The Enlightened Thread

[lmtoops]

We will gladly trade with the RPers for lots of $$$.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
Good proposal.

As I just mentioned in the chat, we should be sure to offer these techs for sale to the RPers. Our relations may be cool and they may have no research effort to contribute to the medieval jump, but our Carthage treaty did specify some tech dealing, and we should live up to that.

No problem with that. The treaty however does not specify WHEN we are supposed to trade the techs to them... plus, the price is supposed to be "lower" than for other teams... but if we trade our techs mostly for other techs, then we are quite free to set prices whatever we see "fair".

I said it in the chat and will repeat it here again... I do not mind trading with RPers as long as WE have the upper hand. I see no reason to deny our techs to them, but I can see no reason to include them in our principal tech deals as outlined above.

[lmtoops]

Are these scheduled chats? I don't just hang around any chat room (just not my idea of fun). But would gladly get involved in topic specific chats.

I guess I'm feeling a bit left out (I hear the violins playing and lot of crying).

I would enjoy chatting about legoland topics, but I need to know when they occur. If I have to wait around on-line for an impromptu chat....then I'll pass.

[Kloreep]

They're pretty much spontaneous. I generally log on once I've read the forum, and stay on till I've logged off poly; sometimes discussion occurs, sometimes not.

We could try to schedule chats, though. Sometime on NA friday or saturday evening could work.

[Tiberius]

I'll start my observations in reverse order:

4. Great deal. I forgot about the Voxes getting a free tech.

3. Obviously it is better not to ask for money if they agree with our trade with the Voxes.

Actually, 3 and 4 can be combined in a threesome deal: on turn X, we deliver Construction + Currency, the GS delivers Republic, while the turn after, Voxes gives both of us us a free tech plus some cash (they could stay on research 0 from now on until then). The cash part is not that important, but it'd be unfair if they stockpiled cash 12-15 turns without sharing a part of it. Either this combined treaty or 3 and 4 separately, but I think this part can be already offered to the GS (we can ask them if they want to make it threesome).

2. That's in essence what I suggested, only you've added Currency in the deal. If we keep researching Currency, that's the way to go. I thought about the timing too, but I'm not sure if they will want to wait that much (GS will have Republic in ... like 18 turns?).

1. About this one, I have the same suspicion as Sharpe: it won't last that long. First of all, I really doubt that ND would be so many turns away from Currency as suggested. That would mean that they are researching on aprox. 50-60%, which I really doubt. Once Currency will be here, it will be very difficult to hold on the teams. I'd say 12 to 15 turns. However, being the only one with Construction, it might succed.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by lmtoops
Are these scheduled chats? I don't just hang around any chat room (just not my idea of fun). But would gladly get involved in topic specific chats.

I guess I'm feeling a bit left out (I hear the violins playing and lot of crying).

I would enjoy chatting about legoland topics, but I need to know when they occur. If I have to wait around on-line for an impromptu chat....then I'll pass.

Leo, the chat usually occurs between like 8pm to 3am GMT... it is never scheduled, though. I am hanging in the chatroom almost all the time (as is redstar), so whoever comes there, is able to have a nice chit-chat at least with me.

Sometimes, usually when big things happen, more people gather there and start discussing things.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
1. About this one, I have the same suspicion as Sharpe: it won't last that long. First of all, I really doubt that ND would be so many turns away from Currency as suggested. That would mean that they are researching on aprox. 50-60%, which I really doubt. Once Currency will be here, it will be very difficult to hold on the teams. I'd say 12 to 15 turns. However, being the only one with Construction, it might succed.

I believe that the fact we will be the only team with Construction makes it quite safe to assume we will be able to delay the world going medieval times at least for the number of turns it would otherwise take GoW to research Construction on their own. Irrespective of whether we can get GoW to agree to the deal we propose here or not, nobody would be able to get Construction faster then them - everybody else is either researching something else ATM or not researching at all:

GoW: researching Construction, should be done no earlier than in 15 turns
ND: researching Currency, thus unable to get Construction soon enough to throw our plan off the balance; if Steve read the map correct, their maximum research output may be like 20 beakers per turn... and if they are not researching at full speed (may be the case, as they need cash to get other techs), the info we got from the mysterious GS may very well be correct. And even if they are done with Currency earlier, they would still be unable to get Construction prior to GoW...
RPers: going for the Monarchy (at least that is what they claim - if not, fvck them, since they'd be blatantly lying to us)
Voxes: too weak research-wise to be faster than GoW
GS: researching Republic, highly unlikely to get it earlier than in 15 turns

So, I would really assume safe to expect we would be able to hold everybody off for at least the number of turns we agree upon with GoW (re: the sale of the Construction to them). That should allow us to have a nice little headstart (3-5 turns) on Engineering, probably, finishing it just about when someone else finishes Feudalism (Feu is slightly cheaper than Eng), giving us another great opportunity to cooperate - we go for the Invention then, the other team goes for the Chivalry. Not mentioning that Voxes may go after Monotheism, trading it to us for Engineering and some cash.

