Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Sharpe]

I think our true objective is for the winner of the Vox-GS war to be on OUR side. Although Vox has been friendly to us, that might not continue in the long-run. I could live with either Vox or GS winning as clearly both of them seem interested in maintaining a good relationship with us (makes sense given both sides anti-Bob sentiments).

It does appear that RP's lusting for our map was a foreshadowing of their lusting for our territory.

With the possible threat from RP and other possible threat from the GoW-ND alliance, we had better try hard to get GoW away from ND and certainly avoid a unified Bob alliance (now all 3 Bob civs might be thinking about attacking us now).

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
I think our true objective is for the winner of the Vox-GS war to be on OUR side. Although Vox has been friendly to us, that might not continue in the long-run. I could live with either Vox or GS winning as clearly both of them seem interested in maintaining a good relationship with us (makes sense given both sides anti-Bob sentiments).

Respectfully, I must disagree. At least as I perceive and approach the situation, our objective now is to do our best to help Voxes win their war, either eliminating or seriously damaging Gathering Storm. The reason is very simple: while Voxes pose and shall pose little threat to us economically (as recovering from the war, even if from a victorious one, will undoubtedly take them some time, which we will spend peacefully developing, further increasing our lead), Gathering Storm would be an extremely strong opponent, if allowed to develop freely.

Also, I have not noticed Gathering Storm would be interested in "maintaining a good relationship with us" - unless you consider the relationship between the GS-master and Lego-servant/slave a good one. Have we ever been offered a fair deal from their side? I am quite sure we were not. And I am not even mentioning their arrogant behaviour. What good would be if they win the war and "be on our side"? Would we have a reason to hope for better deals than those we've been offered so far?

I do not think we should make our involvement publicly known, as we have little to gain from openly admitting we are siding with Voxes, but I do not want to just sit and wait until Vox or GS start winning clearly - I seriously believe we should actively (even if secretly) support Vox Controli in their war against GS.

[Sharpe]

Respectfully, I disagree. All I am saying is don't put all your Estonian eggs in the Vox basket.

If Vox is destroyed or even does not make much or any headway with GS, then we will need a bigger ally than Vox, especially if RP or GoW/NeuD do attack us.

Don't write off any possible friendship with GS - their attempt to rip us off has been mild compared to our relations with RP and ND - and a possible betrayal by GoW.

If we support Vox too much and they lose, it is almost certain that GS will become an enemy - and we are rapidly losing potential friends...

Plus no matter how strong we are, we will have difficulty repelling an invasion by 2 or more Human civs. An reliable and relatively strong ally is needed. Unless they defeat GS or gain most of their territory, right now Vox isn't that yet.

Btw, why was Vox stupid enough to trade their map so that GS could see it before Vox attacked ?

[Tiberius]

I think there's no need to find excuses in the response to the GS proposal, nor to lye ... too much . I'd tell them that we are not interested in Feudalism, we want a package deal on Feud+Chivalry but only later, when both Chivalry and our Theology will be closer. We should also mention that we don't have that much money like we would hoped so, because we were unable to trade C&C with the RPs, because some other teams who shouldn't have to (Vox) did it. We are still pissed off because of this trade and we should let them guess this. Maybe this will make them behave in a little more civilized manner in their trade proposals and agreements.

We should also honestly thank them for the info update on Bob (this time it's really valuable; if it's true, that is).

As for our involvement: IMHO we should help Vox, because the more headache they can cause to the GS the better. The GS is a much bigger threat in the long run. I would go so far as gifting them money.
GS may be arrogant but not stupid. Even if they will win this war and find out that we have helped Vox, they will prefer to work with us rather than GoW, ND or RPs, who are a much bigger threat for them in the short run. It's like the Vox war: they were furious at them in the beginning, but after a few rants they admit it now that it was Vox's best (only?) chance to sneak-attack the GS and they even admire the way in which Vox tricked them.

About Bob: we know we can trust no one, so we must keep our eyes open and try to prevent a unified Bob. Probably GoW will backstab us sooner or later (like any other team) but let them depend on us until then (good tech deals) and try to make them our ally for now. GF said it many times: they see us as their best partner, with us researching and them fighting.

