Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Nimitz
what chat?

Glad you asked. There is a chat scheduled with GS for 8:00pm GMT today (message from DeepO came few hours ago). It would be great if you and quantum_mechani show up, too - GS would be able to see we are serious about cooperating with them and serious about the deal.

[vondrack]

GS chat (Tuesday, March 18)

OK, here is the log of the chat held with DeepO and zeit of Gathering Storm today (only very slightly edited):

Part 1:

Session Start: Tue Mar 18 20:45:49 2003
Session Ident: #LeGS
DeepO: so... first things first, how would you like a pure tech deal
DeepO: in that you somehow get us cons+curr, we give repu+ polyt
DeepO: with a bit of a compensation for the difference in beaker costs
quantum_mechani: hmm... I think we already have poly
vondrack: yes, we do, DeepO
DeepO: ok, so what about the same, buut gold on our side with repu, for the 2 others?
vondrack: actually, we planned to be a bit nicer to you
DeepO: you were?
zeit: please elaborate...
vondrack: we'd be happy to trade Curr+Const for Rep
vondrack: in case you let us
vondrack: trade Rep to GoW and RPers later
DeepO: that sounds good
vondrack: and do not mind us trading with Voxes
DeepO: one sec
DeepO: RP and GoW: no problem
DeepO: if you leave us ND and Vox
vondrack: that would be a problem... I will explain
DeepO: and possibly, if we delay trading rep away for 1 turn after we both got it
vondrack: Voxes are scientific
vondrack: they get a free tech once they entered medieval times
DeepO: true
vondrack: we'd like to have a chance trading for it
DeepO: we're misunderstanding each other, I think
vondrack: so that in the end, Lego, GS, and Voxes start from the same point in the medieval times
DeepO: aha
quantum_mechani: sorry, I know I am supposed to be doing the talking but I can't keep up with the typing
vondrack:
DeepO:
DeepO: yeah
zeit: so am i, it's okay
DeepO: can I take the board for a minute?
vondrack: sorry for taking over, I thought you were having troubles, q_m
vondrack: sure
DeepO: first of all: we were thinking on you getting Vox's tech
vondrack: good
DeepO: but that was not a problem to us, if it wouldn't prevent us from trading republic with Vox
DeepO: after that, everything is fine for us
DeepO: we don't see Vox as our property, you know
vondrack: we thought that you would trade Rep for the free Vox tech
DeepO: more or less, yes
vondrack: so we seem to understand each other
vondrack: we would like to trade Curr+Constr for their free tech
vondrack: +/- something to balance things maybe - but that's just a detail
DeepO: well
DeepO: for us it's fine, but some of the deal so far already included trading the two techs to Vox
vondrack: you trading it to them?
DeepO: i'm noot saying you can't try it, but I doubt they would go for it
DeepO: yes, more or less
DeepO: i'm sorry, but it's hard to get specific when it comes to Vox, it's a very complex situation
vondrack: well, if you don't trade Curr+Constr to them yourselves, they will not be able to get it from anywhere else
DeepO: maybe we could somehow trade that tech to you?
DeepO: vondrack that might be a way out
vondrack: that might be possible, I hope
vondrack: my only concern would be the exact timing
vondrack: but thinking of it
vondrack: it would probably be ok
zeit: while also making a long term deal into the medeival, i'm sure any single tier 1 tech can be compensated later on
