Gathering Storm - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Message from Arrian:

Dear Vondrack, and the people of Legoland:

First, allow me to express the thanks of our people for Legoland's understanding and flexibility in this matter. It is much appreciated.

We've discussed it, and decided that the best course of action is to take you up on your offer to void the Banking-Astronomy deal. We've also discussed the compensation for the difference in tech costs (40gold, was it, from us to you? Please correct me if I'm mistaken!) and decided to waive it, in consideration for your team's willingness to help us out by voiding the deal.

You have mentioned that you will be receiving Invention soon, via a deal with another team. I have four questions regarding that transaction:

1) Can you tell me exactly when you will have Inv?
2) Can you tell me where you're getting it from?
3) Can you sell it to us, or is there a NDA. If so, for how long?
4) If you can sell Invention to us (either now, or when a NDA runs out), how much would you want for it?

Thanks again, and I hope to hear from you soon ('poly willing).

-Arrian
Co-General of the Armies of the Gathering Storm
Assistant Ambassador to the people of Legoland

I am anxiously awaiting your ideas regarding our response...

[ZargonX]

Well, I'm sure they've already piece together WHO we're getting it from, so the when is probably more important to them. There's really no point in lying about it, as they would see the evidence of how it spreads immediately anyway. As for the other questions, well, we do have an NDA, and the selling price after is something we'd have to think about

[Sharpe]

Might as well be relatively truthful. As Zargon says, they will probably figure it out on their own.

And we do have a NDA so we can't trade it to anyone else until it is done...

[vondrack]

So, a draft of our response to GS (as Zargon & Sharpe suggested, it is almost pure truth ):

Dear Arrian,

Consider this note an official addendum to our existing trade agreement, nullifying the part about swapping our Astronomy for your Banking (and consequently, about you being granted the research of Economy). BTW - the gold balance was, IIRC, never precisely specified, as the Edu/Astro/Banking deal involved several assets difficult to value separately, but 40 gold would probably be quite close.

As for Invention... as you might have guessed, we are getting it from Glory of War - very soon, if their word is to be trusted. It comes with an NDA, the length of which has not been specified - pretty much like the agreement we had on Astronomy/Banking. Neither party expressly forbids a future resale arrangement, but the resale rights are not covered by the initial deal... which makes your last question, about the price, impossible to answer. Once we acquire Invention, we will not be allowed to resell it without seeking GoW's permission.

Best regards,
vondrack

BTW - has anyone noticed GS built The Great Wall in 90AD...?

[vondrack]

Message PMed to Arrian.

[ZargonX]

You know, on second though, I don't think we should make any proclamation of support for GoW-ND anymore. I think we just send our troops over, and when GS sees them, they'll figure it out pretty quick. And, I feel, we should not attack them first under any circumstances. If they really are trying to play a game of WW overload, let's force them to be the aggressor and have to deal with the consequences. Even if it means we have to put a wall of units around a GoW resource or something, let's make sure they know we understand how the game works, too

[vondrack]

Wholeheartedly agreed about not making any proclamations. I am just sick of the debates in the public forum. Just send the units over and do the job.

As for the WW stuff... let's handle that when the time comes. With Bach's and later maybe Sistine's, we should not be all that pressed for happiness...

[Kloreep]

Sharpe and I have been discussing what to research after Music Theory. Banking and Chemistry look like the best bets, and Banking is the more useful of the two; but GS may still be researching it for all we know. I think we should PM them, state we're trying to decide what to research, and ask if they're still going to research Banking or if we should do it.

This also helps keep our relations open. I think we need to get GS to research Invention ASAP. That way we can sell them Gunpowder once they're off Bob.

[Tiberius]

Huh? I thought we wanted to trigger our GA with Magellan's and start building frigates?

Though perhaps building the wonder will take more than researching 2 techs, so we can go for Banking and Navigation only after that. Nevertheless, we want frigates. Besides, how many banks would we build in the next 10 or 20 turns?

[ZargonX]

Yes, I believe Magellan's was decided upon by the team. Does anyone wish to change that plan?