Btw, when do we want to trigger our GA? Maybe during the 2 or 3 wonder building period? We want Sistine, Bach's and probably one more. We could make this GA triggering a part of a tech deal with GoW.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Respectfully, I disagree. All I am saying is don't put all your Estonian eggs in the Vox basket.

I do not think I suggest putting "all Estonian eggs in the Vox basket". We would be doing that by publicly expressing our support to Voxes. By not helping GS and secretly helping Voxes, we are making our best to ensure our "investment" yields interest eventually, while still leaving the backdoor open for the unlikely case Voxes fail badly.

If Vox is destroyed or even does not make much or any headway with GS, then we will need a bigger ally than Vox, especially if RP or GoW/NeuD do attack us.

Like if 37 immortals does not make much or any headway with GS?

Plus, what makes you believe GS would help us, if a Bobian civ or civs invaded Legos? All GS have showed interest in so far has been making lopsided tech deals...

Don't write off any possible friendship with GS - their attempt to rip us off has been mild compared to our relations with RP and ND - and a possible betrayal by GoW.

I agree that RPers are even worse... but I do not see what is wrong with our relations with ND? We made no deals, they did nothing to us, we did nothing to them - that is certainly way better than what GS tried upon us with the infamous C+C deal.

And to make your point complete, we should also not write off a possible betrayal by GS... after all, we'd be their biggest economic competitor, so sooner or later, it would be in their interest to at least indirectly do harm to us.

GS clearly demonstrated they are not interested in any true friendship with Legoland. If they were they would have proposed a fair deal. Instead, they were determined to rip us off until the very last moment - if it was not us taking care of things, we'd now be like 280g poorer... and them richer. I do not care for such "friends" or "allies". Plus, they are a nuisance to deal with.

If we support Vox too much and they lose, it is almost certain that GS will become an enemy - and we are rapidly losing potential friends...

First: I have clearly said we have nothing to gain by PUBLICLY supporting Voxes. I'm all for doing it secretly, so even if they lost, GS would be unlikely to ever learn about the true extent of our involvement (especially as they seem to be less than excited about accepting potential Vox players into their ranks). That is exactly why I am trying to think up credible "reasons preventing us from trading for Feu at the moment", instead of just telling GS "sorry, not interested".

Second, what leads you to state "we are rapidly losing potential friends"??? RPers were never our real friends, so we could have hardly "lost" them as a potential friend... and even if you wish to look at it in this way, then it was them making sure we're not allies now. GoW is on the best terms with us - I have not noticed a slightest sign of hostility from their side. They are 100% fair in dealing with us. And if you mean that they may atack us some time in the future... well, applying this kind of logic would mean we never had, do not have, and will never have any friends - this game is about one team winning. Means even your best friend will have to turn against you, if you are the last two teams standing. And as I said before - our relations with ND are simply non-existent. There are none. They never were our friends and it is quite difficult to say what their attitude towards us is.

So, please, explain - what do you mean by stating "we are rapidly losing potential friends"? And maybe even more importantly - applying the same kind of logic, which teams are in a different situation?

RPers certainly have no friends at all, mostly because of their dishonest conduct of foreign affairs - have to fear ND & GoW because of their geographic location. Have barely acceptable relations with us, GS, and Voxes. No friends anywhere I look.

ND have to fear GoW & RPers because of being sandwiched between them on Bob... and have basically no relations worth mentioning with us and Estonians.

GoW have to fear ND & RPers because of sharing a continent with them; currently side with Voxes against GS. Very good relations with us & Voxes ATM (same as us). As many "friends" as we have.

And Voxes...? Do they have more friends than we have?

Explain, please...

Plus no matter how strong we are, we will have difficulty repelling an invasion by 2 or more Human civs. An reliable and relatively strong ally is needed. Unless they defeat GS or gain most of their territory, right now Vox isn't that yet.