DeepO: because if you would propose us with a limited non disclosure thing, we wouldn't be allowed to trade it on
DeepO: so you wold create a window of opportunity to trade to lego too
vondrack: well, as far as you would be able to accomodate us on the Vox free tech (no-whore clause, of course), we would be happy, I believe
DeepO: well, we were already thinking on trying to get a longer relation with you
DeepO: so that shouldn't be a problem
vondrack: so are we
vondrack: there are reasonable teams and there are other teams
DeepO:
zeit: as we are both top researchers, and pretty isolated
vondrack: yeah
DeepO: well... are you top researchers?
vondrack: no idea )
zeit: so we are rather safe from foreign intrusions, that might hinder such a long term relationship
DeepO: because it is our impression, but we could be wrong
vondrack: but we are doing fine, I hope
DeepO: you should see it in the F11 screen, under GNP
DeepO: it ranks you...
vondrack: lemme see
vondrack: dammit
vondrack: it's bad
vondrack: we are not #1
vondrack:
zeit: ?
vondrack: #2
vondrack:
DeepO: thank you...
zeit: we are #1
zeit: like i said
DeepO: we are both the top, then, this might make things a bit easier
vondrack: then we are not top researchers - you are :P
zeit: DeepO, you're a genius
vondrack:
zeit: i meant- we both
vondrack: j/k
DeepO: okay, more specific
DeepO: would you in general be interested in getting the both us to education and knights fast?
DeepO: by splitting research amongst us?
vondrack: well, I am speaking for myself now
vondrack: these things need to be consulted with the team
DeepO: I mean, no official proposal, just trying to figure out your larger goals in this game
vondrack: but as far as I know
DeepO: of course
vondrack: yes
redstar1: I think we can both benefit from some form of co-operation
vondrack: we would be interested
DeepO: well, we would too
DeepO: if only for the less hectic diplo contacts
vondrack: preferring to go for the Edu branch
DeepO: okay... this is something we should see in team
vondrack: yeah, diplo is hectic
DeepO: our long term planning isn't that far, too many variables the next 50 or so turns
vondrack: np
DeepO: it opens a lot of possibilities
vondrack: us leaning towards the Edu branch is just something that was very informally discussed in one chat
vondrack: nothing set in stone
redstar1: i think the point made was that it suits our circumstances
DeepO: maybe it would be best to try to schedule a more regular chat between our teams, so more of our teams can make it
vondrack: good idea
DeepO: edu: np
redstar1: although at the time we feared being well behind in tech
DeepO: no GL idea?
vondrack: GLib?
DeepO: it seemed so obvious to us...
DeepO: yeah
vondrack: it would have been a lot of gambling
DeepO: now it doesn't make this much sense anymore
DeepO: if you can be the tech-leader, who wants to trail behind?
vondrack: we had no idea whether and what is being built
DeepO: so far, not much...
vondrack: what was
redstar1: no, i think we gain more from discussions as this than we would from the GL
DeepO:
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: yes
vondrack: so, to make things clear - we do not consider building GLib
DeepO: no, now it would be a waste
vondrack: agreed
DeepO:
DeepO: luckily for every team
DeepO: it might be possible to get more military tech before getting edu, perhaps
DeepO: I don't know...
DeepO: if that would do any good
DeepO: we'll start a discussion on this in our forum
vondrack: thinking of the lower part of the tree?