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Also keep in mind our intergroup discussions on the RP war. Had RP not approached us, we likely would have moved to capture some outposts on Eastern Bob from them. Thus we had many knights within boarding range of our fleet. Our invasion force became a defensive force. Convenient, eh?

They are just defending RP. Riiiight

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
Sharpe and I have been discussing what to research after Music Theory. Banking and Chemistry look like the best bets, and Banking is the more useful of the two; but GS may still be researching it for all we know. I think we should PM them, state we're trying to decide what to research, and ask if they're still going to research Banking or if we should do it.

This also helps keep our relations open. I think we need to get GS to research Invention ASAP. That way we can sell them Gunpowder once they're off Bob.

OK, couple of comments:

1) While I fully support the Magellan's trigger and GA in ~30 turns, I am not all that sure that Navigation is THE obvious choice for the next research goal - as we can easily do both Banking and Navigation before Magellan's build would be done.

The benefit of Navigation is that our ships would not have to care about avoiding ocean. The benefit of Banking is that we could build banks... of these two, I believe the first one is better, though. I do not see many cities able to build banks yet (read: many cities with marketplaces), plus we still devote much of our shield production to military builds in those that could build banks. OTOH, our caravels DO have to sail around oceans...

I would not include Chemistry in the list, as Chemistry gives no immediate bonus effect and puts us closer to Military Tradition (which we are not so eager to rush to).

So, eventually, I would still go for Navigation, even if Banking is not all that bad either.

2) I bet my last dime that GS is NOT researching banking. They are not fools. They know they need Invention (& Gunpowder) and they know they are not getting it from us, nor, Voxes, nor RPers, nor their enemies. So they must be going for Invention now - the only question is at what rate.

3) While it may be necessary to provide GS with gunpowder and saltpeter at a (much) later date, that moment would still be very far in the future. Just read the recent alliance chatlog, with a 14-knight GS stack approaching Alamo... I am not overly concerned about GoW and ND falling to GS now, but I would certainly hesitate to consider their eventual victory "imminent".

4) I kinda prefer to NOT maintain contact with GS at this time... the more we talk, the more we may inadvertently disclose (by refusing or avoiding to answer questions or just slipping...). We made it clear we didn't support their extensive involvement in the Bobian war and there is little need to suggest otherwise. They have nothing we need, we have nothing they can buy. So, let's leave it at that. If it ever comes to us aligning with them rather than our current allies, it will be a mutual interest - we will need them just like they will need us (if for nothing else, then because of the saltpeter).

[redstar1]

I agree we have nothing really to talk to GS about, and they are aware of our position towards them and so can't expect much dialogue.

It might however, be worthwhile to pop them a message asking if theres anything they want to discuss/keeping the diplo channels open and that sort of thing.

[Tiberius]

Regarding the diplo contact, I agree with Radek. There is no need to help GS in any way until we are sure they've lost the war, so what should we talk about then?
All what ND+GoW will have after this war (that is far from being over) is a lot of land, that must be settled, and no infrastructure, while GS has the most powerful economy and we have a chance against them on the long run only because a) our teritorry is bigger and b) they are wasteing a lot of resources on this war.

Why should we give them anything ? What difference does Invetion make? If we decide to side them we can gift/sell them Invention and the very next turn Gunpowder.

I'd support a no-talk policy for now. Actually we should be happy that they aren't asking us anything right now, because I don't know what would be asnwering to certain inconvenient questions.

[Sharpe]

Well our furs for dyes trade is up soon - we should renew that.

I think that we should at least find out if they have banking and to see if we can trade for it.

I disagree with a no-talk policy - do we really expect them to agree to ally with us if we are invaded if we maintain this diplomatic silence? I frankly doubt it - they may be sorely tempted to tell us to jump into a nearby lake and try to make a deal with one of the Bob civs...

Besides, right now we are not at war with either GS or RP - so there is no reason not to talk to them - we just need to keep in mind what we don't want to talk to them about ...