Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[redstar1]

Just a note to DeepO regarding the recent trades


DeepO,

Seems our trades went to plan, great stuff! Nice doing business with you. Hope we can deal a lot more in the future. Not sure there is anything urgent to discuss so unless you can think of anything then I guess the sunday night chat is the best time to catch up.

Oh, we got a good deal on Mono from another source so no need to worry ourselves on that one!

Regards

Redstar1

[redstar1]

i made a mistake and sent the message above, rather than the amended one....no harm done though..

RE: Greetings, trade buddies!
Hi redstar1,

Nice to know there were no problems, let's hope this trend continues

As to Monotheism: from one side I'm happy, as it will make deals probably easier to strike. OTOH, though, it would have been nice if you mentioned this in chat, just between friends. It would have made us focus more on striking a deal right then (if this was your intention, of course). But it's okay, the sooner you get it, the better.

See you next Sunday (possibly before then too )

DeepO

[redstar1]

Msg from DeepO

Feudalism proposal
Dear redstar1, vondrack, and quantum_mechani,

I was going to mention this in chat tomorrow, but it may be better to offer this now, so you can discuss this proposal amongst yourselves first. Debate tomorrow will only get more focussed

We're currently, as agreed, on our way towards Feudalism. However, it seems the rest of the world, including you, is not really up to speed yet, too many issues need attention, and research is nobody's priority, it seems. We understand that defense can be more important, however as we're not so pressed, maybe we can speed up things a little on the research side of things.

There has been a bit of talk on offering feudalism to everybody in the world at the same time, and quite soon too. Maybe we can after that fit in another tech, and end at about the same moment other teams get the tech they are currently going for. In your case, it would seem best to us that we deal with this tech separately from another one: by the time you get Theology, we would have, or be very close to discovering Chivalry.

So, our proposal:
We offer you Feudalism for 200 gold, or a 12 gpt 'loan' for 20 turns. It comes with an NDA, in that you are not allowed to trade it to any other team for 10 turns after receiving it. Further, we will guarantee that at the moment of offering, we will be the only team with access to the technology, and nobody else will be able to research it independently, and thus sell it to you, for at least 5 more turns.

I hope you like these terms, they are quite fair in our eyes. We can discuss other options of payment, but the price will be fixed, it could however be transformed in other tradeable stuff

Re: long term tech deal: I've got quite a few ideas on that, but haven't found any time this week to put them on paper. I would be thrilled to discuss them, and see your view on it. But let's keep it for the chat

And one point of advice: don't stay in despotism too long, the sooner you get to republic, the better. Settlers and other units can be rushed easily with the extra cash it generates, if that is your concern.

DeepO

[vondrack]

Hmmm... aside from how much I hate when someone fatherly "advices" us in this way (plus says "there will be no bargaining"), I certainly see no need to rush this deal...

We have absolutely no need for Feudalism alone, as it gives us nothing we would need - Mercs are better than Pikemen anyway and we do not intend to build Sun Tzu's. What we will want is Chivalry... so I would wait and see how things develop... we may easily be able to get Feudalism from someone else, after the 10 turn no-whore period is over...

I say: no hurry.

[Sharpe]

Hmm, sounds to me like they are trying to act like the "top dog" in our relationship. Well, I agree with Vondrack, let's see what other offers are out there for Feudalism (almost certain GoW is researching it), and I agree Chivalry is more a priority.

As for them researching both Feudalism and Chivalry before we get Theology, I frankly doubt it as we are 18 turns from it - even if we had the max 8 turns of anarchy I still wonder whether they can research each tech in 14 or so turns (28 total).

[Kloreep]

I agree, wait.

And I also doubt they'll be able to research both before us. If they're borging as I think they are, they probably do have some more base commerce, but their shrinking culture shows that they're library-less, and we'll be building two soon. We could be well on the way to our next tech by the time they complete Chivalry.

[lmtoops]

I don't like the tone of the message, at all. Does DeepO really think his team is that superior. Does he really think that we don't know Republic is better than Depotism? Does he really think that his team is the only team that will have Feudalism; that we have no choice, but to accept is great offer.

This guy (and probably the whole team) is so full of himself. Let's not accept this trade at all.