[vondrack]

Part 2:

DeepO: Okay, summarizing:
redstar1: we have plenty of time
DeepO: yes
DeepO: 1. we'll try to get a more regular chat going
DeepO: every weekend perhaps?
DeepO: it's easier on time tables
redstar1: sunday evenings? gmt?
vondrack: np with me
DeepO: sounds good, if it's not too late
redstar1: dunno what suits vondrack or quantum tbh
DeepO: too soon, I mean
DeepO:
vondrack: I am GMT+1
DeepO: me too
vondrack: and hanging around almost all the time
quantum_mechani: GMT -9
DeepO: but Sunday isn't good before 9 gmt for me
zeit: i'm GMT+2
DeepO: okay, zeit what hour can you stay up at a Sunday?
zeit: pretty early, i might be able to make it until 10 GMT
DeepO: what about 9 GMT then?
vondrack: Sunday 9pm GMT would be okay with me
DeepO: that would be good for me, and normally with q_m too
redstar1: yep
zeit: okay, sounds good to me
DeepO: let's fix that, then
vondrack: q_m, is this ok with you?
vondrack: I mean, for you it's noon time, right?
zeit: we have scheduled another date- means our relationship is getting on the right track...
quantum_mechani: let me check the time zone converter
vondrack: LoL
zeit: those non-europeans, can't convert simple GMT times...
vondrack:
redstar1: hehe
zeit: oops, just turned myself into a european.. but they let us play in the euro champinships
redstar1: ahh israel right?
zeit: yep
redstar1: all hell gonna break loose down there
DeepO: next one... q_m get back to us later
zeit: have my ABC protection kit eight next to me, don't freak me or i'm gonna inject myself some atropin
quantum_mechani: yes, 9pm GMT is ok
DeepO: 2. Lego will trade cons+curr to GS, we trade repu to them the moment we'll discover it (should be turn 82)
vondrack: ok, let's go on
DeepO: okay
DeepO: so 1. is fixed at 9pm GMT on Sundays
vondrack: good
DeepO: 2.: more things: do you have an eta on any of the techs?
vondrack: Curr in 9-10 turns
vondrack: 10 max
vondrack: 9 maybe
vondrack: sorry - no time to whip my XLSes recently
DeepO: 3. We will try to figure out some way of getting Vox's free tech to lego
DeepO: np
DeepO: 9 or 10 should be close enough
vondrack: Construction will be available in time
zeit: do we delay Republic public release?
DeepO: 3.: need more discussion on both parts
DeepO: 04 « 14zeit 04 » maybe best
DeepO: but not too much
DeepO: 2 turns max
DeepO: any little bit helps set us apart
DeepO: every
DeepO: instead of any
DeepO: and no, i'm not flodding you
DeepO: it only looks that way
DeepO: flodding = flooding
zeit: of course we should, but does Lego agree, vondrack?
vondrack: thinking it over
DeepO: take your time
zeit: okay, DeepO, that's enough.
vondrack: we would probably prefer not delaying it
vondrack: but I would have to consult
DeepO: okay...
redstar1: damn democracy
DeepO: but there is again a possibility here
vondrack: we might prefer you keeping it for YOURSELF only for those two turns
DeepO: if you would always trade for the tech, instead of giving it (and aceepting it in the same turn)
zeit: As top researchers, we have common interest- delaying the advance of other teams
DeepO: ah, but that's no problem
DeepO: indeed
DeepO: that was what we're aiming for
DeepO: but it would require one more thing: some pruning of the Bobian civs
vondrack: yes, that would be okay
vondrack: Turn 84 then?
DeepO: sounds good to me
DeepO: but we'll need to get it confirmed by our team
vondrack: that would be perfectly okay with us
DeepO: ok
DeepO: 3. then
DeepO: 4. I mean
DeepO: 4. Lego and GS try to get some tech relation in place, which will last well into the middle age
DeepO: preferably a very long time
vondrack: yes, that sounds viable
DeepO: but that depends too much on situation to say something meaningfull on
vondrack: and doable, too
DeepO: part of 4. means that in the near future, we'll coordinate tech plans
DeepO: which means a bit of long term planning on both teams
vondrack: yes, that would be okay
DeepO: something else we need to discuss?
vondrack: ahhhh... long term planning... my hobby
DeepO:
vondrack: DeepO, one thing
vondrack: that free tech from Voxes is crucial for us
vondrack: keep that in mind, please
DeepO: yes I do
vondrack: ok
zeit: This should be kept secret from the other teams, though, as they won't really like dealing with two teams that research as one
DeepO: and I don't want to rip you of getting it either
DeepO: but it might be needed to delay it getting to you...
DeepO: and it will depend on what it is
DeepO: if mono, it might be traded slower then when it would be one of the military techs
vondrack: other than that, we'd agree to not resell that free tech + would ask to be able to sell Rep to GoW & RPers + would ask that you do not trade Curr+Constr to GoW & RPers
DeepO: good for me
DeepO: if you would allow us sole right on rep to ND and Vox
DeepO: and no NDA on curr+constr to Vox
vondrack: yes, that would be fine with us
vondrack: no NDA?
DeepO: we'll try to get ND in on the deal, but there's no guarantee they'll go for it
DeepO: Non Disclosure Agreement
DeepO: also NWA
DeepO: Non whoring Agreement
DeepO:
vondrack: like we do no sell it to them, right?
