afterwards, only a few could have been build
DeepO: but of course, with a 4 attack value, an immortal is worth more then a swords
DeepO: while the effect can be the same
alva: unless someone supplied them whith lots of workers
DeepO: well, who?
alva: J/K
DeepO: I know
alva:
DeepO: how are your relations with GoW, BTW?
vondrack: quite fine, I'd say
vondrack: good trades
DeepO: they seem to be the most friendly people on Bob
vondrack: they actually helped us to catch up techwise
DeepO: and at least their friendliness is real
DeepO: well, yes, but we offered that too
vondrack: profitable to both sides, but a very fine deal
DeepO: and at fewer expense to you
vondrack: yes, with friendliness, you never know...
vondrack: yes, we'd have difficult times catching up w/o the deal we made with them
vondrack: we'd bleed gold-wise
vondrack: perhaps have to trade our map
vondrack: etc.
DeepO: maybe
vondrack: GoW was great to deal with
DeepO: we offered it for a very limited amount of gold
DeepO: and I'm sure we would have settled to get one tech in return
DeepO: but that's all hindsight
vondrack: the problem was that you were quite far away
DeepO: true
DeepO: the thing is, we know that many times, we don't need an immediate advantage to gain in the long term
vondrack: and we did not want to risk harming our relations with GoW by sailing throug "their" waters
vondrack: so we took the deal
vondrack: yes, that's our approach as well
nbarclay: "A bird in the hand," right?
DeepO: which was good, I think
DeepO: yeah
vondrack: yep, exactly
vondrack: actually, GoW is our closest neighbour
vondrack: so we are trying to maintain good relations
DeepO: we the same, once we take Vox, GoW is only 1 tile away
DeepO: for us, and this has not changed, it's important that Lego grows to be stronger then anyone on Bob
alva: How far is Vox from your west side btw?
vondrack: VERY far
vondrack: like
vondrack: let me check
vondrack: like 1/3-1/4 of the minimap width, I think
vondrack: much farther than Bob
alva: auch
DeepO: Bob is only a few tiles away...
DeepO: has GoW explored even more to your North, in search for iron islands?
alva: looks like we're never gonna invade you then, or vice-versa
DeepO:
DeepO: which was my point: we would gain most if Lego is strong
vondrack: not until Transports
DeepO: as there is no risk military, both could help each other building
vondrack: re: GoW... they seem to be mapping our coast, probably
alva: and serve as a deterent
vondrack: well, we keep an eye out on them
vondrack: so far, they haven't tried to land anywhere
vondrack: but on the Mystery Island
vondrack: that is what they call Baby Bob
DeepO: they are starting on 'our' (as in Vox-GS) coast too
alva: any team attacking one of us, will be weak'ened on the other side
DeepO: Baby Bob is strange
DeepO: what good would it do to them
vondrack: no idea
DeepO: if not strategical?
vondrack: what I especially don't get is why they plopped TWO cities there
DeepO: in that they could use it as a base of support to get to Legoland
DeepO: one hut?
DeepO: was there a hut when you saw it first?
vondrack: yep, there was
DeepO: might explain it...
vondrack: but GoW beat us to it
DeepO: ah, you watched?
DeepO: settler?
vondrack: not really - we explored the coast of Baby Bob before they came there
vondrack: so we can see what's going on there
DeepO: hmmm
vondrack: cities and such
vondrack: and btw, we can still see there hut there, I think
DeepO: one sec
DeepO: I'll check
vondrack: since we were not in the area for quite some time
vondrack: but it's been popped
vondrack: long time ago
vondrack: I am sure
nbarclay: I wonder if maybe GoW forgot about not being able to irrigate without a water source until the industrial age.
DeepO: yeah, the hut is gone
vondrack: I believe they got a tech out of it
DeepO: that would be stupid, I can't believe that
DeepO: (iirr, I mean)
vondrack: Polytheism it was? I think so
Sharpe: That might explain how GoW suddenly offered us Polytheism Vondrack
DeepO: aha, that would explain how that tech got distrubted so fast