Errrmmm... like we would happily let Voxes side with our enemies in a potential conflict? With their 37 immortals? This kind of military is capable of destroying or at least very seriously damaging ANY team in this game at the moment. They have more immortals then we have ALL units together, including workers! I suspect they have close to 2 immos per every military unit of ours - and our military is on par with everybody else, but RPers... Is that not a strong ally? Besides, if GS wins in the end, why should they become our "reliable and relatively strong ally"? I will repeat that again: I have seen no indication of GS wanting to be our ally. I did notice their attempt to make us their b|tch, though.

Btw, why was Vox stupid enough to trade their map so that GS could see it before Vox attacked ?

Stupid??? Why was that stupid? Voxes sold their world map to GS just before launching their invasion. It was a ruse - and a very good one, IMHO. IIRC, they got 100 gold for it - that is 2.5 less swordsman upgrade for GS and 2.5 more immortal upgrade for Voxes. Altogether a difference of 5 upgraded units. I definitely don't think it was stupid... if GS - despite all the Voxian immortals pouring into their lands - successfully counterattack as far as getting onto the Vox territory, Voxes will be losing badly anyway, so GS having their map will not really matter that much...

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
I think there's no need to find excuses in the response to the GS proposal, nor to lye ... too much . I'd tell them that we are not interested in Feudalism, we want a package deal on Feud+Chivalry but only later, when both Chivalry and our Theology will be closer. We should also mention that we don't have that much money like we would hoped so, because we were unable to trade C&C with the RPs, because some other teams who shouldn't have to (Vox) did it. We are still pissed off because of this trade and we should let them guess this. Maybe this will make them behave in a little more civilized manner in their trade proposals and agreements.

Yep, agreed. Seems that we are gradually getting to agree that we should pose as being low on cash, not interested in trading for Feudalims alone, wishing to postpone arranging trades until Chivalry and Theology become available.

Btw, when do we want to trigger our GA? Maybe during the 2 or 3 wonder building period? We want Sistine, Bach's and probably one more. We could make this GA triggering a part of a tech deal with GoW.

I believe we should time it so that we have all of Legos Major settled and cities at or close to pop 6, so that we make the most out of it. Arranging a deal with another team is one possibility, building, say, Colossus is another (a cheap wonder that brings nice money - and we have two cities capable of building it pretty quickly, especially Panama would be a fine place to build it in, due to being situated on a river, thus able to grow up to pop 12 without an aqueduct).

[Tiberius]

Yep, that's a good idea and Panama would a good site for the Collossus. Imagine its commerce output after building it
I think we should start building it immediately after switching to Republic, while preparing 2 other cities for the other wonder projects. That would allow us to accelerate our development at the end of the Medieval era, which would be a perfect timing.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Yep, that's a good idea and Panama would a good site for the Collossus. Imagine its commerce output after building it
I think we should start building it immediately after switching to Republic, while preparing 2 other cities for the other wonder projects. That would allow us to accelerate our development at the end of the Medieval era, which would be a perfect timing.

I would consider building Colossus in Panama after we have the basic infrastructure in place there (i.e. Temple, Library, Marketplace, perhaps maybe even Cathedral - to allow it to operate at up to pop 9). The build attempt should be relatively safe, as we'd be able to switch to a University, should someone else beat us to it.

Another thing we should consider is that we should have the FP built in Karina before triggering our GA. That will make a HUGE difference in the effect of the GA on our Southern provinces.

[vondrack]

OK, considering the responses so far, here goes my attempt on a draft of our message to GS... let's start discussing the precise wording. We shall dispatch it tomorrow morning at latest - leaving this stuff for the chat tomorrow evening would be dangerous... with them asking questions, something might slip and weaken our negotiating position and/or credibility. We better make it clear what our stance is ATM before the chat and then just have a talk about "future possibilities".

Dear DeepO,

As promised yesterday, here is at least a quick update on the situation Lego is in ATM and on the Feudalism deal proposal you've presented.

To our disappointment, our deals on Currency and Construction went only so-so, despite Construction being our exclusive at the time (and Currency, too, at least for few turns). We were only able to trade C+C to two other teams... RPers even going as far as getting the techs from an illegal source . And as if that was not enough, the barbarian uprisings spawned after the world went medieval had some unplanned for consequences for us...