zeit: they are somewhat silent when it comes to PM and out of game comm.
DeepO: yes, indeed
vondrack: yep, that would be okay
DeepO: zeit ND?
DeepO: it's true
zeit: yep
DeepO: okay, I'll try to get a proposal ratified by our board asap, it should reach you in 2 days or so
vondrack: hmmm... you guys are no fun!
DeepO: maybe 3... I'm on a conference
vondrack: you shoudl see other teams
DeepO: no fun?
vondrack: THEY are difficult to bargain with! )
DeepO:
vondrack: this is like a friendly chit-chat...
DeepO: part comes of course because it's on our interest that lego grows stronger
vondrack: just j/k, of course
zeit: well, when sharing interests, its much easier to trade
DeepO: while all the others see you as a threat
vondrack: yeah... no idea why, really
DeepO: your isolated
DeepO: simple...
DeepO: but we're kind of isloated too
DeepO: we're hearing strange rumours coming from Bob
vondrack: about what?
DeepO: they seem to realise that the longer we stay left alone, the better our position gets.
DeepO: certainly now that lego is one of the best econmoical powers in this game
DeepO: so... diplo contact is getting a lot harsher
vondrack: hmmm... come to think of it... they may be right, after all... )
DeepO:
DeepO: maybe
zeit: more attention will come in our way, especially when they realize we have some arrangement between us
DeepO: true
vondrack: I agree
DeepO: we need to keep this absolutely secret
vondrack: agreed
vondrack: how do Voxes fit in, if you do not mind me asking?
DeepO: well...
DeepO: it's complicated
vondrack: Bobians seem to believe you and them are in fact one
zeit: So sniff around, and be alert, those Bobians can be hurt rather quickly- they've had their share of betrayls, and seem unforgiving
DeepO: Vox is getting behind big time
vondrack: The One, maybe )
DeepO: and they know it
DeepO: which makes them a lot more unstable to deal with
DeepO: we absolutely need to keep them friendly until we get their tech
DeepO: after that... who knows
DeepO: we are prepared for an attack before that, though
DeepO: so maybe there will be a problem with their tech after all
vondrack: you fear them attacking you?
DeepO: now would be the best time for them
DeepO: because of their imortals
DeepO: immortals
vondrack: that's true
DeepO: it's not that we are so tense about it
zeit: We can't say we fear, as they are pretty weak, but we keep an eye
DeepO: but it really is a possibility
DeepO: currently, our relation is in their favor
DeepO: in that we give them more then we get
zeit: besides their UU, they are no serious threat, but we dislike fighting wars that others dictate
DeepO: simply because there is fewer to get then we can give
vondrack: I see
DeepO: but how long this will keep up? I don't know
vondrack: well, this is fascinating
DeepO: is it?
DeepO: how did you saw our relation then?
vondrack: seeing/hearing the same thing from different sources
DeepO: lol
DeepO: I can imagine... curious what Vox would have to say
vondrack: the pictures are so much different
zeit: I think Vox have been talking about our relations more then they should have, as eyes are starting to turn at our direction, with a mean look too
DeepO: true
DeepO: it makes us sound like the bad guys, while we're just keeping our mouth shut
DeepO: which we promised to do too...
vondrack: yeah... "secretive" is the term I heard used regarding GS
DeepO: may be
DeepO: but that is not our intention
zeit: We treat this game rather seriously, so our secrets, are, well, secret
vondrack: I heard that same term used about us
vondrack: ditto
DeepO: the problem is that if we want to play honorably, not mentioning anything of what another team tells us in private, we can't really say much
DeepO: and we want to play honorably
DeepO: at all costs
vondrack: I understand
vondrack: this is quite different from what Bobians are used to
DeepO: true
DeepO: which makes them very powerful allies
DeepO: if they ever can set their differences apart
DeepO: in that respect, it would be best if we try to focus on one or a few teams, to keep them divided
DeepO: diplomatically I mean
DeepO: not military
vondrack: we are still looking for our place in this world
zeit: But strife there works in our favor, to a certain degree- it is best they focus on themselevs, but not forced into drastic measures, like Lux was
vondrack: you seem to be the first variable turning into a constant
vondrack: for us
DeepO:
DeepO: we hope so
zeit: i concur
DeepO: it would make our game a lot easier to assess
vondrack: yes
vondrack: well
DeepO: things are slowing down... any thing else?
zeit: I'm almost certain this will be approved on our board, as no serous concerns were raised
DeepO: otherwise, I would say see you next Sunday
vondrack: agreed
DeepO: and I agree, this should be an easy deal
vondrack: next Sunday, 9pm GMT
zeit: so if we both want our relations to be constant, it is quite probably will
vondrack: it was our greatest pleasure, Gentlemen
DeepO: the pleasure was all ours
zeit: May we have many more fruitful talks like this one
Session Close: Tue Mar 18 22:34:12 2003