[vondrack]

And the regular Sunday chat with GS (I missed this one - posting the log Nimitz made):

Session Start: Sun Apr 06 15:42:07 2003
Session Ident: #milkshake
* Now talking in #milkshake
* Topic is 'Lego - GS chat'
* Set by DeepO on Sun Apr 06 15:09:35
DeepO: hi!
redstar1: hey nimitz
Nimitz: hello
DeepO: quick recap
redstar1: i have to go afk but i'll keep a lookout and a log:
Nimitz: ok
DeepO: okay
DeepO: so, recap
DeepO: I was asking on the deal we send you
DeepO: on feud
DeepO: and mentioning that the way we get paid is not an issue to us
Nimitz: just a sec got a PM to check
DeepO: so, if you would rather have a combined chivalry + feud - theo + gold deal, np
DeepO: okay
DeepO: I'll type a little
DeepO: the thing is, we too are at crossroads in the game
DeepO: we have a great opportunity here, but we are uncertain we want to do it, and we can't do it alone
DeepO: atm, our research is huge, compared to the other teams
DeepO: and once rep will come, this will change
DeepO: but because Bob will get into a war pretty soon, most likely the moment they get knights
DeepO: research will practically halt on their side
DeepO: so, we can either stop ourselves, as we also need money (and you too)
DeepO: or, we can research at full speed, and let the others pay for our tech slider
DeepO: in this last case, we need a partner: Lego
DeepO: again, this is only a wild idea, and no proposal, but I just want to let you know one of the possibilities in this game
DeepO: and want to hear your ideas on it
DeepO: also, it isn't very urgent
DeepO: next few techs are not that important
DeepO: buut we are trying the idea out on Feud
DeepO: in that, we want everyone of the world to pay for a tech, that we are the only ones investing beakers in
DeepO: there are a lot of ways in which this can go wrong
DeepO: but in general, if we can make other teams (read Bob) dependent on us, we would be relatively safe
DeepO: and in a good position to win this game
DeepO: (There are other options of winning the game, some of which are also being discussed on our boards right now)
DeepO: okay. that's enough text for the moment, let's hear your opinions
Nimitz: yes
DeepO: yes?
* DeepO sets mode: +o Nimitz
Nimitz: well we are worried about the the other team they might turn on us if we started to run the reseach
DeepO: true
DeepO: which is also a concern
DeepO: buut if we would be fair, and poowerful
DeepO: we might be able to make it something of an advantage for them too
DeepO: in that they don't need to worry about research, they get it for a cheap price
DeepO: (btw, don't mind my type style, today is a double-vowel day, it seems )
Nimitz: they don't care they would fear use just for the fact we can turn off the spicket
DeepO: spicket?
DeepO: sorry, don't understand
Nimitz: fauset
DeepO: nm, I think I can get the idea (fauset?)
DeepO: well, maybe
DeepO: but it depends on other fctors
DeepO: right now, they can't really invade us
DeepO: and I don't think Lego is at particular risk either
DeepO: so, the moment you can claim your territory coast to coast, and have a decent defense force, they will think twice
DeepO: in our case, this moment will come relatively early
DeepO: and I thought you needed about 20 turns from now on to get there
Nimitz: not sure myself
DeepO: well, anyway, it's always a case of portaying to be ready, more then being ready
DeepO: which is why, from time to time, we mention Theseus and Arrian in dipllo conversation, it keeps us safe
DeepO: all this can only start the moment war breaks out at Bob
Nimitz: yes
DeepO: and this will be soon
DeepO: as either Vox wil create some trouble very soon
DeepO: or we simply need to wait for riders
DeepO: we have a reasonable assurance from teams that that moment will get decisive