The fact is that paying 200 gold for a technology that brings no immediate benefit to us (our Mercenaries are better than Pikemen + we are not planning to attempt building Sun Tzu's) does not sound right. Even slowing down our full speed research of Theology in order to set 12gpt aside for you seems hardly justified. Let's wait a couple of turns until Chivalry and Theology are available for trade (we are a little bit over 10 turns from discovering Theology ATM) and get back to the issue then.

As for the rest of information - thanks for keeping us updated. Especially the information about RPers is quite worrying, as they pose to be our best friends all the time... dunno what to think of that...

Looking forward to our Sunday chat!
Radek aka vondrack

Well, the only lie is that "Looking forward to our Sunday chat" part..

Otherwise, everything is plain true...

[vondrack]

I have had an interesting argument with Tibi in the chatroom. Instead of summing it up, I will include it in its entirety (almost - chitchat edited out):

* Tiberius has joined #Legoland
Tiberius: Hi!
Tiberius: I wanted to comment the GS PM
vondrack: yes?
Tiberius: I'd trim completely the barb part
Tiberius: It's enough to say that we don't want to spend so much money on a tech that doesn't interest us too much
Tiberius: why should we lie about barbarians sacking us?
vondrack: well, we do not say they sacked us - we say their uprising had unplanned for consequences, which is 100% true - we had to delay Logville
Tiberius: yes, sort of. but what's the point?
Tiberius: there's no need to find excuses and justifications
vondrack: well, just saying we do not want to spend that much money on the tech may get us into troubles
vondrack: what if GS lowers itself enough to ask for a financial aid?
vondrack: if we make it seem like we do not HAVE the money, we are avoiding the problem in advance
Tiberius: Hmm
vondrack: we should make our (pretended) position as bulletproof as possible - any manoeuvring later on will rise suspicions
vondrack: let's think up one story and stick to it, no matter what
Tiberius: the C&C thing is good
Tiberius: But that barb story is still dangerous and hard to believe
Tiberius: I wouldn't believe it
vondrack: not hard to believe at all
vondrack: imagine 8 horsies attacking a city with 1 warrior
vondrack: first five horsies manage to kill the warrior
vondrack: remaining three sack
vondrack: 150 gold gone - easily
Tiberius: but that's still a lie
vondrack: as GS like to garrison their cities with warriors only (look at ISDG), it will not sound hard to believe
vondrack: but we are not going to tell them
vondrack: and even if
Tiberius: they might ask in the chat
vondrack: this would be a lie they would NEVER be able to catch us in
vondrack: nobody can confirm/deny that
Tiberius: they don't know how many gold we have
Tiberius: how much
vondrack: that's right
Tiberius: so, why should we try to explain why we don't have enough to pay for Feud?
Tiberius: let's just say that we don't have enough to grant loans and buy techs
Tiberius: how much is "enough", that depends on our plans and politics
Tiberius: they must not know that
vondrack: that's a lie, too
vondrack: as much as the barb hint
Tiberius: which one?
vondrack: that we do not have money enough
vondrack: we have almost 500 gold
Tiberius: "enough" is very relative
vondrack: I mean - I agree that giving too many reasons would be bad, but giving two (one of them 100% true, the other one unconfirmable) should be just fine
Tiberius: my problem is, giving reasons why we don't have money is suspicios
Tiberius: we don't have and don't want to spend it. period
Tiberius:
vondrack: but that is like clearly saying "we do not want to help you"
vondrack: period
vondrack: that's unfriendly
Tiberius: still better than saying "**** you"
vondrack: slightly, yes
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: better pretend "we are unable to help you"
vondrack: if we are able to come up with credible reasons...
Tiberius: OK, then keep the reasons for the chat, IMHO
vondrack: now that is very dangerous
vondrack: while we have hours to ponder about the message
vondrack: you have less than minutes to react in a chat
vondrack: you choose a wrong course
vondrack: and it starts moving the wrong way
Tiberius: do you think that once put in the PM that we don't have enough money, they won't ask details in the chat?
vondrack: oh yes, they will ask, but we stick to the story
vondrack: C+C part is 100% true
Tiberius: indeed
vondrack: and if they directly ask about the barb part, we will lie
vondrack: no way to catch us
vondrack: keep in mind that GS may know how much money we got from GoW (or RPers)
vondrack: not likely, but it is always a possibility
Tiberius: We could tell them that we Mono was expensive
vondrack: bad idea, they will ask why we got it from somewhere else
vondrack: when they offered it to us
Tiberius: their offer was very vague
vondrack: but they were willing to give it right away leaving details "for later"
vondrack: if Mono was to be expensive for us
vondrack: it would make sense to at least contact them first
Tiberius: anyway, if they know anout our deals, they will know we can't lose 500 gold to barbs
vondrack: no, no
vondrack: they are able to know about some of them only
vondrack: GoW
vondrack: and that is it
Tiberius: 250 from GoW
vondrack: 80 from them
Tiberius: 330 already, plus the inevitable savings
vondrack: nobody knows what we had to pay for the tech catchup deal
Tiberius: maybe they know about Monarchy, too
vondrack: I do not believe so, RPers have no reason to tell them
vondrack: and even if, that would be another reason to use the barb trick
vondrack: the amount of money you lose to barbs
vondrack: is proportional to how much you have in your treasury
vondrack: the more you have, the more you lose
vondrack: we have to choose what kind of story we are going to stick to
vondrack: that's actually what we are discussing over this draft