DeepO: maybe they are running from ND
vondrack: yes, it coincided with the distribution of Polytheism, as far as I can recall
DeepO: I don't those two teams like each other much
vondrack: ND is a mystery to us
vondrack: we offered them a fine deal
vondrack: yet they turned it down
DeepO: Yeah, they don't talk a lot
Sharpe: wrapped up in an enigma
nbarclay: I think they're a mystery to everyone.
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: yes
vondrack: but they are doing quite well
vondrack: considering how little diplomacy they conduct
alva: Still, settling on Bob counts double from a GOW POV, (gain and denial)
Sharpe: ND's city pattern is quite spherical
DeepO: they're good
DeepO: their cities are using a max of resources, without wasting travel time for their troops
vondrack: I wonder... could it be there is some kind of a border treaty between GoW & ND, forbidding more GoW settlements on Bob?
DeepO: no there isn't
vondrack: this might explain their cities on Baby Bob
vondrack: hmmm... then I truly don't know
redstar1: they didn't want us to get it most likely
redstar1: or anyone else
DeepO: the way I understand it, they warn each other when a settler leaves for a spot, and the other directs its settlers elsewhere
vondrack: perhaps
redstar1: its the lentini factor
DeepO: further, they try to not upset each other
DeepO: by settling too close
vondrack: what language are you speaking now, redstar?
DeepO: which also explains why the former Lux lands aren't settled yet
vondrack: they both probably wait for their UUs
DeepO: yes
DeepO: but where is RP in all of this?
Sharpe: that should be interesting
DeepO: are they going to join one side, to the other?
alva: I wonder what they all are going to do with their UU and GA's
vondrack: hmmm... RPers... you certainly noticed they are not building an empire, but a wall, right?
DeepO: certainly
alva: Expand on BoB, or beyond..
DeepO: but it wouldn't surpise me if they would join with GoW, and divide ND between them
vondrack: I guess they are scared of those UUs...
redstar1: RP have ample land to settle in their south
vondrack: that is quite likely, yes
DeepO: which is also why they fear the both of us: we could easily land beneath their wall
Sharpe: oh are you that close to RP there?
redstar1: would be a great shame if they had pyramids
DeepO: ampple land, certainly. But not if we decide to take up camp there
DeepO: not really, we can't reach it directly
vondrack: along the Vox coast only?
DeepO: yep
DeepO: but still, this would be enough
vondrack: hmmm.. do you happen to have an idea of Vox navy?
DeepO: yeah, well, we know they have at least 2 galleys
DeepO: but not how many they have over that
alva: yep, it sinks very fast
DeepO: and we know they have no harbor, so only regs
DeepO: do you have any more info?
vondrack: ok, that's fine... we are going to be very suspicious towards anyone having more than 5 of them
DeepO:
DeepO: well, doesn't have GoW at least 4 galleys?
vondrack: I can't recall now... have you asked if we are suspicious toward GoW?
vondrack:
vondrack: j/k
redstar1: lol
DeepO: well, I would be, if they settled so close to me
DeepO: but GoW isn't sneaky
DeepO: they are quite brute
DeepO: which is fine, really, you know what you can expect when talking to them
redstar1: well we made no official claim on mystery island, and it is closer to them than us....
vondrack: yes... they made it clear they were determined to get it
vondrack: it did not seem like a reason good enough to go to war with them
DeepO: which is fine, I think GoW needs room to expand more then any other Bob team
vondrack: especially because - as you correctly noted - it is not the best piece of land on this map
DeepO:
DeepO: well, some of our territory would be worse then that
DeepO: but has access to water
vondrack: oops...
DeepO:
nbarclay: And from what little we've seen of it, Lego isn't exactly hurting for land elsewhere.
Sharpe: good land is at a premium
vondrack: with the Pyramids finished now, you can imagine we were not really keen on going to war at that time
DeepO: of course
