The Enlightened Thread

[redstar1]

I say we can afford to collect the cash for 2 turns. We need all we can get for rushing.

[vondrack]

Agreed, I would collect the cash, too. Investing into the research of Feudalism or Engineering would most likely be suboptimal, as we do not really need those techs right now - unlike Theology that will help us maintain a lead in "our" research branch. Plus, we'll need to secure Theology for Sistine's (even though I admit we will not be able to build it that fast...).

Collecting like 60+ gold during those two turns means we will be able to rush 15+ shields (2 turns) out of the 80-shield Library build in Legopolis. The Library will increase the research output there by up to 6 beakers, which alone makes up for 12 beakers... not mentioning the fact that we will be able to continue using Legopolis as a settler farm a bit longer...

I very much agree that saving up cash is the way to go.

BTW, what I have just written about rush building in Legopolis... once in Republic, it may be a good idea to drop building Mercs there (building them somewhere else, like in Panama), always spending 4-5 turns on building a city improvement, rushing the rest with cash then. This way, Legopolis would still be useful as our primary REXing city, while still benefitting from improvements like Temple, Library, and Marketplace.

Rough estimates (1 shield costs 4 gold):

Marketplace: cost 100, actually built 35 (5 turns), rest rushed for 260 gold
Library: cost 80, actually built 35 (5 turns), rest rushed for 180 gold
Temple: cost 60, actually built 35 (5 turns), rest rushed for 100 gold

Even this is what we would have money enough for (540 gold altogether). Plus, we can improve the whole thing by letting Legopolis grow a bit more (like building a Temple the "hard way" first), letting it operate at pop 5-6 instead of at pop 4-5. Then, it would look like:

Marketplace: cost 100, actually built 40-45 (5 turns), rest rushed for 180-200 gold
Library: cost 80, actually built 40-45 (5 turns), rest rushed for 140-160 gold
Temple: cost 60, actually built 40-45 (5 turns), rest rushed for 60-80 gold

Total gold needed: 380-440

This is by no means a solid proposal, I am just trying to show what kind of gold costs we should expect, if we try keeping Legopolis in REX mode without sacrificing its infrastructure...

[ZargonX]

I would approve collecting money for 2 turns or so. From a military standpoint, it's a good idea to keep funds in our coffers for emergency upgrades (as Vox is clearly learning...)

[lmtoops]

With Republic will need cash for upgrades. So I fully support the two turn delay.

Also, I like the idea of letting Legopolis grow to 5/6. With out going into a simulation, this would be the most cost effective option.

[Kloreep]

Agreed, we can always use more cash.

[Tiberius]

I've edited/updated the second post of this thread with the medieval science chart, modified to contain the beakers cost of the available technologies.

[Tiberius]

Researching on our current potential, it will take ~ 28 turns to discover Theology (maybe less with some libraries and cities built in the meantime).

It means that in the meantime we should start a Sistine prebuild and also we could use the discovery date as our switch year to Republic.

[vondrack]

Tibi, it's time to start thinking about deals on Engineering, Feudalism, and Chivalry.

[Tiberius]

Is anyone researching Engineering?

[Tiberius]

1. What we know/suppose:

ND lack Currency, Republic, Monarchy, and Monotheism (they shot themselves in the foot turning down our Currency deal)
RPers lack Republic & Monotheism (another good news)
GS lack Monarchy
GoW lack Monarchy
Voxes lack Monarchy

We are researching Theology, will be ready in ~ 24 turns

GS is researching Feudalism, ready in ~ 18 turns (cheaper tech+faster research than ours), then go for Chivalry; Being religious, changing to Republic in one turn could speed up their research considerably

GoW: most probably Feudalism->Chivalry, but slower than GS

The Voxes are stockpiling money

The ND are still researching Currency, will receive Constr from GoW, it doesn't really matters what they are doing after, but we will have to find out

RPs? Maybe Engineering, knowing that the others are after something else? Shouldn't be ready earlier than 30 turns; they are paying us 10gpt, plus have a big army; I think their tech slider is at 70 % max.)

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2. Possible trades
(the most obvious and simple ones, not involving future cooperations):

1. Theology to Vox for money (that was a difficult one )

2. Theology to RP for Engineering (there is 100 beakers difference between them, so maybe we could ask for some money, but not too much); or maybe instead of gold, "No Sistine" clause

3. GoW: Theology for Feudalism + Non Agression & Settlement Pact (Riders, ouch!).

4. GS: Theology for Chivalry + gold? ( I suppose they will propose Feud+Chiv for Theol+gold, but if we can do the GoW trade for Feud, then why pay gold to them )

5. ND: I'm a little helpless here. We can try to sell Th. to ND for money or give some other team resell rights; they will research feudalism, I suppose, but they are falling back in tech because their lack of innitiative in active tech trading.

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If we change to Republic after Theology, with the 5 turns delay we should start working on the new tech (Education) aproximately in the same time with GS finishing Chivalry and RP Engineering. I wouldn't dare to plan further, as it depends very much on future events (wars, alliances, etc).