I would like to stress the very last part... with this message, we shall choose our "version" of the truth. One that we shall stick to, no matter what. It shall be bulletproof enough to allow us to politely turn down GS requests for financial help (in any form) w/o telling them "we do not want to help you" - but rather insisting on "we are not able to help you". In case Voxes do not eliminate GS completely or even lose eventually, that should make it easier to cooperate with GS after the war is over.

As for the barb thing: I have no problem to use a plain lie as long as there is no way to find out we lied. The barb trick is perfectly safe, as nobody can actually know if something happened... I would go as far as creating an "official version" of what happened - just in case they ask curious questions:

...you know, we planned to found a new city down there, right next to a mouth of a river. Beatiful location. When the settler, escorted by one of our early warriors, arrived at the city site, he found himself standing right next to a barb camp. The timing seemed to be tight, but ok - we found the city one turn before everybody else in the world receiving C+C from us, dispersing the camp, supposedly preventing the uprising to spawn from it. What we didn't know was that the very moment we "accepted" the C+C trade with you (happened right after loading the turn), barb camps received their doses of bad horsies. And we just watched in horror how all of them (+ the warrior-sucker ...) attacked our new city. Our warrior fought bravely, but was overwhelmed eventually. Three raiders paid a visit...

Now this is what almost happened. We were one turn from having this happening at the Logville site - if we arrived there just one turn earlier and I failed to notice the horse stack appearing in the camp, this would be exactly the course of events...

Everybody, add your comments, please, this is important. The story we think up now is to be followed for the next 10-20 turns... most probably throughout the whole GS-Vox war.

[Sharpe]

Radek, I love how you want me to explain everything in detail; however, when it comes to your policies - you don't explain much...

I don't have to justify anything more to you - I have clearly stated my view - you ARE putting all our eggs in a Vox victory, while I am cautioning us to wait and see - play off both sides and then support more the potential winner if things become more clear. Even a partial Vox victory is by no means certain...

Vox DOES NOT have 37 immos now - they have said that right now they have 12-15 IIRC. If both of Vox's and GS's images are to be believed, both an immortal and a war chariot have won victories meaning both are in the Golden ages. (and Vox lost one of their immortals)

GS likely has a lot more cities right now than Vox perhaps nearly twice as many if the score is to be believed - and will due to their economic strength plus their golden age will be able to outproduce Vox by some margin over the next 20 turns. Plus GS has the advantages of roads while Vox's slower units with no roads might give GS more of an edge on defense - plus Vox has to get those extra immos down there - that will probably take some time. Plus GS probably has a few chariots which have the mobility edge over Vox.