vondrack: on of our core cities was too busy
DeepO: buut be careful, as other know this too
vondrack: it was sort of a risk
DeepO: it still is
vondrack: you know what is funny?
DeepO: ?
vondrack: it was initially not a Pyramid build
vondrack: but Great Library
DeepO:
DeepO: didn't I ask you that in our first chat? It made a lot of sense
Sharpe: lol, it changed several times actually
vondrack: to make sure we'd be able to catch up
vondrack: but after we did catch up w/o GLib
vondrack: we were looking for something else, preventing a shield waste
DeepO: but as I can tell you from one of our internal PBEM games, the GL is many times too much
vondrack: Pyramids made sense
DeepO: in that it really is a bullseye for other civs
Sharpe: besides we didn't want anyone on Bob to get the Pyramids there
DeepO: or us
vondrack: well, yes... but what other chance we'd have if not crossing the sea so soon?
Sharpe: Bob was much more of a worry with all that land
vondrack: just imagine contacting the rest of the world with a lag of 8 techs... :scary:
DeepO: of course... actually, in the same situation, I would have build the GL, but not build a galley
vondrack: heh... that was our plan
DeepO: and let me be discovered
DeepO:
Sharpe: until we saw Baby Bob...
vondrack: but then Baby Bob appeared
vondrack: until GoW saw it actually
vondrack: we missed it
vondrack: even though we did have a chance to see it
DeepO: hmm... things tend to change quickly in this game, no?
Sharpe: actually Zargon saw it
vondrack: slipped our attention at that time
DeepO: ah, that's unfortunate
vondrack: it was about 15 turns into the game
vondrack: our first warrior got to the Northernmost tip of Legos Major
vondrack: and was actually able to see a tiny bit of coastal waters
DeepO: Do you have any kind of deal with GoW, where they don't settle your lands?
vondrack: no, we do not
DeepO: maybe good to ask them
DeepO: and see their reaction
redstar1: its taken as read i think that we would not appreciate it
vondrack: but we made it very clear we are going to attack anything landing on "our" soil
DeepO: well, that's the same, of course
vondrack: yes
vondrack: and they seem to understand
vondrack: happily sail around us
vondrack: doing nothing bad
vondrack: let's hope it will last
DeepO: I hope it for you
Sharpe: if you have the map of our coast , clearly they are selling their map around
DeepO: well, not necessarily
vondrack: how come?
DeepO: we got our map from Vox, as said with the last payment acknowledged the moment war started
nbarclay: If GoW is the only one sailing around, that's who our information on Lego has to have originated from.
Sharpe: ah interesting
DeepO: we suspect it came from RP
DeepO: which means that the Bobians are exchanging maps
nbarclay: Is anyone besides GoW nosing around your lands?
Sharpe: what do you see of our map? out of curiousity?
vondrack: well, there is one more thing
vondrack: ND established an embassy with us
vondrack: we did not understand why they did it
DeepO: maps: we see as much as GoW had explored, we think up to 7-9 turns ago
Sharpe: any of our cities?
DeepO: so one trail going North
DeepO: you mean your capital
DeepO: ?
Sharpe: oh you see that?
vondrack: btw - can you see our capital on the map?
DeepO: yeah
vondrack: that means ND trade their map around!
vondrack: noone else can see it
DeepO: we could, it would be rather easy
vondrack: noone else established an embassy
DeepO: but you would notice, of course
nbarclay: We see Legopolis and something that at least starts Panama.
vondrack: yes, of course
DeepO: ND: still, we think it came from RP
vondrack: dunno...
DeepO: add to that the GoW map
DeepO: or at least their exploration of your coasts
vondrack: it's a bit too complicated for someone who had a bottle of red wine two hours ago...
DeepO: and you have 3 trading teams
DeepO:
DeepO: I can imagine, I had wine with dinner as well
vondrack:
DeepO: hence the title of this chatroom
vondrack: oh!
DeepO:
vondrack: it is even the same as in Czech!
vondrack: vÃno
DeepO: well, this was Latin
DeepO: not Dutch