As you can see, the key deal is very likely to be signed shortly.

Go Legoland!

[Tiberius]

I don't know... Everybody seem very happy about this deal, I don't know why I'm not.

Is it maybe because we are giving them Constr+Currency for Republic, which is a huge advantage for them, while they are not allowing us to trade with the Voxes for their free tech?

Unless I'll see in the treaty draft that they are giving us Monotheism for free, I won't accept it, because it'd be very unfair to us. I'd settle for a small amount of money perhaps, but not for one of our future techs, for ex.

Otherwise all is well, I agree. Slowly creating a lead in science, GS and us, means a huge advantage, but also a risk to upset the militaristic Bob civs. (and they are closer to us than GS). Keeping at least one of them happy, even if that means giving more than getting is essential. However we enter the land of secrecy, so be aware of that in future chats.

[redstar1]

I'm also slightly concerned about the lack of access to Vox they seem prepared to give us, but I'll wait for the treaty draft before making any comments

[vondrack]

I would consider it as "goes without saying" that we would get Monotheism in exchange for granting GS rights to trade Curr+Construction to Voxes.

I will not accept any treaty that does not net us the same as GS are going to get (i.e. Voxes' free tech). And I am not even prepared to throw in any cash bonus.

Besides, I have just received a PM by BetaHound. Voxes expressed their desire to possibly deal directly with us, not through GS. I believe that their ties to GS are weaker than Bobians believe. We may be able to get Vox contact from ND quite easily and for cheap, if we lower the price on Currency a bit... just an idea...

I 100% agree that the treaty must net us Republic and Monotheism without having to throw in anything extra.

[Tiberius]

Glad to see that we agree

[lmtoops]

We need to make sure this information is kept confidencial. I know there is a tendency to let little details slip-out. This is a human flaw that we all have. We want to brag about being in the "know".

So let's fight this temptation and keep our dealing confidential.

[vondrack]

Just to keep everybody updated... making sure we do our best to prevent ending up dependent on a single team, I have PMed BetaHound of Voxes, asking whether they would consider trading for their free medieval tech. I will post the message soon in another thread reserved for Vox affairs.

[Tiberius]

WHAT? I have PMed BetaHound today! I thought we agreed that I am the new ambassador and I handle the PMs while you (or Nimitz) handle the chats.

Damn!

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
WHAT? I have PMed BetaHound today! I thought we agreed that I am the new ambassador and I handle the PMs while you (or Nimitz) handle the chats.

Damn!

Sorry, Tibi, but it is not a problem at all, believe me. I was responding to a PM that was mostly personal, not really related to PtWDG, adding just few words about the trade deal idea (that's also why I did not post the PM in full here).

I am fully aware of that you are supposed to take care of PMs sent to Vox Controli.

[Tiberius]

No problem with you sending a PM, i'm not upset or something. Only you should tell me in advance so that I wouldn't send the same thing again. That's all.

[redstar1]

ratified proposal
redstar1, quantum_mechani,

Sorry to be this late in getting back to you, I just arrived back from my trip... kind of exhausted too. The proposal I posted to the board last Tuesday was approved unanomously(sp?), and quite quickly too. I'm sorry it didn't reach you sooner...