I can easily foresee GS losing a few cities in the initial Vox attack especially as they are possibly defended by warriors - but it is possible that they might take them back - however, admittedly Vox is targeting the GS core cities including their capital which would severely hurt most civs. If GS does take back their core cities, Vox may be in trouble although GS would be severely damaged due to those losses. Don't forget that GS will have or has feudalism soon - and the immos will take a ton of damage vs pikes if they can upgrade to them in time.

My view is that we should support Vox by ONLY trading gold if we get their map to start and to try to do the same thing to GS. That way we might have all of the maps of the civs (though it is unlikely that GS will trade the map without ours at the moment).

That "barb" story is a complete lie which won't be believed - so we lost a few turns in settling two of our cities - big deal - we didn't come even close to losing any of our units either... go with saying that our gold resources are limited due to needed upgrades and other matters - THAT is the truth - we will need more gold to upgrade our units, to support our units when we reach Republic and to possibly gold rush some items.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Radek, I love how you want me to explain everything in detail; however, when it comes to your policies - you don't explain much...

I do not explain much???
OK, will try to fix that...

I don't have to justify anything more to you - I have clearly stated my view - you ARE putting all our eggs in a Vox victory, while I am cautioning us to wait and see - play off both sides and then support more the potential winner if things become more clear. Even a partial Vox victory is by no means certain...

You seem to miss the fact that my topmost priority right now is to find a way to keep our relations with GS fine... while not improving their chances to successfully defend against Voxes even a smallest bit.

As far as actually providing aid to both warring parties... it is like betting equally on both colours in roulette... you undoubtedly win... with one bet. But you undoubtedly lose the other. This war will most probably end with one team being eliminated. Whatever we invest into the loser, will be gone. Getting GS map? You admit it is very unlikely they'd be willing to trade for it (even a request to do so would most probably be taken as an offense... if not as a sign of us trying to get vital intel from them). Getting Feudalism & Chivalry? When we almost have a deal with GoW, which is a much more important trading partner for us, due to their proximity to our homeland?

I will state my view clearly, too, now - I do NOT want us to play both sides actually. I want us to help Voxes, even if not declaring our support publicly. I want us to do things in such a way that GS has no clue we are against them, but that's it. And I feel very strongly about it.

If Voxes eliminate GS (especially if our aid affects the outcome of the war by more than a little bit), we benefit greatly, losing our main economic competitor (plus, possibly gaining one grateful ally). OTOH, if GS eliminate Voxes, we gain absolutely nothing - even if we actually provide substantial aid to GS, they would never admit it was us helping them survive - just read their messages to us. GS is "the" elite team... they are perfectly able to handle any kind of threat, they can do it on their own, they have no problem with money etc. etc.

Vox DOES NOT have 37 immos now - they have said that right now they have 12-15 IIRC. If both of Vox's and GS's images are to be believed, both an immortal and a war chariot have won victories meaning both are in the Golden ages. (and Vox lost one of their immortals)

Not true. See my post here. Quoting (that was 2 turns ago):

Originally posted by vondrack
1) Voxes currently have 15 immos. 7 more warriors will be upgraded within 2 turns. 15 more warriors shall be built within the next 5 turns - all of them to be upgraded to immos (they have a smart road network setup allowing them to build warriors in all their cities but one, upgrading them to immos with just a little delay in that last city that is barracked - as the only one - connected to iron). That is 37 immortals altogether within 7 turns from now.

That is 22 immos (21, as one died) within 5 turns from now. Plus: GS may have its iron either connected or not. If not, they are not able to build swords or pikes -> having to fight immos with war chariots & spears. Lost case. Period. Or they have it connected - in which case they have to build swords and pikes, which are more expensive. That effectively eliminates their economic superiority. Voxes need 10 shields and gold to field one immortal. GS needs at least 20 shields to field a unit worth mentioning (War Chariot), but much more likely 30 shields (for Swords & Pikes). That effectively eliminates their economic superiority. Plus, the war is being fought on the GS' soil - Voxes will pillage, cut roadlinks (imagine Voxes cut GS iron & horses! game effectively over) and otherwise damage GS infrastructure, while not having the same problem in their own territory.