to be continued...

[vondrack]

Part III

DeepO: would it be too much to ask who you got your map from, and when?
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: I think we can tell you
DeepO: great
vondrack: it was actually very funny
Sharpe: hilarious more like
vondrack: few turns after we made contact with GoW
vondrack: ND approached us and offered a contact to you & their world map
vondrack: sent a PM, asked for some gold (50?) and our map
vondrack: we PMed them back, explaining we were not trading our map under any circumstances
vondrack: but we agreed to pay 50 gold for your contact
vondrack: seemed the right thing to do
DeepO:
vondrack: anyway - what I did was I threw in 50 gold and "accepted"
vondrack: sent back
vondrack: sent a PM explaining what it meant
vondrack: expected them to take the map out
vondrack: accept and... you get the idea
DeepO: I hear you coming
DeepO:
vondrack: well, the next turn, we got the save and had their map
vondrack: and a PM
vondrack: explaining their leader made a mistake
vondrack: misunderstanding what it all was about
DeepO: so your is rather outdated when it comes to improvement
vondrack: yes, it is
Sharpe: but we do see the new cities as they pop up
vondrack: we can see cities, but the improvements must be quite outdated
vondrack: on with the story
DeepO: maybe there is some merit in exchanging screenshots of the map of Bob, ours is 2 turns old
vondrack: by chance
DeepO: sure (story going on)
vondrack: we got your contact for free
vondrack: or, rather
vondrack: YOU got it from GoW on that very turn
DeepO: (whiich was also kind of unexpected)
nbarclay: Part of the deal to let them trade you Code of Laws, as I recall.
vondrack: so it all actually ended up that we let them keep the money (for "nothing") and they were ok with us having the map
DeepO:
vondrack: we effectively got the map of Bob for 50 gold
DeepO: 50 gold for a WM is no bad deal at all!
vondrack: now, that was cheap, wasn't it?
vondrack: yes )
nbarclay: Ours cost 95 gold.
nbarclay: And Vox attacked us the moment the sale was completed.
DeepO: which we thought to also be a bargain
DeepO: yeah, those cheats... but they will feel our wrath
vondrack: hm... they must have been desperate for cash, right?
vondrack: I mean... giving their map to you?
vondrack: right before they start a war??
DeepO: the strange thing is, not really
DeepO: we think it was simply to get as much out of our coffers as possible
vondrack: ah, yes, that's the other side of the coin
DeepO: well, we think Vox is still sitting on a kind of large reserve of cash
nbarclay: They probably figured that if the fighting got far enough north for the map to do us much good, they were doomed anyhow.
DeepO: and they can't use it for upgrading, nor for rushin
DeepO: we are rather terrified it would all flow to RP, if they would get down to 1 or 2 cities
vondrack: yes, that makes sense (re: doomed)
DeepO: Ah, Vox...
DeepO: we really liked them, you know
vondrack: hmmm... to RPers... what could be done against it?
DeepO: one thing can be done: trade embargo against them
DeepO: instead of them against us
DeepO: they would feel it very fast
Sharpe: those luxuries will be a problem though if they get them
vondrack: no, I meant something different
DeepO: but we need Bobians in the deal
DeepO: ?
vondrack: I meant - what could be done against RPers getting Vox gold?
DeepO: nothing at all
vondrack: what about saving Voxes? letting them live?
DeepO: We can't run fast enough to get it ourselves
DeepO: No deal
DeepO: they have offended us
vondrack: not an option for you, I understand
vondrack: yes
DeepO: we have screamed from the beginning that we are going to play this game honorably
DeepO: so we can't allow anyone to abuse us
DeepO: so that we lose face