Well, I believe that we shoud start rolling!

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
So, I would really assume safe to expect we would be able to hold everybody off for at least the number of turns we agree upon with GoW (re: the sale of the Construction to them).

I agree on that. My concern is the timing with the GS. Should we make the exchange with GoW in 15 turns and GS discovering the Rep. in 18 turns, they will be the last team to advance to the next age, and they won't be very happy about this. Plus, the ND and especially the RP, once they find out we have Constr, will pressure us for a deal. I really don't want to make the GS the last team to get these techs.

May I suggest this schedule, to make GS happy and grateful:

1. We agree with the GoW on the number of turns for the tech-for-money deal (say 15) and on turn 15 we grant them Currency+Construction, while they give us, say, 200-250 gold (maybe a world map, too ). (how much can they save/turn? 24? that would be 360 gold in 15 turns; half of it is 180, plus 60 for Currency-> 240) They should be happy with this deal: they get Constr+Currency+at least 100 gold. Of course, no whoring clause.

2. On the same turn when we give Constr and Currency to GoW, we gift them to the GS and Luxes (we have to, to let Vox advance to the next age and get their free tech).

3. Next turn, Vox gift us and GS Monotheism (isn't this their free tech?) plus 2/3 (1/3+1/3) of the money they made in the meantime

4. GS gift us and to the Voxes the Republic when they are ready with it.

Other than that, do you agree with the proposed 3some treaty, with the GS and Vox? It could mean some extra cash and would sound great: all of us working together, closely cooperating for our common purpose: to avoid a strong Bob?

[vondrack]

I would first try finding out what is the GS's ETA for Republic... it should be possible to fine tune the deals so that everything happens within two turns, possibly.

The problem with your plan is that letting GS enter the medieval times prior to them finishing the research on the Republic is almost as good as waiting for the Republic deal without giving them the techs in advance. They would still not be able to start researching medieval techs in time, so that would most probably be a big problem for them.

I believe we should try making a deal with GoW that will make them stockpile cash until GS is done with the Republic. Even if they enter medieval times few turns later, they should be okay with it, since they will at least save a bit more cash we would not ask for.

We would also promise that we would not let ND & RPers go medieval earlier than our trading partners, of course.

So, I believe that the precise timeline might be:

GoW
1) as soon as we get Currency, we sell it to GoW for 60 gold (no whoring clause included)
2) one turn before GS is done with Republic, GoW offers us gold for Constr+Republic (not accepting the deal yet), we counter by throwing in Construction and accepting, they accept on the next turn (on the turn GS discovers Rep)
3) we gift Rep to GoW on the very turn we get it from GS (means GoW would get it one turn after it is discovered)

GS
1) as soon as we get Currency, we gift it to them (no whoring clause included)
2) one turn prior to them discovering Republic, we gift them Construction
3) as soon as they get Republic, they gift it to us (and Voxes, probably), granting us the eternal exclusivity to trade it to GoW & RPers

Voxes
1) as soon as we get Currency, we gift it to them (no whoring clause included)
2) one turn prior to GS discovering Republic, we gift them Construction (they may pay us & GS whatever we settle on... I would be okay even with no cash, as the medieval free tech is quite a big deal, but that's a minor detail only at the moment)
3) on the next turn, they gift us (and GS, probably) Monotheism (no whoring clause included)

We may ask for a no-whoring clause on Construction, too... not sure about that ATM.

I would leave it up to GS & Vox to arrange their Rep for Monotheism trade.

[Tiberius]

It could work... but we need to find out the ETA for Republic. The GoW would be happy to wait a few more turns if we throw in the Republic, too. But that means more cash than only 50% of their waiting time (Republic + Construction + Currency means ~ 1500 gold; selling these techs for 200 gold is like gifting them).

I agree on the GS part.

