The Enlightened Thread

[Kloreep]

What will we research after Theology?

We'll only have ~5 turns before the revolt, then several turns in anarchy. It occured to me that maybe we should run 0% science after Theology until we hit Republic. The saved gold could be partly used to rush important improvements if needed, and we could raise the science slider to 100% for a while under Republic, speeding up our research. What do you think? Cost-effective or not?

[Tiberius]

Read the first post of this thread Kloreep. It is continuously updated (with current and future research data, etc).

As for the 0% science: I don't know. We could save indeed some gold for rushing improvements, but I don't think we could afford to research on 100% for too long in Republic; maybe a few turns. We could however run on 80% or so, losing a few gpt. Besides the science race will slow down a bit I think (because of the war) and there is no need to lose money. We better save it for upgrades.

[Tiberius]

Next tech: Education.
Someone against it?

[vondrack]

Certainly not me.

The question is, though, do we go for Edu immediately after discovering Theo, or do we shut the research down and save money for few turns? Specifically, I am thinking of a cathedral goldrush in Legopolis, as that is - after the Marketplace - the last improvement we will need before being able to start building the Sistine's there.

Gold will also come in handy to upgrade our horses and may also be needed to further support the Voxian war efforts in the future. We know their campaign opening was less than spectacular, GS scoring a couple of lucky hits, including a GL - the war over there will not be easy, though Voxes are gaining more support from other teams.

Not pushing this, as we may very well continue with Edu immediately and spend few turns hoarding gold after discovering it or in the middle of the research, when and IF we actually get in need of some more gold.

[Tiberius]

Another alternative would be to research on less than 100% from now on. With more and more temples this will become shortly a must, or we will lose too many gpt. I'd propose an 80% research. This would slow our research down with 3 or 4 turns for Education, while the money income would be ~ 10 gpt.

[vondrack]

Not a bad idea. I think we may specify it as "the maximum research rate that still yields at least 10gpt into our coffers every turn".

Yes, I like it. Way to go.

[Tiberius]

I know we have just begun researching Education and it will take a while, but is it safe to assume that our next tech will be Music Theory? I mean, if possible, we do want to build Bach's, correct?

[vondrack]

Our next tech should actually be Astronomy, I believe, so that we can start trading (I know Voxes would be very happy to trade horses with us, and GoW would be extremely happy to trade iron with us).

As Legopolis will start with its wonder build in ~15-20 turns, needing about ~30 turns to build a 600-shield wonder, we'll have time enough to do Music Theory after Astronomy (plus, other teams will be highly unlikely to research a non-military, optional tech).

I agree we should build Bach's first (as it helps with the unhappiness w/o any buildings, unlike Sistine's), Sistine's only then (if still available - we should do our best to ensure everybody else agrees to not building it in exchange for something).

[Sharpe]

Operation Industrial Path

We need the following tech only to get to Industrial once we have completed Education:

1) Astronomy 1344 beakers
2) Banking 1248 beakers
3) Engineering (promised by Vox) 864 beakers
4) Invention 1056 beakers
5) Gunpowder 1152 beakers
6) Chemistry 1440 beakers
7) Metallurgy 1536 beakers
8) Physics 1536 beakers
9) Theory of Gravity 1632 beakers
10) Magnetism 1632 beakers

We don't need for Industrial Age:
1) Chivalry 768 beakers
2) Democracy 1632 beakers
3) Economics 1344 beakers
4) Free Artistry 1248 beakers
5) Military Tradition 1536 beakers
6) Music Theory 960 beakers
7) Navigation 1344 beakers
8) Printing Press 864 beakers

We will be 12,576 beakers away from Industrial Age at maximum once we get Engineering and Education.

Any civ will need 5 techs totalling 6,816 beakers to get Military Tradition (and this is without Engineering) in comparison btw.

It may seem hard to believe but it appears as though we already nearly halfway through the middle ages. With all the talk of defense recently, and the concerns of a cavalry attack, perhaps we and our tech allies should concentrate mostly on rushing though these 10 techs in order to trigger Vox's free industrial age tech.

While unfortunately with 1.21 now it is now only a 1/3 chance for nationalism from Vox, the other 2 techs of Steam Power and Medicine also have direct or indirect benefits to us in terms of defense. Steam power for instance would give us Ironclads and leave us much closer to getting those valuable Infantry units. Even Medicine would bring us closer to Sanitation and in our case with the Pyramids allowing us to more quickly get a +50% defense bonus from going above size 12.