vondrack: I was thinking about something like... letting them save their life... only because of someone's mercy
DeepO: if they find refuge some where else, it's fine
vondrack: much like what they did to Luxes
DeepO: but they will be driven off our continent
nbarclay: If it were me, I don't think I'd want to stay in the game if I had no chance of being even halfway competitive.
DeepO: very true
DeepO: which was one of the reasons why they attacked
nbarclay: I'd rather be conquered and be done with it.
vondrack: hmmm.... that is something I will have to think about
DeepO: are you planning to lose ground soon?
vondrack: nah...
vondrack: I was...
vondrack: it's such a wild idea
vondrack: gimme a sec, please
DeepO: wild ideas are most of the times the best
DeepO: sure
vondrack: see... if the gold flowing to RPers (or anyone else, for that matter) should become a problem
vondrack: it might be possible to jump them to our landmass, much like what they did with Luxes
DeepO: be very cautious with that one
vondrack: we are staying fairly neutral in this war
DeepO: sure, the gold is fine
DeepO: but don't burn your fingers
vondrack: so they might agree
vondrack: we have a peninsula here... Legos Minor - mostly mountains
DeepO: well... we wouldn't mind at all
vondrack: but room enough for about 4 cities
DeepO: (make that 2 if Vox is planning)
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: ok, I will keep that in mind
Sharpe: no irrigation possible there don't forget...
vondrack: and if the need emerges
vondrack: we can discuss that again
DeepO: well, really, we don't mind, but watch out how it will be looked upon by Bob
vondrack: yep, no fresh water
DeepO: and, Vox has a reputation to breaking deals
vondrack: hmmm... that's right
vondrack: as I said - just a wild idea
Sharpe: they wouldn't stand a chance against our mercs...
DeepO: I can only imagine others are wanting to do it too
DeepO: not afraid of immortals, are you
vondrack: saving them?
vondrack: getting the gold?
DeepO: yeah, both
DeepO: but the latter most
nbarclay: Just make sure they don't get iron, or your mercs might not be quite so invulnerable.
vondrack: nah... immos are less than impressive against mercs
vondrack: plus, immos can't swim THAT far
vondrack:
DeepO:
vondrack: swimmortals swim short distance only
DeepO: well, if they really have a large amount of cash (lets say 500 gold), a lot is possible
DeepO: but you have to be able to take them out, the first moment of trouble
vondrack: sure
DeepO: like Vox did with Lux, only uncalled for
vondrack: yep, I understand
DeepO: Don't put a stigma on yourselves, as Vox has done
DeepO: we were attacked for defending them on more then one occasion
DeepO: and see what has come from that
vondrack: yes...
DeepO: oh well
DeepO: we'll live
DeepO: maybe, in the mean time, just a little deal we could be working on
DeepO: (kind of home work for the coming week)
vondrack: ok, back
DeepO: you shouldn't be able to get theo before next Sunday, right?
DeepO: so, if we can decide what we go for, we should be able to make a deal with you
DeepO: do you have any special requests?
vondrack: no, not that fast
vondrack: unless you stop sitting on the save all the time
DeepO: no chance, we like sitting on it
DeepO:
vondrack: oh, I would never dare to "request" anything
vondrack: I mean
vondrack: ATM, we have no deals signed
DeepO: why not? we would want to hear where you want to go to.
DeepO: we're not RP... we make requests from time to time
vondrack: hehe
DeepO: you told you were going for edu
vondrack: yes, we are
vondrack: actually, the goal is Astronomy
Sharpe: any tech we trade for is one less we have to research of course
nbarclay: The "sitting on a save" phenomenon is what happens when you try to run a war by committee.