Nimitz: how far are you from Feu.
DeepO: we hope GoW wins...
DeepO: well, it depends
DeepO: right now, I thought we had 8 turns left, if we don't want to lose any cash in the progress
DeepO: (could be 6 in the mean time, I'm a few turns behind on info)
DeepO: but, there were more then one voice asking to speed it up
DeepO: if we can get (part of) the cost of this elsewhere
DeepO: If we would really go for it, we should finish in 4 turns or so
DeepO: ... yes republic does marvelous things to your commerce
Nimitz: when you have libaries
DeepO: libraries are another discussion
DeepO: another option would be to go slower on this
DeepO: and use the saved cash to do mass infrastructure rushing
DeepO: another idea we were thinking on
DeepO: but in this case, the difference between us, and the other team that is researching Feud would diminish
DeepO: and probably mean that they will research it independently
DeepO: we can't have that, or our scheme stops working
Nimitz: well GoW is after it
DeepO: so.. basically... we're at crossroads, and not sure how to proceed
DeepO: GoW: we know
DeepO: but I couldn't tell you that, as they told us in private
DeepO: so it had to come from you first...
DeepO: (yeah, stupid honor rule we want to keep )
DeepO: so, maybe it's good to hear more from Lego, to see if they would like such a scheme
DeepO: because it's obvious we can't do this alone
DeepO: we need some kind of tech-partner, to split the costs, and the gains
DeepO: I fully understand this does not get decided in a week time
DeepO: so, maybe it's best to build our relation up
DeepO: and go one step at the time
DeepO: (also, changing situations in the world can be reacted too)
DeepO: so... first deal first
Nimitz: yes we know about trade taking time
DeepO: would you be interested in either getting feud for gold from us
DeepO: or as part of a 2 tech deal?
Nimitz: most likely a deal down the rode like two tech one
DeepO: you want to wait?
DeepO: or did I read that incorrectly
Nimitz: yes say like 5 turns for us to make a deal for Fue and Chivalry
DeepO: np
DeepO: some ideas we wer thinking on:
DeepO: 1. we give you feud + knight, you give theo + gold compensation ( a fair one, of course). Seeing as we will deliver feud a lot sooner, maybe it would be best to deicde on the compensation first, and trade that to feud, later on doing a straight theo-chivalry exchange
DeepO: 2. We handle feud like we do with all teams, compensating later in a separate deal
DeepO: 3. we wait on feud, and exchange it once theo is ready (by which time, we should have chivalry). Problem here is, that we want to avoid that you get the opportunity to buy it at a lower price from someone who we sold it to, at a time our NDA would have expired. Wouldn't be very fair to us
DeepO: 4. Any other things you might want to come up with
DeepO: we have at least 4 turns to decide, but some kind of principal agreement on which path to follow would be nice to have
DeepO: alleviates stress
DeepO: I think
Nimitz: ok let me let me take this back to the team and I'll have general answer by tomorrow
DeepO: tomorrow would be superb, really, there is no problem if you wait 2 days
Nimitz: ok
DeepO: as to the rest: would it be too much to ask if you have a rough eta on theo yet?
DeepO: and have you had any conversations with other teams, trying to find out if some are going for it too?
Nimitz: 20 turns at the latest
DeepO: okay. we should have chivalry by then at any rate
DeepO: so that's good to hear... also not too late for others to be first in getting it
Nimitz: no talks yet.
Nimitz: well gtg bye
DeepO: planning on?
DeepO: bye, see you next sunday
Nimitz: not that I know of
Nimitz: bye
Session Close: Sun Apr 06 16:21:22 2003