I am not saying Voxes must win. We do not know what GS is able to squeeze out of their economy. But I am quite sure their chances of winning are fine. At least 50:50. So whatever we do to help them, tips the scales in their favour.

GS likely has a lot more cities right now than Vox perhaps nearly twice as many if the score is to be believed - and will due to their economic strength plus their golden age will be able to outproduce Vox by some margin over the next 20 turns. Plus GS has the advantages of roads while Vox's slower units with no roads might give GS more of an edge on defense - plus Vox has to get those extra immos down there - that will probably take some time. Plus GS probably has a few chariots which have the mobility edge over Vox.

As mentioned before - GS economic strength is severely offset by the fact they are forced to build more expensive units. Since their military is weak compared to ours, while they appear to have more cities than we do, they are likely to be stretched quite thin militarily. Just look at how weak our defenses are in the South. One unit per city at most. The advantage of roads will not last forever - all it takes to cut a link is one spear and one turn time. War Chariots attacking immos have less than 50% chance of winning (A2 vs. D2+defense modifier). Even if they retreat, they are toast, as the counterattack is A4 vs. D1+defense modifier.

And you quite correctly point out that GS core is under immediate threat - imagine us (with all our cities) losing just 3 cities: Legopolis, Panama, Jackson. Game over for us. With tighter spacing, GS probably have more than 3 useful core cities, but still... taking out 5 key production centres will be as good as knocking GS down completely.

I can easily foresee GS losing a few cities in the initial Vox attack especially as they are possibly defended by warriors - but it is possible that they might take them back - however, admittedly Vox is targeting the GS core cities including their capital which would severely hurt most civs. If GS does take back their core cities, Vox may be in trouble although GS would be severely damaged due to those losses. Don't forget that GS will have or has feudalism soon - and the immos will take a ton of damage vs pikes if they can upgrade to them in time.

Spears can be upgraded to Pikes only if being in a city with barracks, connected to iron. How many barracked cities you think GS have? Spears moving along roads are great targets for immos (and if the cities are close to each other, then immos will need less time to reach 'em). Also, Pikes are fine defenders, but woefully poor attackers - if GS spend their resources on Pikes, they will effectively allow Voxes to roam freely around their territory. Which means terrible damage to their infrastructure. And I am not mentioning the fact that GS iron is Voxes' primary target - cutting it is the first thing they will focus on. Plus, GoW is supposed to throw in some horsemen right after getting Feudalism from GS.

My view is that we should support Vox by ONLY trading gold if we get their map to start and to try to do the same thing to GS. That way we might have all of the maps of the civs (though it is unlikely that GS will trade the map without ours at the moment).

I do not oppose the idea of asking the Voxian map in return for more funds. That is perfectly justified and fair. However, I do oppose any kind of deal that would help GS in any way. The value of their map to us is totally negligible compared to the possibility of having them leave the game.

That "barb" story is a complete lie which won't be believed - so we lost a few turns in settling two of our cities - big deal - we didn't come even close to losing any of our units either... go with saying that our gold resources are limited due to needed upgrades and other matters - THAT is the truth - we will need more gold to upgrade our units, to support our units when we reach Republic and to possibly gold rush some items.

I do not say it is not a lie. Yes, it is a pure lie (the full story, I mean - the statement we had some unplanned for troubles with barbs is 100% true). But I do not know why they should disbelieve it. Founding a new city and garrisoning it with one warrior is perfectly justifiable on a continent where the only threat comes from barbs. A stack of 8 barb horses is perfectly capable of defeating a regular warrior fortified on flat land. And as explained earlier, the situation almost happened in Logville.

Do not get me wrong - if the majority of the team says we shall not play the barb card, we won't. Just that our position will be a bit more difficult then, IMHO, as we will be saying "well, we know you need help, but our own needs - however insignificant they are compared to your own struggle for survival - are more important for us" in a more obvious way than if blaming low treasury on a barb raid).