DeepO: which would make it logical for us to take the Southern branch
vondrack: to allow trading over sea tiles
vondrack: yes, that sounds logical
DeepO: okay, that's logical too
DeepO:
vondrack:
DeepO: the thing is, we really can't say when, and how we're going to resume research
vondrack: I fully understand
DeepO: but we would hope that around the time you finish Theo, we get to another tech ourselves
DeepO: so that we can trade...
vondrack: that's quite likely, yes
DeepO: (if by that time, you're not bound by an embargo against us)
DeepO:
vondrack: I do not think we are going to participate in any embargoes...
vondrack:
nbarclay: Do we want to sign a treaty that neither of us will agree to any kind of embargo against the other?
DeepO: maybe
DeepO: good idea
redstar1: or if we do it will be like the russian participation in the arms embargo to iraq
nbarclay: LOL
vondrack: I think it would not be a problem
vondrack: or what redstar says, LoL
redstar1: i don't think we would want to go down the road of embargos etc
DeepO: maybe you will need to
redstar1: i don't see how
DeepO: Bob reuniting would be enough
Sharpe: Bob uniting would be a worry for all I would imagine...
redstar1: i don't see how that would force us into an embargo though
DeepO: well, not if there are only 2 teams left
DeepO: we can, together, outresearch Bob
DeepO: and they could, if they want, embargo just one of us, and research him to death
vondrack: yes, 2 vs 3 should work
redstar1: well thats not so much an embargo as a policy statement
DeepO: true
DeepO: but the way things are going, this might turn to that
redstar1: perhaps, but its a long way away
DeepO: it will be very interesting how the UUs do on Bob
DeepO: we should have a good feeling once they have settled
Sharpe: yeah, when they have settled will be a crucial moment
nbarclay: There are really two potential dangers from Bob:
nbarclay: 1) They might unite against the outside world.
nbarclay: 2) One of them might essentially take out the other two, creating an enormous monster.
DeepO: Sharpe, this comes rather soon... only 20-25 turns from now
Sharpe: well for ND and GoW sooner, for RP later than that
DeepO: and Nathan, I agree. 1) would be a problem as they can join forces with the remainder of Vox
vondrack: Nathan, such a monster would be something to attack immediately from both sides
DeepO: and invade either us, or Lego very early
DeepO: monster: true
DeepO: but this is exactly our problem
DeepO: Vox forced us into becoming a monster
DeepO: and your pyramids will grow you into one for free
DeepO: At least, this is how Bob will see us
nbarclay: The funny thing is, even after we conquer Vox, we aren't really huge by Bobian standards. And our land isn't exactly the ideal shape.
vondrack: fortunately, even if Bobians perceive us or you as threat, it will take them some time to get into a position to invade overseas
DeepO: True... but we will be biggest. If Lego doesn't pass us in size
vondrack: size does not really matter... shields and gold do
Sharpe: Right now - are any of the Bob civs bigger than your area? (without Vox)
vondrack: the less territory one needs to protect, the better
DeepO: ah, but both of those are related to amount of pop, and quality of land
vondrack: if it gives gold and shields enough
vondrack: yes, of course
DeepO: Sharpe, in area? yes, I think
DeepO: we have very few land, but we use it well
vondrack: well, guys, do we have any more agenda today?
vondrack: or a summary perhaps?
DeepO: I was thinking the same
DeepO: (agenda, not summary)
vondrack: I guess we talked about everything important
DeepO: true... anything else: never be afraid to ask
vondrack: I do not think so... you are quite a typist, DeepO!
Sharpe: What your iron situation like?
DeepO: I am?
vondrack: you always give out so much info