[Tiberius]

Nothing new here. All we have to do now is delaying deals with GS.

Btw, Nimitz, we never wanted to make a feud + chivalry for theology + gold deal, like you suggested to DeepO. You should read the Enlightened thread before chatting and offering deals. Feud is not a priority, so we can wait GoW to research it and exchange it for Theo. for Feud + money and then exchanbe Theo for Chiv + money with the GS.

So, for an answer to GS: we will trade for Feud and Chiv only they will be available, we are not interested in prearraged deals on them. Feudalism is not a piority for us so we are waiting for Theo (or chivalry, whichever will be first on the market) and not trading in the meantime.

[Nimitz]

Yes, I know it was to stall them.

[vondrack]

Message from DeepO:

Nimitz,
quantum_mechani,
redstar1,
vondrack,

(I was unsure who to send it to, so I just picked all)

You can imagine that the times are rather hectic, lately, so my apologies for not getting in touch sooner. But I wanted to give you an update...

Feudalism should be ours in normally 2, at most 3 turns. At which time we'll offer it to the world (well, not Vox, naturally). We have been discussing to delay it, using the time for upgrade and rush money, but it won't be needed. The Voxians have given us an opportunity to get to our GA before their main force is even in sight, money isn't really a problem any more.

I know you were still discussing it, but have you reached any conclusion in-team on our last proposal (200 gold or 12 gpt, plus 10 turn NDA)? We are certain no other team is going to be able to provide it before our NDAs run out, as nobody besides us is currently researching the tech.

Further, a bit of update on the war with Vox: currently, all action is limited to a couple of border skirmishes. They took us a little by surprise, we were looking towards their territory as one of the options for future expansion, but not so soon. So, we were not fully prepared, however we can react very quickly. The first few turns of the war may get tense, we might lose 1 or 2 cities at most depending on what Vox will launch at us, but there is no way they are going to keep up with our production, in our GA we're probably over 3 times as productive as them.

It most likely was a Live or Die choice for Vox, we can see their cities now (they have sold us their map, accepting the gold in the same turn as killing Grog), and half of them have been pop-rushed to size 1. Also, but you probably now this already, they never launched an attack towards Bob, that was a ruse. They tricked us though

Other insights in the current situation: RP is up to it again. Be aware of Togas, he is using every dirty trick he knows to take advantage of the situation. RP has asked us whether we want to help take care of Legoland, as Legoland would be the biggest competitor on their huge territory if left alone. The same moment, they were asking GoW to get a trade embargo against us, and are sponsoring Vox with cash to attack us, hoping to prune us. Luckily for us, GoW is starting to see their evil machinations, maybe we can isolate RP a little. Vox won't be around long enough to be influenced by Togas' 'requests' or 'unofficial communications' either

Togas should take a signature of "divide and Conquer", at least the first part of that is working splendidly.

See you next Sunday,
DeepO

For the very first time, I find something DeepO says to be quite correct and believable (yes, it is the part about RPers ...but on a serious note, my patience with the RPers is over, I am considering them our enemy from now on - even though I'm not going to let them know).

I guess it is time to think up some nice story... we now need to tell GS we are not ready to make any deals for Feudalism at the moment. Here is a couple of ideas:

1) we may indirectly indicate we bought the map from Voxes, too. Something like "unfortunately, we spent quite a lot of money on a deal with Voxes recently... details are supposed to be kept secret... but we considered it to be important, giving us a strategic advantage, so we spent the money eventually... all we can say is it was probably something very similar to the deal you made with them" - GS would think we're talking about a map deal, while we'd actually be talking about the Monotheism deal.

2) we may indirectly indicate we lost money to barbs. Something like "when the world went medieval, we had quite some troubles with barbarian uprisings... there were... well, how to say it... some unplanned for "money transfers" between us and them" - they'd think barbs sacked our city, while we would actually be talking about delayed Logville foundation and getting money from barb camps...

3) we may mention we lost the C+C deal with RPers quite unexpectedly, perhaps even saying we lost the deal because RPers got C+C from a source that was obviously illegal... despite being informed we were the only "legal" one - considering what GS think of Togas, they will trust us and understand (plus, we would not be lying at all). We can even go as far as to "honestly" tell them that we made much less out of the C+C combo than we had hoped for, being able to trade it to two teams only... as opposed to four we were hoping for... this is again 100% true.

4) we should mention we are researching at full speed (thus, saving no gold) to get a bit ahead of the rest of the world in "our" branch of the techtree, saving a couple of turns for the government switch - this is again true, just told in a way that would most probably mislead GS to believe we are low on cash.

5) we should tell them we are "unfortunately not able to make any tech for cash deals at the moment, thus asking to postpone arranging the deal at least until we finish researching Theology and switch to Republic - as that will significantly improve our cash flow and gold reserves". Perhaps repeating Feudalism alone is of little interest to us (due to the awesome Mercs) and that it is Chivalry what we are really looking for.

6) we should mention "being happy that GS is not having troubles with funding their war with Voxes, as we would be unable to assist them in this way ATM" (yes, it's the GS cockiness again... if "money isn't really a problem any more", then let them help themselves... let them shoot themselves in the foot again... )

Any other ideas?

I guess we should put together a response within 24 hours, to raise no suspicion. I am going to acknowledge the receipt of the PM right now, promising to respond within 24 hours.

[lmtoops]

I would just blame the lack of gold on an internal issue, such as barbarian problems. They could not refute that in any way. The other delay tactics come with strings attached.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by lmtoops
I would just blame the lack of gold on an internal issue, such as barbarian problems. They could not refute that in any way. The other delay tactics come with strings attached.