Admittedly this is from the Civ 3 manual (I can't honestly remember if this has been changed in the game I have never tested it).

[vondrack]

Just a thought regarding our long-term research plans and research cooperation with Voxes. They informed us that Engineering would be ready in 4 turns - and we should know what new goal we'd prefer them to go for.

My suggestion: Invention.

Reasoning: we plan to do Astronomy, then Music Theory, then most probably Navigation (as we will need Magellan's to trigger our GA... no other fine commercial wonder in sight). Voxes will be going for a 40-turns research, that's for sure. Thus, it would be best to have them researching as expensive tech as possible - 'cause that's the way to maximize the 40-turn research benefit.

Now, only two techs are actually available: Printing Press @ 864 beakers and Invention @ 1056 beakers (we do Astro, GS does Banking). Thus, the better choice is Invention.

There is an added benefit to this: we will not have to trade techs for Invention. We will be able to sell Edu to RPers & ND for some cash (which we will have to do in about ~10 turns, otherwise GoW will sell it once our NDA ends) and we will get Invention from Voxes for free. This will allow us - after doing Astronomy, Music Theory, and Navigation - to switch to the "lower" branch and speed ahead, researching the mandatory techs (there are no more mandatory techs available in the "upper" part of the techtree after Astronomy & Banking).

This also ensures we get to Military Tradition before anyone else (barring GS, perhaps), making us very hard to invade with technically superior units.

And I believe that Voxes would not be too much slower than GoW or whoever else would be going for Inv too. They will hopefully stay out of wars, while others are unlikely to manage to... so others are likely to research at 40-turns, too (with their GNP, it definitely makes sense).

[Tiberius]

Yes, most definitely the best choice for Vox is Invention

In the meantime we could contact ND (perhaps RP too, even though ...) to discuss possible future tech deals. There's no point to have so many teams researching Invention. Of course, if they want to research it for themselves, so be it. But we could maybe convince them to go for PP.

Just a reminder: the first and second post of this thread containes most of the (if not all) pertinent data regarding research and trade.

[Sharpe]

No, we will need Invention in order to get Gunpowder very soon. We can't afford to wait for up to 40 turns (yes I know it will probably be less than that but we or another established civ can research invention much much faster than Vox will be able to.

Vox may rise back up to 8 cities fairly quickly but GoW for instance has 14 cities and cities that are mostly highly developed so I suspect that they will beat Vox to Invention (plus they have the incentive to get there quickly so to get Leo's done first).

Besides, we should be able to trade Astronomy to GoW for Invention as won't they need Astronomy too to trade with us?

[Kloreep]

I don't think both sides need Astronomy, just one.

However, I agree with Sharpe. GoW is going to beat Vox if Vox tries to get Invention, and GoW is one team I want to be trading with. Printing Press would be a better research tech. Sure, it's not quite as costly so 40-turn research may not be as effective, but no one else seems to be going for it, and Vox might actually be able to make some gold off of Religious civs.

[ZargonX]

Having Vox go for Invention would be less than optimal, as I see it. GoW will be beelining for Inv as fast as they can, I think. I do not believe they would start a war until they have Leo's in hand.

Additionally, we've got good trading relations with GoW, and the idea of an Inv-Astr. trade has already been floated, so why sour things by backing out now?

[Tiberius]

I made a (very) rough calculation (somebody who can open the save and has more time and more patience than me can do it better ) to see what that "full speed ahead" could mean for GoW.

Starting from Vondrack's calculation, the 3rd nation's GNP is 61. Presumably this civ must be RP or ND, with their overstreched and highly corrupted empire GoW must be 5th. Therefor their GNP should be between 50 and 60. Let's say 56-58. They are Republic, paying maintenance for military (and they have about the same size mil. as we do) and city improvements (OK, less temples, but probably more barracks) so IMHO they can't research faster than 50%, more likely 40%. Even if they have a library (we are the only civ with 2) that means max. 30-35 beakers per turn.
That means a research period of 1056/35=31 or 1056/30=35 turns.

A 40 turn research would mean a 1056/40=27 beakers science output.

Unless they are prepared to lose a lot of money, GoW can't research Invention much faster than Vox.


Edit: screw this. I started with a wrong figure. Bah ..

On the other hand, it is true that we want to keep GoW happy about their trades with us. This would be the only reason why I'd say that leaving Invention to GoW may be a good idea.