DeepO: you should have seen me before my accident
DeepO: well... these are my views...
vondrack: typing faster than anyone else
nbarclay: Our iron situation is adequate, but not overflowing.
vondrack: btw, may I ask one question?
DeepO: maybe. I suspect Nathan is faster thought
DeepO: shoot
vondrack: it may sound stupid, but...
nbarclay: Of course it will get a little better when we have Vox's iron.
vondrack: you know, we have two iron sources connected
vondrack: but only one of them shows in the resource summary???
DeepO: ?
DeepO: You mean one used only?
vondrack: and they ARE both connected to the capital
Sharpe: Oh, Vox's iron is that close?
DeepO: not very far
vondrack: well, under the iron icon in the resource box, there is
vondrack: "1"
DeepO: it's outside their borders
vondrack: instead of "2"
DeepO: and in your trade advisor?
Sharpe: hmm, a colony!?
DeepO: yep
DeepO: nice target, no?
nbarclay: Unfortunately, it has jungle protecting it from our WCs.
Sharpe: Indeed, especially with their immos - but probably heavily guarded I would imagine
DeepO: maybe... doesn't matter
DeepO: we only need to raze the closest city, or a road leading to it
nbarclay: Every unit they have guarding their iron is one they can't use on the front lines.
nbarclay: And if we cut their road.
DeepO: and still they think their superiour in strategic position, because they attacked us first...
nbarclay: Well, it's a better strategic position than they'd be in if we knew they were about to attack us.
DeepO: mystery iron
vondrack: sorry... was checking the save for that iron weirdness
DeepO: maybe you don't see it, because you can't trade it?
DeepO: do you have the same problem with dyes, if more then one is connected?
vondrack: nope, I am checking the city screens
nbarclay: Normally, Iron, 1 extra would be ghosted if you can't trade it.
Sharpe: or maybe we were using it for that turn?
vondrack: we do not have iron in the trading screen at all
DeepO: well, but not in a city view
DeepO: that's weird
vondrack: city screen show 1 iron, trade adv. none
DeepO: you're sure you have 2 sources, right?
vondrack: yep, absolutely
vondrack: just that one got connected in two "stages"
nbarclay: What happens when you open the trade screen to another civ?
DeepO: very strange, I have never seen that
vondrack: first to our road network below the jungle
DeepO: vondrack explain?
vondrack: and then when we finally built the road through the jungle
vondrack: to our capital
DeepO: that shouldn't matter
vondrack: I would think so
DeepO: I've done that with rubber on islands lots of times
DeepO: never noticed that problem
vondrack: I thought you might know if there is bug like this?
DeepO: and I was able to trade my last resource to someone else
DeepO: well, never heared of it
DeepO: but we'll ask in GS
vondrack: nevermind... just thought I'd ask
DeepO: maybe Aeson knows, he's most up to date with this kind of thing
DeepO: I'll check, and get back to you
vondrack: ok, thanks
DeepO: anything else?
vondrack: do not put too much effort into this
vondrack: you need to focus elsewhere
DeepO: np, these kind of things are fun too dig through
DeepO: true...
vondrack: I guess it is time to get some sleep now
DeepO: yeah, that's what ai was thinking too
vondrack:
Sharpe: yeah, what is it 1:20 am there?
vondrack: 0:20
DeepO: no, 0:20 for me
Sharpe: hmm only 4 hours ahead now then
DeepO: but still, heavy weekend to recuperate from
Sharpe: oops , nuts 6 hours
vondrack: ok, then, I wish everybody sweet dreams!
DeepO: bye everyone
Sharpe: Night, nice chat!
vondrack: g'night!
DeepO: I'm logging off to
DeepO: too
DeepO: see you
nbarclay: Bye everyone. It's been great chatting.
vondrack: yep, the pleasure was ours
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Mon Apr 14 00:23:06 2003