You mean to drop any direct references to making a deal in the future (i.e. scrapping #5 in my post)? That may be a good idea, yes... what do you think about #1-#4?

[ZargonX]

I would go with a combo of full speed research and some barb losses. Both of these cannot be corraborated with other teams, thus making them "safe" stories. Plus, knowing them, as soon as they hear that we lost money to barbs, they'll just start thinking how incompetant we are, which means they'll underestimate us, which is always a good thing

As for the rest, geez, I just don't trust anybody anymore! Now I'm seeing conspiracies everywhere.. what if GoW turns around and takes out Vox in a twisted backstabbing!?

But what he says about RP is very believable, especially given their lust for our map. I say we cut no more deals with RP, period, but just keep baiting them along. Work with GoW, work with Vox, and trust no one at all.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by vondrack
For the very first time, I find something DeepO says to be quite correct and believable (yes, it is the part about RPers ...but on a serious note, my patience with the RPers is over, I am considering them our enemy from now on - even though I'm not going to let them know).

I agree, it seems they don't even want an inferior partner in us.

I guess it is time to think up some nice story... we now need to tell GS we are not ready to make any deals for Feudalism at the moment. Here is a couple of ideas:

1) we may indirectly indicate we bought the map from Voxes, too. Something like "unfortunately, we spent quite a lot of money on a deal with Voxes recently... details are supposed to be kept secret... but we considered it to be important, giving us a strategic advantage, so we spent the money eventually... all we can say is it was probably something very similar to the deal you made with them" - GS would think we're talking about a map deal, while we'd actually be talking about the Monotheism deal.

I'd strike out the last part of that ("all we can say is it was probably something very similar to the deal you made with them"); it comes too close to lying.

Edit: Thinking over it more, let's leave out this excuse entirely. We want to keep our recent heavy dealings with Vox a secret for now, in case the war backfires and Vox is eliminated or heavily downsized out of the game. We also don't want to come up with too many excuses, or GS may see we're doing just that.

2) we may indirectly indicate we lost money to barbs. Something like "when the world went medieval, we had quite some troubles with barbarian uprisings... there were... well, how to say it... some unplanned for "money transfers" between us and them" - they'd think barbs sacked our city, while we would actually be talking about delayed Logville foundation and getting money from barb camps...

Also comes too close to lying for my taste. Just say at the end that there were "some unplanned for consequences."

3) we may mention we lost the C+C deal with RPers quite unexpectedly, perhaps even saying we lost the deal because RPers got C+C from a source that was obviously illegal... despite being informed we were the only "legal" one - considering what GS think of Togas, they will trust us and understand (plus, we would not be lying at all). We can even go as far as to "honestly" tell them that we made much less out of the C+C combo than we had hoped for, being able to trade it to two teams only... as opposed to four we were hoping for... this is again 100% true.

Sounds good. This will also hint to them they are in ill favor after their failing to get a NDA w/ Voxes, but that's okay with me.

4) we should mention we are researching at full speed (thus, saving no gold) to get a bit ahead of the rest of the world in "our" branch of the techtree, saving a couple of turns for the government switch - this is again true, just told in a way that would most probably mislead GS to believe we are low on cash.

Not really sure what the bolded part would convince them of, and it would give out more information; I'd take it out. Otherwise

5) we should tell them we are "unfortunately not able to make any tech for cash deals at the moment, thus asking to postpone arranging the deal at least until we finish researching Theology and switch to Republic - as that will significantly improve our cash flow and gold reserves". Perhaps repeating Feudalism alone is of little interest to us (due to the awesome Mercs) and that it is Chivalry what we are really looking for.

The "Feudalism isn't important to us" line should be our mainstay in stalling any negotiations; I agree with lmtoops on this.

6) we should mention "being happy that GS is not having troubles with funding their war with Voxes, as we would be unable to assist them in this way ATM" (yes, it's the GS cockiness again... if "money isn't really a problem any more", then let them help themselves... let them shoot themselves in the foot again... )

I'd leave this out; there's really no reason to include it in this message, and if GS does come looking for a loan or another way of getting money, we can say it isn't possible then.