[vondrack]

We do not know for sure, but RPers would be the natural choice - a third team researching Feudalism would be too much... and they don't have Monotheism to start on Theology. So the first thing I'd do would be to talk to RPers about what kind of a deal they'd want for Engineering... I have also suggested the idea of going for Engineering at 1 scientist or 10% to BetaHound... didn't flat refused it...

I would ask GS and GoW what kind of a balance they would ask for a trade involving Theology (40) on our side and Feudalism (32) or Chivalry (32), or Feudalism+Chivalry (64) on their side. I would prefer making separate deals, like trade Theology for Feudalism with GS and Chivalry for Theology with GoW, but that will most probably be difficult to achieve... Even though... if we trade Theology to GS for Feudalism (NDAs in effect) and Theology for Chivalry with GoW (NDAs in effect), both teams might be happy and we'd get two techs for one... securing Engineering from either Voxes or RPers...

So, my ideas:

1) try arranging an Engineering deal with Voxes - let they research it at minimum costs for 40 turns. We'd agree to pay them whatever they'd be spending on the research (or just waive part of the loan). Once they would be over, we'd give them Theology for free.

2) try arranging an Engineering deal with RPers - ask them what they'd wish to get for it. No proposal at this moment - let they start...

3) talk to GoW and GS about what their ideas of a deal involving Feudalism & Chivalry would be. No proposals, let they start...

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
GoW: most probably Feudalism->Chivalry, but slower than GS

We know almost for sure that GoW is after Feudalism and Chivalry. GF expressly stated that in a chat with me.

1. Theology to Vox for money (that was a difficult one )

I do not think this is doable... as Voxes are stockpiling money because of their war plans. They will not be willing to "waste" them on a tech not related to military.

2. Theology to RP for Engineering (there is 100 beakers difference between them, so maybe we could ask for some money, but not too much); or maybe instead of gold, "No Sistine" clause

Good idea re: Sistine, though I would not mention it in the beginning. Let they start suggesting a plain swap, we counter/object pointing out the beaker difference, and eventually reluctantly agree on condition they agree to the "No Sistine" clause. Also, this would require getting Monotheism resale rights from Voxes (should not be difficult). But I would not mention this unless they bring it up - let THEY secure Monotheism for themselves, if they wish to get a favourable deal from us.

3. GoW: Theology for Feudalism + Non Agression & Settlement Pact (Riders, ouch!).

4. GS: Theology for Chivalry + gold? ( I suppose they will propose Feud+Chiv for Theol+gold, but if we can do the GoW trade for Feud, then why pay gold to them )

I would be very wary of making long term deals with GS. As we've found out, they're greedy bastards. It is best to deal with them when they are under pressure... as there will be more than one team with Feu+Chiv and we will not need these techs too fast, the price will most probably go down.

I would pretty much prefer making a long-term deal with GoW, trading Theology+gold for Feu+Chiv. They should be aware of that GS will get it faster, so getting a deal with us might make them be reasonable about the gold balance.

If we change to Republic after Theology, with the 5 turns delay we should start working on the new tech (Education) aproximately in the same time with GS finishing Chivalry and RP Engineering. I wouldn't dare to plan further, as it depends very much on future events (wars, alliances, etc).

Agreed, Education is our natural next choice.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
So the first thing I'd do would be to talk to RPers about what kind of a deal they'd want for Engineering... I have also suggested the idea of going for Engineering at 1 scientist or 10% to BetaHound... didn't flat refused it...
...
1) try arranging an Engineering deal with Voxes - let they research it at minimum costs for 40 turns. We'd agree to pay them whatever they'd be spending on the research (or just waive part of the loan). Once they would be over, we'd give them Theology for free.

2) try arranging an Engineering deal with RPers - ask them what they'd wish to get for it. No proposal at this moment - let they start...

I don't know; why would we make deals for engineering with 2 teams? If the RP agrees to trade Eng. for Th, than it's a good deal. So I say, talk with the RP first, and only if it fails, talk with Vox

I would prefer making separate deals, like trade Theology for Feudalism with GS and Chivalry for Theology with GoW

as opposed to my proposal?! I was suggesting the exact same thing. ( edit: no wait, I was suggesting the opposite: Feud with GoW and Chiv with GS. The idea is that I'd like to make the deal with GoW now and wait to make it with GS when they will be close to finish Chivalry)

As for the balance payment, like I said I wouldn'task for money from GoW but a Non-agression Pact, while I'd ask for money from GS.

3) talk to GoW and GS about what their ideas of a deal involving Feudalism & Chivalry would be. No proposals, let they start...

I wouldn't talk with the GS about this deal, yet. I know what their proposal will be: We shouldn't trade Theology with Bob, but trade it (plus money) for Feud+Chivalry.

[Tiberius]

Ahh, I suppose we were crossposting from the beginning.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Ahh, I suppose we were crossposting from the beginning.

Yes.

I was giving more options to think about - we, of course, need only 1 deal per tech. I would not strongly prefer RPers over Voxes though... whoever offers the best deal, gets it...