THE END.

Is there any need to comment?

[Tiberius]

Radek, our second iron (near Karina) is not whithin our cultural borders, it doesn't matter that it is roaded, it is not "ours" yet.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Radek, our second iron (near Karina) is not whithin our cultural borders, it doesn't matter that it is roaded, it is not "ours" yet.

Oops...
Quite correct!
Jesus... what a fool I am!
OTOH... that will just reinforce what they think about us!

[Tiberius]

Did you notice that Vox has poprushed many of their cities before the attack? (at least so told us the GS) I wonder what did they build, as certainly no one uses poprushes to build warriors? Maybe barracks? Upgraded veteran warriors become veteran immortals? If yes, the barracks buid would make sense.

[vondrack]

AFAIK, GS are wrong about the poprushing. BetaHound told me they poprushed once - that was because of a galley. One city is quite new (so, naturally, still at pop 1), another one might have built a settler recently (my assumption only - Voxes shall need some settlers for resettling sites they are going to raze).

The whole Vox poprushing thing is quite likely another example of how "clairvoyant" GS is...

I am trying to get hold of BetaHound today, to ask him for clarification on certain issues raised in this chat. No luck so far though... Will keep you informed.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by nbarclay
If there's time, you might want to include a bit about the world's second wonder, the Great Lighthouse just completed in the Gathering Storm city of Hurricane. (If the base of the Lighthouse looks oddly similar to the lower portion of the Pyramids, it's not a coincidence.) Lord Nathan, long-time manager of Gathering Storm's economy, was heard saying, "This Great Lighthouse will light our way to victory!"

Copied this from the public forum.

I assume the announcement is true.

A couple of thougths:

1) We beat GS to the Pyramids! (beats himself in the chest )
2) We beat them approximately by 100 shields, as their build appeared on the wonder screen only on the very last turn (they must have used the 300-shield Palace as a prebuild). They have decided to scrap their wonder build after crossing the 300 shield level, as the build was displayed as The Great Library build on our last turn. They must have changed it to a cheaper wonder (for whatever reason) this turn, wasting some shields...
3) We shall expect being pushed into a dilemma once Voxes take out GS iron, being pressured to provide our iron to GS.
4) GS may be less self-confident than they appear to pose.

I will explain my last two points:

a) GS must have been slightly below 300 accumulated shields when our Pyramids were finished (their build never appeared on the F7-wonder screen before).
b) with the war coming, they decided they were in no position to keep (one of) their most productive city(ies) building a wonder -> thus the switch, making Hurricane available for military production.
c) the following wonders were readily available:
ca) Colossus, 200S - probably seemed to be too much of a shield waste to GS, even though the wonder would be paying back the investment in the form of increased commerce
cb) Great Wall, 200S - same problem, just that this wonder would make their walled cities better protected from the Voxian attacks (I do not expect GS to have too many walled cities, however)
cc) Great Library, 400S - would keep their high-shield city busy for few more turns, would put a bullseye on them, would gain them a little, as we are planning to receive Education in about 20-30 turns - most they could hope for would be getting Engineering, maybe Chivalry & Invention. Shield waste + too much risk.
cd) Oracle, 300S - total waste of shields, as GS has no temples -> zero effect.
ce) Hanging Gardens, 300S - not available, as RPers haven't traded Monarchy to anyone yet.
cf) Great Lighthouse, 300S - increases vessel movement by 1, allows trade over sea tiles (at least IIRC).

Now, the question is: why did GS favor the Great Lighthouse over the Great Wall (building walls would need very little time and bring extra defense against Voxes) or Colossus (extra commerce)? The waste of shields was quite likely not the most important reason, as the shields were more or less wasted anyway, the primary and only goal being Pyramids... There are two reasons I can think of:

I) they want to be the only ones capable of trading with us NOW (or until Astronomy). In case they lose "their" iron (which they apparantly consider likely), they want to be able to get iron from us. This is why I would expect them to start pressuring us for building at least one harbour soon.

II) they plan a surprise seaborne counterattack against Voxes, making good use of their newly acquired ability to sail safely through sea tiles.

Just thought I would point this out and ask if someone can think of another reason...

Either way, we have now one more reason to celebrate - our successful effort with Pyramids and the war with Voxes forced GS to basically waste 300+ shields on a pretty much useless wonder, which I am sure effectively more than balances any advantages GS might have gained over us by using their resources in the most effective way from the very beginning.

Plus, our little wonder switching trick (Palace-wonder-Palace-wonder) worked 1000% better than I would have ever expected!