Please find hereunder the proposal as discussed in last chat. Just some quick protocol (I'm sure it's similar on your side, but just to leave no doubts on this...): normally we first discuss a proposal, until we feel ready to ratify it. If so, one party (in this case us) makes a proposal, which we officially poll about on our board. If it gets approved, we send the ratified proposal back to the other party. The moment we get word back they agree to it, we consider the deal to be in effect.

For smaller deals, we can be less strict, but for things like these, which spans hopefully a long time, we are careful not to imply anything, but to be very clear and unambigously.

If you have any comments, or see any necessary changes, don't hesitate to contact me. It was as discussed in last chat (at least to the best of my knowledge), but that doesn't make it final per se...

quote:
Proposal between Legoland and Gathering Storm, trading republic against construction and currency
1. Legoland will give construction and currency to Gathering Storm, the turn they acquire it, in order to get both of us to the middle age asap.

2. Gathering Storm will give Legoland the Republic, no later then turn 84 (barring natural disasters of those magnitude that it wouldn't be possible to reach the republic before that time)

3. Legoland is free to trade republic to RP and to GoW the moment they get it. They will not trade the republic to ND or Vox

4. Gathering Storm is free to trade the republic to Vox and to ND, and will not try to trade it to RP or GoW

5. Gathering Storm is free to trade construction and currency to Vox and ND, if possible

6. When entering the middle age, Vox will receive a free tech. Under normal circumstances, Gathering Storm will acquire this tech from Vox. If so, they will immediately trade it to Legoland, for a favorable price (quite possible as part of a larger deal).
Legoland agrees to some form of non disclosure agreement on the 'free tech', of which details can later be discussed.

7. It is the hope of both our teams that this trade is the first in a long term relationship, and negotiations for such a longer trade relation will start immediately (e.g. on discovering techs in opposite branches, to both speed onwards in the tech tree)

8. To better discuss this, regular chats are being scheduled between our teams, proposed every Sunday, at 9 pm GMT somewhere in the Apolyton chat rooms. Everyone is welcome


Further issues: I'm trying to get into the chatroom, but had no luck so far to connect to apolyton (which happens more, I'm afraid). I keep trying, but maybe there is not that much need: because of my trip, I'm totally behind with PTW-DG stuff, I have a full week Gathering Spam forum to get through I can't say much new, as I haven't given this much thought lately... I don't know if many opinions have formed already on our board (at first glance, nothing decisive, but maybe it's simply burried in the new posts), I can't speak for them. So, if others can't join me, there is little point for me to participate...

So I suggest to postpone the chat, unless you have anything to ask, for which I'll gladly try to get connected... and I promise that for next week, I'll try to get some discussion going on our board as to where we want this relation to go to... next Sunday, I'll be better informed. My apologies again for not contacting you sooner, real life can be a chronical disease sometimes.

DeepO

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by redstar1
5. Gathering Storm is free to trade construction and currency to Vox and ND, if possible

6. When entering the middle age, Vox will receive a free tech. Under normal circumstances, Gathering Storm will acquire this tech from Vox. If so, they will immediately trade it to Legoland, for a favorable price (quite possible as part of a larger deal).
Legoland agrees to some form of non disclosure agreement on the 'free tech', of which details can later be discussed.

What were you saying Radek, that we will get Monotheism for free? Read this: GS is free to trade constr+Currency with Vox and GS will trade Monotheism to Lego for a favorable price. Yeah right, like I will vote such a treaty. This is a completely unfair deal.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
What were you saying Radek, that we will get Monotheism for free? Read this: GS is free to trade constr+Currency with Vox and GS will trade Monotheism to Lego for a favorable price. Yeah right, like I will vote such a treaty. This is a completely unfair deal.

Fully agreed. I have already pointed this out to redstar1 yesterday in the chatroom. They must have misunderstood what we were telling them... we are not going to sign such a treaty, that's for sure.