I will include a summary here, to make my stance very clear:

1) I want us to support Voxes ONLY.
2) I don't want GS to get a clue we support Voxes.
3) I consider the possibility of elimination of our primary economic rival worth a very significant bet.
4) I do not believe we can gain anything by supporting GS.
5) I believe chances of Voxes winning this war are pretty good. At least as good as those of GS (better, IMHO).

Howgh.

P.S.: I am still curious what you meant by stating "we are rapidly losing potential friends".

[Sharpe]

What I meant by "we are rapidly losing potential friends" is this:

RP is a lost cause - they are clearly closer to being our enemy than a friend now - GS has indicated that they are talking about attacking us

GoW may be friendly now - but Vox has indicated that they do plan on attacking us eventually

ND may be silent right now - but their establishment of an embassy plus the strong indications of a GoW - ND alliance would also indicate potential hostility towards us

Vox is a friend - although they really haven't done much for us - so it has been mostly a one-sided friendship

GS is regarded by you as a rival and we aren't supporting them in the war - if they survive we probably won't be counted as a friend of theirs

Not many "friends" left - those that have been friendly eventually try to swindle us. The comments from GS and Vox admittedly may be untrue, but they sound like they have a distinct likelihood of being true.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
RP is a lost cause - they are clearly closer to being our enemy than a friend now - GS has indicated that they are talking about attacking us

Correct. Though I do not see what could have been done differently to prevent this.

Vox is a friend - although they really haven't done much for us - so it has been mostly a one-sided friendship

This is not quite correct though. It was actually Voxes who made the whole C+C/Rep/Mono deal possible by trading Monotheism to us directly. The deal was fine for them and fine for us, since we gained upper hand over GS in our own deal. If Voxes did not help, we would end up being ripped off by GS... having to pay lots of gold for Monotheism, getting it at least a bit later.

Not many "friends" left - those that have been friendly eventually try to swindle us. The comments from GS and Vox admittedly may be untrue, but they sound like they have a distinct likelihood of being true.

OK and now try doing the same summary for any other team... will it be any different? If not, then what's the point? By the very nature of this game, all "friendships" are temporary. We seem to have at least two teams friendly to us ATM, two others not hostile, and RPers... that's pretty good, isn't it?

[Tiberius]

I mostly agree with Vondrack in this debate
Let's see:

1) I want us to support Voxes ONLY.
2) I don't want GS to get a clue we support Voxes.
3) I consider the possibility of elimination of our primary economic rival worth a very significant bet.
4) I do not believe we can gain anything by supporting GS.
5) I believe chances of Voxes winning this war are pretty good. At least as good as those of GS (better, IMHO).

1) Bying their WM would be a good idea.
2) Obviously
3) Exactly
4) Absolutely
5) I agree.

Especially 3 and 4 are important, IMHO. GS is just like the RP. They never wanted a real alliance. All they want from a "friend" is helping them in their grand plan; we were able to see this very well in the C&C trade mess. We wouldn't win anything by supporting them.
Even if the GS would wins, what are we losing? The friendship of GS? That never existed.

I understand your concers Sharpe, but really saying that we are rapidly losing friends doens't have any basis nor does it have relevance in this debate (nor can you blame Radek for it). GS, ND or RP were never our friends. Neither was Vox, until now (they still aren't, but can be if we help them now). We know GoW is opportunistic, this is why we're trying to keep them on our side as long as possible. ND could be an enemy or an ally, it depends. I think that with a proper approach they could be a trustworthy partner, at least.
So who else should we try to make our "friends"? RP? GS? I'm sorry, but I'd rather have them enemies than allies. At least an enemy can't backstab you.

Finally, I'm strongly against any action that would help GS, especially after the treatment they applied to us in their trade offers. I don't want to give them a cent, but I'd prefer not to lie. (hence the "mostly agree" with Radek ). Saying that we don't have "enough" money is enough and true. We want to change to Republic soon and we need all the gold for rushes and upgrades. Besides we never know when will we need to pay some GoW mercenaries to defend us against the RP, for example. If they can't accept a simple NO and some decent explanations (see above) and they will be pushing a loan idea in the chat, I'd blame the C&C deal and that should shut their mouthes up.