As for the Voxes, maybe you're right about the no-money clause. A little help doesn't hurt, when the GS are probably already too powerful compared to them.

All treaties must contain a clause that they won't trade with the ND for Currency, even if they discover it before us.

Do you mind to wright down the exact instructions for the ambassadors in the FA thread? I wouldn't like to ruin everything with my writing style Besides, the final form of the plan is at most 25% mine; rest is yours (maybe even 10-90; not that it matters)

[vondrack]

Well, as we would be giving everybody but GoW Currency effectively for free (at that very moment, not considering future consequences), I do not think they would trade for it with ND, even if ND discovered it few turns earlier.

GoW would be told/obliged to not trade for Currency with ND. As we would have the upper hand thanks to having Construction, I believe they would agree.

DeepO of GS was PMed by redstar, the PM outlining basics of this deal, asking for a chat to be arranged. GhengisFarb of GoW was PMed by me, the PM outlining the very basics of the deal, asking for a chat to be arranged. I believe we should contact Voxes only after GS agrees (generally) to take the deal.

Once we know GoW and GS are basically happy about the deal, we would put/discuss the exact treaty wordings together, finalize the deal with Voxes, and let everything else to ambassadors.

Sorry for taking over, q_m & Zargon, but time is of crucial importance now - every single turn GoW wastes beakers researching the Construction hurts. The save is almost with us again, so we need to act fast.

[Tiberius]

Hmm, did you send the PMs before discussing the treaties in the forum? I'm not very happy about this, you know ...

Anyway, sorry for the late idea, but don't you think we could ask the GoW one future tech in return for the Republic? Like Chivalry ? (and less money, acoordingly) Maybe they'd agree. They could save more money this way, and they may prefer to stockpile cash for upgrades (the Riders are coming * ouch * ). It'd be a great treaty for them, even so. I don't know by head exactly how expensive Chivalry is, but it shouldn't be too expensive.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Hmm, did you send the PMs before discussing the treaties in the forum? I'm not very happy about this, you know ...

PMs were sent around 11:40am GMT today, after discussing the idea here and getting the input/approval of yours, ZargonX, Kloreep, lmtoops, and Sharpe. This was too big to act without any consultations, but urgent enough to act as fast as possible. I hope this is ok.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Anyway, sorry for the late idea, but don't you think we could ask the GoW one future tech in return for the Republic? Like Chivalry ? (and less money, acoordingly) Maybe they'd agree. They could save more money this way, and they may prefer to stockpile cash for upgrades (the Riders are coming * ouch * ). It'd be a great treaty for them, even so. I don't know by head exactly how expensive Chivalry is, but it shouldn't be too expensive.

Well, I would not push GoW... they might mess things up if they decide to keep researching Construction or trade for Currency with ND... they would be able to finish it in like 15 turns now (after we lowered the beaker cost by popping it out of the hut), messing up with the rest of our trade plan. Let them be very happy about the deal... shoud also help us keep them off Legos. We may just very politely point out that it would make us happy if they refrain from exploring around our landmass... Do not forget that they end up with one tech less (Monotheism), so the whole deal should have an "extra" for them, too (in this case, the cash they will likely have to spend on getting Monotheism).

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
PMs were sent around 11:40am GMT today, after discussing the idea here and getting the input/approval of yours, ZargonX, Kloreep, lmtoops, and Sharpe. I hope this is ok.

OK

[Tiberius]

It is about time to decide what are we going to research after Currency.

The ETA for Currecy is turn 82. Our choices:

1. Start researching Republic on 100%
Pro: -
Con: there is a probability of 99% that we will get it from GS

2. Start researching Feudalism on 100%
Pro: - good trading material if we discover it first
Con: - almost for sure the warmonger teams will go for Feud, so can buy it later from them. We don't really need it, since we don't have to upgrade the mercs. to pikemen.

3. Start researching Engineering on 100%
Pro: good trading value; opens the way to Invention
Con: the RPs may accept our Currency+Constr for Eng. treaty;

4. Put the research slider on 0 and gift Constr+Currency to GS. On turn 83 they gift them to Vox, who going medieval o turn 84 will get and gift us Monotheism. Start researching Theology on 100% starting with turn 84
Pro: - we will make some nice amount of money in those 2 turns; Theology is required for the Sistine
Con: - we lose 2 turns of research; we depend on what GS is doing. They may stall the deal with Vox, delaying us too